|
|
|
|
jacques
Apr 4, 2011, 9:51 PM
Post #1 of 67
(14258 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2008
Posts: 318
|
(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) I heard about "go/no go decision" in a TV program on the Apollo mission. The NASA made a go/no go check up for each parts of the trip to the moon. What is a go/no go decision? It is a question you ask to yourself before you make an action. When the answer is positive, you go for it. It is a decision to continue the mission or to come back. What can be a go/no go decision in climbing? In sport, the climber looks for a bolt and clips it. They never, and cannot, test the bolt. The climber does not take a decision. They go/go to be at the top of the route In trad, the climber has to decide many thinks. For example, the climber put is first piece of pro after the belay and are in a rest place. He has to take some of these decisions: 1- Do I see where I can place the next pro? Go/no go...if I cannot see it: 1a-where is the highest point I can climb before bailing? 1b- my pro is it in the good position for a fall in that direction 1c Can I go looks Go/no go 2- Can I see the sequence of movement to the next pro? Go/no go...If I cannot see it: 2a- Do I see the holes? If not can, I look and come back to my stance? 2b- Can I divide the sequence in two or three sequences with a rest for each? 2c- Will I be injuring if I fall? 2d- Can I go take a look? 3- Do I know all the movement of the sequence? go/no go.... a- If I have more than one technique possible 3a- Will I be injure with the first technique 3b- Will I be injure with the other technique 3c- Which technique is safer go/no go b- If I can not see the technique 3a- Can I go looks and come back? 3b- Can I fall safely? 3c- Do I want to try? go/no go With that definition, the difference between trad and sport is not just using pro, but also a game where you have to take decision and gain confidence on yourself. Nobody can tell you if you are right or wrong, it is pure fun. The goal is not to reach the top of an hard climb, but to place good pro and safe move without previous knowledge. What about sport climber who climb the route by the top, decide of the sequences and clean the place where they want to place a pro. Did they have to take decision? In my opinion, they do not. They have to remember what they have done the day before. Placing pro whatever it is possible is not taking decision too. So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?
|
|
|
|
|
TheRucat
Apr 4, 2011, 10:30 PM
Post #2 of 67
(14197 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 234
|
jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) I think its going to take longer than that..
|
|
|
|
|
redonkulus
Apr 4, 2011, 10:33 PM
Post #3 of 67
(14193 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2010
Posts: 216
|
Maybe about the gear placement stuff, but all of the stuff about movement, sequences, holds, all are true for sport as well. You can have clipped a bolt above a ledge, climbed a little past it, and seen that the next move was a hard one. Do you go for it, even though if you blow the move, you risk hitting the ledge? Or do you down climb, try and find another way to do it, or save it for another way. I don't think the distinction between trad and sport is so simple that you can state "In trad, climbers make decisions. In sport, climbers make no decisions" which is what you seem to be saying. Yes, there do tend to be, in my mind, more decisions and calculations that you must make for trad than for sport, however.
|
|
|
|
|
justroberto
Apr 4, 2011, 11:16 PM
Post #4 of 67
(14154 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876
|
jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) No, that won't be necessary. You're not Derrida.
jacques wrote: So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade? No, that would be an inaccurate, oversimplified, and useless distinction. Why do you care anyways?
(This post was edited by justroberto on Apr 4, 2011, 11:17 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Apr 5, 2011, 12:13 AM
Post #5 of 67
(14108 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
justroberto wrote: jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) No, that won't be necessary. You're not Derrida. HA!
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Apr 5, 2011, 1:35 AM
Post #6 of 67
(14048 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) You know, if I have to formalize my thought patterns to this degree to stay safe while climbing (under any discipline) maybe I should take up a simpler past time.
|
|
|
|
|
jacques
Apr 5, 2011, 1:40 AM
Post #7 of 67
(14042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2008
Posts: 318
|
redonkulus wrote: Maybe about the gear placement stuff, but all of the stuff about movement, sequences, holds, all are true for sport as well.[..] I don't think the distinction between trad and sport is so simple that you can state "In trad, climbers make decisions. In sport, climbers make no decisions".[..] Yes, there do tend to be, in my mind, more decisions and calculations that you must make for trad than for sport, however. Thanks for your answer. It is difficult to explain that trad is fun when sport said that we climb easy think. Of course, I said that both take decision, but I think that the decision they take in sport are not a go/no go decision. In sport, it is the danger to fall on a ledge (your example)or the mistake to understand a move which create a reaction about his safety when the climber is far from a bolt (otherwise, take is the solution). In trad, it is at the begining of each sequences of move he have to take a go/no go decision. When they try a move with the danger of a fall, they already accept the risk and consequences. Anyone think that "more decisions and calculations that you must make for trad than for sport" and that the distinction between trad and sport are more complex than a go/no go decision. How can we improve the distinction? (Note, it is not a discussion on why should we have a distnctio)
(This post was edited by jacques on Apr 5, 2011, 1:48 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
el_layclimber
Apr 5, 2011, 2:56 AM
Post #8 of 67
(13997 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2006
Posts: 550
|
notapplicable wrote: justroberto wrote: jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) No, that won't be necessary. You're not Derrida. HA! His name is Jacques.... But I don't know if the differance between trad and sport is so great.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Apr 5, 2011, 4:43 AM
Post #9 of 67
(13947 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
jacques wrote: (please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying) I heard about "go/no go decision" in a TV program on the Apollo mission. The NASA made a go/no go check up for each parts of the trip to the moon. What is a go/no go decision? It is a question you ask to yourself before you make an action. When the answer is positive, you go for it. It is a decision to continue the mission or to come back. What can be a go/no go decision in climbing? In sport, the climber looks for a bolt and clips it. They never, and cannot, test the bolt. The climber does not take a decision. They go/go to be at the top of the route In trad, the climber has to decide many thinks. For example, the climber put is first piece of pro after the belay and are in a rest place. He has to take some of these decisions: 1- Do I see where I can place the next pro? Go/no go...if I cannot see it: 1a-where is the highest point I can climb before bailing? 1b- my pro is it in the good position for a fall in that direction 1c Can I go looks Go/no go 2- Can I see the sequence of movement to the next pro? Go/no go...If I cannot see it: 2a- Do I see the holes? If not can, I look and come back to my stance? 2b- Can I divide the sequence in two or three sequences with a rest for each? 2c- Will I be injuring if I fall? 2d- Can I go take a look? 3- Do I know all the movement of the sequence? go/no go.... a- If I have more than one technique possible 3a- Will I be injure with the first technique 3b- Will I be injure with the other technique 3c- Which technique is safer go/no go b- If I can not see the technique 3a- Can I go looks and come back? 3b- Can I fall safely? 3c- Do I want to try? go/no go With that definition, the difference between trad and sport is not just using pro, but also a game where you have to take decision and gain confidence on yourself. Nobody can tell you if you are right or wrong, it is pure fun. The goal is not to reach the top of an hard climb, but to place good pro and safe move without previous knowledge. What about sport climber who climb the route by the top, decide of the sequences and clean the place where they want to place a pro. Did they have to take decision? In my opinion, they do not. They have to remember what they have done the day before. Placing pro whatever it is possible is not taking decision too. So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Apr 5, 2011, 7:17 AM
Post #10 of 67
(13907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454
|
I think it's obvious that climbing a well-bolted sport route doesn't require the same number of critical decisions that have to be made on a trad route. Establishing a well-bolted sport route, on the other hand, requires many critical decisions but you have more time to make them.
|
|
|
|
|
rangerrob
Apr 5, 2011, 1:01 PM
Post #11 of 67
(13847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2003
Posts: 641
|
I think I understand what jacques is trying to say here. Being primarily a trad climber, the few times I have done a bolted route I have found myself hesitating between bolts, as if I were scanning for the next placement. I have since realized that the key to success for me on a bolted route is to just climb to the next bolt. It's hard for me to drop that constant scanning for gear. RR
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Apr 5, 2011, 1:36 PM
Post #12 of 67
(13819 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
But you sort of substitute scanning for clipping holds/body position when you sport climbing in place of looking for a spot to place gear. Of course having a position to place the gear from is a given in trad but you tend to focus on just seeing if there is a placement - if you think there is you are likely to go for it and worry about the implementation when you get there. My go/no-go considerations tend to be more emotional - which is not a good thing. How badly will I get broken if I go and fail vs. how badly will I feel if I bail.
|
|
|
|
|
currupt4130
Apr 5, 2011, 4:17 PM
Post #13 of 67
(13775 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2008
Posts: 515
|
Placing gear/clipping bolts are all actions that are just part of the clmbing process. It's all situational and there are no set rules to evaluate each situation. The only things to consider are: Will the gear below be keep me out of danger? Is the gear below me good? The second is ALMOST always negligible in sport climbing. The first varies inversely with the distance from the last bit of protection in MANY, but NOT ALL cases. The more distance you put between you and the bolt or your last piece the more force you tend to apply to that piece and the longer you fall. Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time.
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Apr 5, 2011, 4:19 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Apr 5, 2011, 4:42 PM
Post #14 of 67
(13758 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
currupt4130 wrote: Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time. Gee that's good to know. The next time I am way run out on some featureless face I'll just choose "place".
|
|
|
|
|
currupt4130
Apr 5, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #15 of 67
(13747 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2008
Posts: 515
|
olderic wrote: currupt4130 wrote: Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time. Gee that's good to know. The next time I am way run out on some featureless face I'll just choose "place". The choice starts when you leave the ground. You've already made the decision that you're not going to place gear in that stretch of the climb. It's something you (should have) taken into account before putting yourself in that situation. And please note that I said "most" of the time.
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Apr 5, 2011, 4:53 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jacques
Apr 5, 2011, 6:02 PM
Post #16 of 67
(13689 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2008
Posts: 318
|
currupt4130 wrote: The only things to consider are: Will the gear below be keep me out of danger? Is the gear below me good? [...} Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time. old eric: place instead of take... that's a good one. corrupt, do I understand that you said that you climb and when you are in danger of a fall, you look below you and if the guy which place the bolt did a bad job, you are going to die if you fall. If not, what can you do for it when you are above the bolt? I use the fall factor to evaluate the maximum distance of the other pro high above me. I use a fall factor of 0.5 and place to pro in a row if I decide to run it out. I scan all possibility, even the one when there is no place for a gear. At that moment, I already guested the forces my last pro can hold before poping out. I already decide where I am going to fall and I never look below me after (I'm to scary), except if my partner warn me of a zipper effect. as Olderic said, now it is emotional. Do I understand that at the bolt, you look the next one and go to it. In your way, up, you look donw for a safe fall without previous thinking? Is it happen to someone who go for it and didn't find any good pro and cannot bail? What is your opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Apr 5, 2011, 6:59 PM
Post #17 of 67
(13645 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
i do the same on sports ... except your looking for a clipping position where you wont pump out from hopefully ...
|
|
|
|
|
milesenoell
Apr 5, 2011, 7:07 PM
Post #18 of 67
(13639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 1156
|
I really enjoy the fact that I don't have such an explicit thought process when I climb. Silencing the voice in my head and thinking far less in language is one of the wonderful things about climbing, for me.
|
|
|
|
|
currupt4130
Apr 5, 2011, 7:08 PM
Post #19 of 67
(13636 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 7, 2008
Posts: 515
|
Maybe I was a little understated. When I said "will the gear below hold" I was hinting at taking in the entire circumstance of gear before, now, and in the future of the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
justroberto
Apr 5, 2011, 7:26 PM
Post #20 of 67
(13624 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876
|
jacques wrote: currupt4130 wrote: The only things to consider are: Will the gear below be keep me out of danger? Is the gear below me good? [...} Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time. old eric: place instead of take... that's a good one. corrupt, do I understand that you said that you climb and when you are in danger of a fall, you look below you and if the guy which place the bolt did a bad job, you are going to die if you fall. If not, what can you do for it when you are above the bolt? I use the fall factor to evaluate the maximum distance of the other pro high above me. I use a fall factor of 0.5 and place to pro in a row if I decide to run it out. I scan all possibility, even the one when there is no place for a gear. At that moment, I already guested the forces my last pro can hold before poping out. I already decide where I am going to fall and I never look below me after (I'm to scary), except if my partner warn me of a zipper effect. as Olderic said, now it is emotional. Do I understand that at the bolt, you look the next one and go to it. In your way, up, you look donw for a safe fall without previous thinking? Is it happen to someone who go for it and didn't find any good pro and cannot bail? What is your opinion. Look, the distinction of a "trad climber", so to speak, is the ability to walk up to some piece of rock that he knows nothing about, look it over a bit, and decide whether or not he can (or is willing to try to) get up it using his available skills, tools, and knowledge. Yes, it's a binary decision, but bolt clippers have that same decision to make about whether or not they're going to attempt some sport route even if they know every single move on it. All of this obsessing over falling, estimating safe fall zones and distances, pretending that you know what your fall factor is and how much each placement can hold at any point on a climb, and generally overthinking the shit out of everything has absolutely nothing to do with traditional climbing. Hell, some people do that just building a toprope anchor. You're confusing climbing on gear with traditional climbing, and trying to rationalize something that doesn't need it.
|
|
|
|
|
jacques
Apr 6, 2011, 2:47 AM
Post #21 of 67
(13518 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2008
Posts: 318
|
justroberto wrote: Look, the distinction of a "trad climber", so to speak, is the ability to walk up to some piece of rock that he knows nothing about... All of this obsessing over falling, estimating safe fall zones and distances, pretending that you know what your fall factor is and how much each placement can hold at any point on a climb, and generally overthinking the shit out of everything has absolutely nothing to do with traditional climbing. I am confuse. I didn't know that the first five edition of mountaineering freedom of the hill was wrong. In the fifth edition, they have a graph where we have the relation between the fall factor and the force on the pro. But, you right, they are all wrong. Fifty years of climber, five generation do all wrong. I agree that in the last three edition, 6 to 8, the mentality change. They explain a procedure: you clip and go. I am of the old generation. why is it so bad to have a definition of trad climbing that we can be proud of it? if I swing in a lake an get out of the water on a rock: I am trad climbing with your definition
|
|
|
|
|
jbro_135
Apr 6, 2011, 3:01 AM
Post #22 of 67
(13513 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 662
|
why is it so important to have a definition of trad climbing to make you feel important?
|
|
|
|
|
justroberto
Apr 6, 2011, 6:22 AM
Post #23 of 67
(13481 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876
|
jacques wrote: justroberto wrote: Look, the distinction of a "trad climber", so to speak, is the ability to walk up to some piece of rock that he knows nothing about... All of this obsessing over falling, estimating safe fall zones and distances, pretending that you know what your fall factor is and how much each placement can hold at any point on a climb, and generally overthinking the shit out of everything has absolutely nothing to do with traditional climbing. I am confuse.I didn't know that the first five edition of mountaineering freedom of the hill was wrong. In the fifth edition, they have a graph where we have the relation between the fall factor and the force on the pro. But, you right, they are all wrong. Fifty years of climber, five generation do all wrong. I agree that in the last three edition, 6 to 8, the mentality change. They explain a procedure: you clip and go. First, I didn't say anything about FOTH or its definition of fall factors. My contention is that if you think that in the field, mid-climb, you are remotely capable of analyzing and accurately calculating fall factors, potential forces on gear, and at what force you can expect your gear to fail in any given fall, then you're living in a complete fantasy land. And if you then consciously use that estimation as the basis for your ensuing climbing decisions, then you're just plain being absurd.
In reply to: I am of the old generation. why is it so bad to have a definition of trad climbing that we can be proud of it? if I swing in a lake an get out of the water on a rock: I am trad climbing with your definition I don't suppose it is bad, but you're falling into the common trap of over-romanticizing the whole idea of placing gear and then climbing above it. Anyway, your definition doesn't mean anything; you're basically saying that traditional climbing is defined by making decisions, which everyone does every hundreds, thousands, millions of times a day to some degree, even while doing mundane non-climbing tasks. I know; it's a difficult concept. If I decide that making eggs for breakfast is a no-go because I have to make it to work on time instead, does that mean I'm doing some gnarball tradding? No? It has to be more critical? What deciding to jump out of a third story window? Oh, it has to be climbing-related, too? Let's say I'm clipping bolts at Rumney when a lightning storm rolls in and I decide to keep climbing anyway. Am I now "trad" climbing because I've made a critical climbing decision regarding my safety?
(This post was edited by justroberto on Apr 6, 2011, 6:27 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
JimTitt
Apr 6, 2011, 5:37 PM
Post #24 of 67
(13386 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 1002
|
Trad=Moveable protection Sport=Fixed Protection Seems enough for most of us. Jim
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 6, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #25 of 67
(13369 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
JimTitt wrote: Trad=Moveable protection Sport=Fixed Protection Seems enough for most of us. Jim I don't know. Did you spend at least an hour thinking about Jacque's post before writing like you were asked to? Jay
|
|
|
|
|
|