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wmfork
Jun 28, 2011, 7:20 PM
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Like others said, start with easier routes, not necessaries the easiest in terms of grade, but easy to protect and as clean of a fall line as possible. As far as following a trad leader goes, I'm not sure if I ever gained that much by looking at other people's placements (it only helps so much before you start placing your own gear), but one thing it really helps is getting you used to being in a stance for cleaning or placing gear. The better you get finding/hanging at a stance (something you typically don't need nearly as much in sport climbing), the easier it will be for you to explore good placements.
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stealth
Jun 29, 2011, 1:59 AM
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superchuffer wrote: start by placing knotted ropes, hexes, and tri-cams. you will learn more than that than by using sticky rubber and those cheater cams.
Oh, is that best?
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jacques
Jun 30, 2011, 12:07 PM
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ecade wrote: So what do people recommend as SAFE, ways for a Sport climber to learn Trad?
When I climbed in remote area. Two climbers and nobody else miles a way, I have to make an evaluation of the danger.
First, I evaluate the difficulty of a move and my physical condition/capacity to do a move from zero fall and 100%.
Second, I make an evalution of the consequences of the fall.
after I compare my evaluation with the level of risk acceptable for me.
Actually, I do that instinctively, but when I began, I use more time at each moves to deeply understand what I am doing.
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puravida9539
Jul 2, 2011, 8:31 PM
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This thread appears to have branched into two discussions. 1st, the OP question of how to learn trad. 2nd, whether barn-dooring or flagging is more dangerous.
1. Follow good trad climbers, and when that isn't possible (because there are not any available) top rope aid climb. Bounce test everything vigorously and you will begin to get a feel for good placements. Bounce them really hard. This will help you gain trust in the gear by letting you see how much force it can take.
2. I would think that you would not want to trad climb in places where the holds are likely to break off. If you have to consider whether a barn door out of control would be safer than flagging if the hold breaks, how can you trust your gear in a fall? If the rock is that chossy you might not want to assume that your cams and nuts aren't also going to be breaking rock.
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jacques
Jul 4, 2011, 10:44 AM
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puravida9539 wrote: 1. Follow good trad climbers, and when that isn't possible (because there are not any available) top rope aid climb. Bounce test everything vigorously and you will begin to get a feel for good placements. Bounce them really hard. This will help you gain trust in the gear by letting you see how much force it can take.
I use to place one pro, remove it, place an other, remove it and use the third pro for a same placement. In that way, there is always a bad pro and if you look at it, you will see how they rotate and you are going to fall. Boncing very hard is generally a bad time for the second who have to remove the pro. You can generate 3 or 4 hundred pounds, but never the thousan that a real fall will gave
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ecade
Jul 11, 2011, 8:18 PM
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A Sincere thank you for the time and effort, many of the replies were incredibly helpful.
Yesterday I led my first trad route!!! Onsighted a 5.2, Ya baby I'm hardcore  It was the easiest route (grade wise) I have ever climbed and it was also the scariest and most mentally challenging route I have ever climbed [/laugh]
Blue Eyed, I found your post to be incredibly helpful and inspiring so a special thanks to you.
I'd love any advice anyone can offer for excercises to train myself to find good rest positions and comfy places to plug.
If I can ask, and I know comparing yourself to others is fruitless but it if there is enough data, and that is kept in mind, some interesting conclusions can be drawn.
How long did it take people until they felt confident in being able to look at a crack and know within 1-2 pieces, what type and size pro should be placed. Is this even a goal worth striving towards?
How long did it take people until they felt comfortable falling on their gear?
Just to confirm my thoughts on a matter: Just because an anchor built with gear holds the seconder doesn't mean those placements could hold a leader fall. This is becasue the anchor, if equalized will distribute the weight, and the force of the seconder on the pro is less than that of a fall by the leader. Does direction of pull play a factor too?
Again, sorry to be a nag, but I'm a N00B, thanks again for the advice and support. I love sport , but Trad is rad, its a game of chess with your life on the line, and where you hope your opponent never moves, a true act of humility and patience, and it offers a view!
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superchuffer
Jul 11, 2011, 9:21 PM
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did you wear a helmet, spend over 30 minutes on the route, and take way too much gear? ...these are very important to being a trad
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sbaclimber
Jul 11, 2011, 9:31 PM
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superchuffer wrote: did you wear a helmet, spend over 30 minutes on the route, and take way too much gear? ...these are very important to being a trad
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 11, 2011, 9:49 PM
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ecade wrote: A Sincere thank you for the time and effort, many of the replies were incredibly helpful.
You're welcome!
In reply to: Yesterday I led my first trad route!!! Onsighted a 5.2, Ya baby I'm hardcore It was the easiest route (grade wise) I have ever climbed and it was also the scariest and most mentally challenging route I have ever climbed [/laugh]
Congratulations!
In reply to: Blue Eyed, I found your post to be incredibly helpful and inspiring so a special thanks to you.
Again, you're welcome.
In reply to: I'd love any advice anyone can offer for excercises to train myself to find good rest positions and comfy places to plug.
Finding rests to place gear is no different than finding rests while climbing. Learn to get creative, relax, breathe, be patient, and the rest(s) will come.
In reply to: How long did it take people until they felt confident in being able to look at a crack and know within 1-2 pieces, what type and size pro should be placed. Is this even a goal worth striving towards?
This takes lots and lots of mileage. Also, learn to recognize your rack in relation to your own body parts. For example, for me solid fingers is yellow alien, good hands gold camalot, etc.
In reply to: How long did it take people until they felt comfortable falling on their gear?
Well, to some extent, you should never be comfortable, but you should learn to evaluate each isolated situation. Sometimes the gear is good and the fall is clean, so go for it! Sometimes, you better not fall. Sometimes you may need to back off rather than risk a fall, other times you can work a move taking multiple falls. It all depends.
In reply to: Just to confirm my thoughts on a matter: Just because an anchor built with gear holds the seconder doesn't mean those placements could hold a leader fall. This is becasue the anchor, if equalized will distribute the weight, and the force of the seconder on the pro is less than that of a fall by the leader. Does direction of pull play a factor too?
A leader fall directly on the anchor is the worst type of fall and should be avoided at all costs! But, with that said, you should strive for an anchor that will hold that type of fall. Always build the best anchor you can and as a leader you should protect early and often to avoid the factor 2 fall.
In reply to: Again, sorry to be a nag, but I'm a N00B, thanks again for the advice and support. I love sport , but Trad is rad, its a game of chess with your life on the line, and where you hope your opponent never moves, a true act of humility and patience, and it offers a view!
Remember it's all climbing and if you truly want to be humble than don't think that one form is better than the other. But...if you learn to climb well on gear, than it opens up the possibility of climbing the best routes this country has to offer.
Good luck!
Josh
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ecade
Jul 11, 2011, 9:53 PM
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Wore a helmet, always do feel more confident and I don't hit my head on overhanging rocks if moving too fast with not enough thought (the sport climber in me ;))
Took 10 minutes on route about 20 building anchor and belaying second and rappelling back down
Placed 8 pieces of pro and slung 2 trees route was about 40-50"
Mentor belayed me, used his rack, had every thing except big bros and the kitchen sink. Nuts, off set nuts, micro nut, bd cams, alien small cams, friends, 4 tricams and 5 hexes. 6 slings 8 qd, 4 non lockers for trad slings, webbing and cord for cordellete. It weighed a shit load!
Feedback please and thanks
Dankeshen
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sbaclimber
Jul 11, 2011, 10:16 PM
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ecade wrote: Wore a helmet, always do feel more confident and I don't hit my head on overhanging rocks if moving too fast with not enough thought (the sport climber in me ;))
ecade wrote: Took 10 minutes on route about 20 building anchor and belaying second and rappelling back down
ecade wrote: Placed 8 pieces of pro and slung 2 trees route was about 40-50"
ecade wrote: It weighed a shit load!
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 11, 2011, 10:17 PM)
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cracklover
Jul 11, 2011, 10:21 PM
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I'd love any advice anyone can offer for excercises to train myself to find good rest positions and comfy places to plug.
The very best way is to lead and place a ton of gear. Any other exercise will be significantly worse.
How long did it take people until they felt confident in being able to look at a crack and know within 1-2 pieces, what type and size pro should be placed. Is this even a goal worth striving towards?
Definitely worth striving for. Sorry, don't remember when I "arrived", but at least I can give you one tip: memorize the size of your cams in relation to how your body fits into cracks. For example, I know that for me a blue Alien is tight tips, green is tight fingers, yellow is perfect fingers, red/.5 camalot is rattly fingers, etc on up to fists. That way you know instantly what to reach for.
How long did it take people until they felt comfortable falling on their gear?
That's a tricky question. I'm not *always* comfortable falling. But I started being comfortable sometimes pushing into the zone where I knew I *might* fall if I had a bunch of good gear, my second season leading. But it wasn't until a full 3 1/2 years after I started leading that I took my first lead fall.
Just to confirm my thoughts on a matter: Just because an anchor built with gear holds the seconder doesn't mean those placements could hold a leader fall. This is becasue the anchor, if equalized will distribute the weight, and the force of the seconder on the pro is less than that of a fall by the leader. Does direction of pull play a factor too?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but yes, a leader taking a factor two fall onto the anchor puts more force on it than toproping.
GO
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rescueman
Jul 12, 2011, 12:19 AM
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ecade wrote: Help Convert Me!
You're exactly right - it would require a conversion experience, because Trad climbing is a different religion.
The most dangerous trad climber is one who learned in a climbing gym. The second most dangerous trad climber is one who started on sport routes.
I was fortunate to go from top-roping to seconding to leading in about one year, and have led trad routes for 20 years without taking a leader fall. I didn't start climbing until I was 38 years old, and I've taught many others the joys of climbing.
Climbing traditionally, is not a contest of wills between the climber and the rock. It's a collaborative experience. For me, climbing is a meditation, an experience of practical problem-solving, and a form of dancing on rock (or with rock). It's more about balance and grace than strength, power or speed. It's an entirely different mindset and approach to life than anything called a "sport". It's a way of travel in which the going is better than the getting there.
Once you're in the right mindset for trad climbing, then get behind a good leader and second for as many different climbs as you can. Pay attention to their placements as you clean the route. Ask questions about protecting traverses and how to set up bomber belay anchors. Learn the importance of placing protection more often as you leave a belay station than as you get farther up on rope. Learn how to protect the difficult moves, and when to back off when the angel of your better judgement whispers sweet nothings in your ear.
The goal of trad climbing is to NOT fall, so practice that discipline. Don't feel you have to always push your limits in order to feel good about the climb. Learn how to be thrilled with making a really beautiful ascent rather than a really difficult one.
Be one with the rock and may the Force be with you.
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ecade
Jul 12, 2011, 2:42 AM
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Thanks again everyone for feedback,
Josh: didn't mean to insult sport climbing, I think all types of climbing are great, I know of no sport more personal than climbing, so I wholeheartedly agree, all types of climbing are great if not virtuous in their own right. But I've always been an explorer. I'm canadian but what are these routes you speak of in your country.
Rescueman, if you are right, than I need a lot more feedback and advice and SAFE practice. I learnt to climb indoors some 8 years ago, then started sport climbing and its great but there is much more trad out where I am and I spent years leading canoe trips staring at beautiful rock that I'd love to ascend. I am not looking at giving up Sport, I just want options. And i like being able to push myself physically in sport and push myself mentally in trad. Also, I think trad will very much help my sport climbing.
SBA Climber:
Please advise, if rope is ~150' (50m) why would you stop after 50' (~16m) and build a belay station? To replenish the rack? The route was most likely less than 50' probably 35-40', I have been trying to find route information but this site doesn't have it, and the book for ontario sport climbing is damn old.
I've never climbed a 5.2 before but I thought it was that grade because it had many placement options and had a lot of ledges. There weren't jugs more so nice size cracks. I was able to hand jam a crack and stand on great foot holds to make the majority of my placements, this allowed me to be relaxed while making placements.
Just because of belay partners and life, I only really get outdoors on the weekends, I try to do 2-3 gym sessions during the week. Are there no rest excersises I could do while in the gym?
Regarding the anchors part, ya that was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant was, hypothetically, a placement used for top rop anchor, just becuase the anchor held on the second belay, doesnt mean that if the leader placed, hypothetically, the exact same pro in the exact same size crack in the same integrity of rock, does not mean it would hold a leader fall. I ask as I want to know how to judge a placement to discern whether I could fall on it. Not that I want to fall, but its calming to know that if you should fall you aren't going to deck out. Perhaps this is not possible, but you can atleast ask, i'd prefer not to try.
Thanks again, I really appreciate the advice and feedback.
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sbaclimber
Jul 12, 2011, 7:45 AM
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ecade wrote: SBA Climber: Please advise, if rope is ~150' (50m) why would you stop after 50' (~16m) and build a belay station? To replenish the rack? The route was most likely less than 50' probably 35-40', I have been trying to find route information but this site doesn't have it, and the book for ontario sport climbing is damn old.
Serious -> It sounds like you did just fine for your first time! 
I was only joking around a bit, because you made a typo (" = inches, ' = feet  ), and because I immediately thought of the this pic I took of one my old climbing partners just after he got his first rack of cams :
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healyje
Jul 12, 2011, 8:57 AM
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rescueman wrote: ...and have led trad routes for 20 years without taking a leader fall.
I'm always a bit taken aback by statements like this...
rescueman wrote: The goal of trad climbing is to NOT fall, so practice that discipline.
And to be honest I couldn't disagree more with this statement and absolutely would not counsel anyone to consider not falling a 'discipline'. It maybe a goal or 'discipline' in caving or in rescue - but certainly not in climbing, or at least not any concept of climbing I've ever held.
Now a beginner certainly shouldn't be pitching off routes and, in fact, you shouldn't be pushing it on gear until you are competent and have considerable experience under your belt. But never falling? I'd say that is where the "leader must not fall" tripe should have been rooted out and put down for good once nylon was invented.
I do agree with the "beautiful ascents" comment, but the 'goal' of [trad] climbing is to learn to evaluate, accept and manage risks, not avoid them.
You want to develop and hone your perception and management of risk, physical movement skills, and your technical protection skills as you develop. Keep at that and you'll arrive at a point where you can climb at your limit and sometimes beyond. You'll have successes, short and long falls, and even some epics - and that is what climbing is about, from my perspective anyway.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 12, 2011, 6:33 PM)
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rescueman
Jul 12, 2011, 4:52 PM
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cracklover wrote: rescueman wrote: The most dangerous trad climber is one who learned in a climbing gym. Yeah right. You, sir, are an idiot. GO
Call me what you want, but that's a simple fact. The number of accidents on climbing crags increased with the increasing prevalence and popularity of indoor climbing gyms.
People were learning to climb in highly controlled environments, with no changing weather, no crumbling or flaking rock, no insects or reptiles or lichen, and no need to learn how to set up protection or an anchor or manage different belay situations. So it was easy to develop climbing skill quickly without having any of the necessary associated skills
Then they went to the crags, thinking they could simply do the same level of climbing on real rock in the real world.
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rescueman
Jul 12, 2011, 5:00 PM
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healyje wrote: rescueman wrote: The goal of trad climbing is to NOT fall, so practice that discipline. And to be honest I couldn't disagree more... It maybe a goal or 'discipline' in caving or in rescue - but certainly not in climbing, or at least not any concept of climbing I've ever held.
Sport climbing, however, is a completely different beast. As a sport, the goal is to constantly test one's limits and try to exceed them.
Traditional climbing, like life itself, is a matter of learning to understand and live humbly within one's inherent limits - and to know when one is about to exceed them and then wisely back off.
In reply to: But never falling? I'd say that is where the " leader must not fall" tripe should have been rooted out and put down for good once nylon was invented.
Call it "tripe" if you're unable to understand this spiritual discipline. But believing that we can exceed our natural limitations by "better" technology is exactly why the human race is on the brink of global collapse and possible extinction.
The ancient Greeks understood that all human tragedy is rooted in hubris.
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sungam
Jul 12, 2011, 5:37 PM
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This is my first response to one of your posts, and it might be a little biased because I have already decided that I don't really like you.[Edit to add: okay, I have seen 1, but only 1, post of yours that I thought wat 'aight.]
Are you serious? You don't think that the switchover to nylon kernmantle ropes, the invention of nuts and cams or the use of modern belay devices reduces the seriousness of a trad fall?
Look, I'll give you the "no-fall" rule for MOST alpine routes, but you must be some bumbling 5.6 wallower who has never seen a clean fall if you think that "the leader must not fall" still holds for trad. Either that or you can't place gear for shit.
People take whippers all the time. I would be surprised if there wasn't someone who pushed the boat wayyy the fuck out 15 feet over a cam and whipped each day*.
*Two notes:
When I saty pushed the boat out, I am talking about the difficulty of the route. I am not implying that only a crazy muthafucka would run it out 15 feet.
I mean a person a day, I am not implying that there is some Bob "whipper" Thompson who hucks off at least once a day.
(This post was edited by sungam on Jul 12, 2011, 5:39 PM)
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cracklover
Jul 12, 2011, 5:44 PM
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rescueman wrote: cracklover wrote: rescueman wrote: The most dangerous trad climber is one who learned in a climbing gym. Yeah right. You, sir, are an idiot. GO Call me what you want, but that's a simple fact. The number of accidents on climbing crags increased with the increasing prevalence and popularity of indoor climbing gyms. People were learning to climb in highly controlled environments, with no changing weather, no crumbling or flaking rock, no insects or reptiles or lichen, and no need to learn how to set up protection or an anchor or manage different belay situations. So it was easy to develop climbing skill quickly without having any of the necessary associated skills Then they went to the crags, thinking they could simply do the same level of climbing on real rock in the real world.
Uh huh. If you were right, they would be pitching themselves off crags to their death every weekend.
I could toprope 5.10 in the gym before I learned to lead. I knew that my physical skills were way ahead of my technical skills, so I worked very hard to learn the technical skills and gain the experience I needed to become a competent leader. I'd have to be an idiot not to.
I can see how someone who is lacking intelligence or sound judgment himself could fail to understand that others might make better choices. In short, your conclusions speak more about you than they do about me.
GO
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rescueman
Jul 12, 2011, 5:54 PM
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sungam wrote: Are you serious? You don't think that the switchover to nylon kernmantle ropes, the invention of nuts and cams or the use of modern belay devices reduces the seriousness of a trad fall?
At least you're honest enough to admit to your bias.
But you're not very good at reading comprehension. I didn't say that modern gear doesn't make it possible for people to turn traditional alpine climbing into just another sport to prove how macho they are (women included).
The Yosemite Decimal System of grading climbing routes only went as high as 5.9 until the 60's, because that was considered the most difficult roped free climb that could be done without aid.
Technology allowed more difficult climbs, just as technology allowed us to go to the moon and the bottom of the sea. But I don't think anyone would consider moonflights and deep sea dives to be "traditional".
The differences in opinion and perspective here are because newer generations of climbers have turned "traditional" into "trad", which rhymes with "rad" and means something like "sport".
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JimTitt
Jul 12, 2011, 6:35 PM
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Goog God, now that´s some inane drivel!
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rescueman
Jul 12, 2011, 6:51 PM
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cracklover wrote: I could toprope 5.10 in the gym before I learned to lead. I knew that my physical skills were way ahead of my technical skills, so I worked very hard to learn the technical skills and gain the experience I needed to become a competent leader. I'd have to be an idiot not to. I can see how someone who is lacking intelligence or sound judgment himself could fail to understand that others might make better choices. In short, your conclusions speak more about you than they do about me.
Well good for you. But what you fail to understand is that most people in today's world are "lacking intelligence or sound judgment".
As the saying goes, sound judgement comes from experience - and that means experience in the real world. Not in the virtual world of a climbing gym.
My assessment about the increase in climbing accidents came from discussions with rescue rangers and climbing guides.
But here are some US mountaineering accident statistics (which includes rock climbing):
Not until the 1990s and 2000s did NY State join the western mountain states as the location of most mountaineering accidents. By age, most accidents occur in the 15-30 year age range. More accidents occur on the ascent than on descent (54% to 41%), contrary to popular myth, and 63% occur on rock rather than snow or ice. The largest percentage of injuries are fractures, and most significant contributing causes are climbing unroped (16.9%), exceeding abilities (15.1%) and no or inadequate protection (12%). And the overwhelmingly largest direct cause is "fall or slip on rock".
And from one source on climbing accidents:
"Lack of proper training is the leading cause of climbing accidents, followed by equipment failure or the lack of proper equipment maintenance. Many people simply drive to a climbing area and try their hand at it with little or nothing in the way of training and almost no equipment—and then they are surprised when they suffer an accident."
"Accidents are also caused by simple overconfidence; climbers think they know more than they actually do and suddenly find themselves in a dangerous situation with no idea of what to do."
"Carelessness is another cause of climbing accidents. Equipment must be maintained and checked (and re-checked) before each climb. Carelessness ties in with overconfidence many times. New climbers check and re-check knots and the set up of their belayer…but as climbers gain more experience and become too confident in their climbing abilities, these things tend to become less important – and that’s when accidents happen."
(This post was edited by rescueman on Jul 12, 2011, 6:52 PM)
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healyje
Jul 12, 2011, 7:16 PM
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rescueman wrote: healyje wrote: rescueman wrote: The goal of trad climbing is to NOT fall, so practice that discipline. And to be honest I couldn't disagree more... It's the discipline I learned and nurtured from trad climbing long before I got involved in caving and rescue. And it's the discipline that has been central to alpine climbing since time immemorial.
Again, "the leader must not fall" it's a horribly unfortunate meme that somehow survived in rock climbing far past it's utility. And alpine climbing isn't rock [trad] climbing - it's alpine climbing. Not falling in rock climbing is a highly counterproductive and limiting anti-discipline as far as I'm concerned.
rescueman wrote: Traditional climbing, like life itself, is a matter of learning to understand and live humbly within one's inherent limits - and to know when one is about to exceed them and then wisely back off.
Again, I couldn't possibly or more fundamentally disagree with this statement. In fact, if that were what trad climbing was 'about', or a 'goal' of it, then I would have quit climbing decades ago.
rescueman wrote: Call it "tripe" if you're unable to understand this spiritual discipline. But believing that we can exceed our natural limitations by "better" technology is exactly why the human race is on the brink of global collapse and possible extinction. The ancient Greeks understood that all human tragedy is rooted in hubris.
And I would say that if you've been leading for twenty years and never taken a leader fall then you entirely lack the experience to speak objectively on the matter. And to be exceptionally clear, 'technology' has little to nothing about it. We were pushing and expanding our limits leading on goldline with nothing more than a set of hexs and nuts - and taking solid falls doing it the entire time.
That is how one exceeds one's [current] limits - by learning progressively better physical, emotional, and risk management skills so that you can step out onto harder and harder challenges - often times challenges beyond your current limits. And when you do that, sometimes you fail - if you're pushing your limits a lot you fail and fall, but not always and you'll advance on those gains.
Respond however you will, but I'm here to tell you you chose a exceptionally conservative path in your rock climbing and that has left you entirely bereft of the experience necessary to either state what the 'goal' of 'traditional' climbing is or to have a deep understanding that 'traditional' climbing has advanced by constantly 'surfing' challenges out beyond the edge of certainty and our current limits.
You sum up your own lack of experience best with this quote:
rescueman wrote: Sport climbing, however, is a completely different beast. As a sport, the goal is to constantly test one's limits and try to exceed them.
Sport climbing simply stripped off the technical and emotional challenges leaving the the above-stated 'goal' which has always been at the heart of trad climbing. "Constantly testing one's limits and trying to exceed them" while placing highly technical pro and managing your fear is what has always defined the cutting edge of trad climbing and always will.
I'm glad you found a repose with trad climbing that works for you, but given your choices I'd suggest refraining from attempting to project that experience as what trad climbing has been, is, or should be for others.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 12, 2011, 8:02 PM)
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