"Accidents are also caused by simple overconfidence; climbers think they know more than they actually do and suddenly find themselves in a dangerous situation with no idea of what to do."

My assessment about the increase in climbing accidents came from discussions with rescue rangers and climbing guides.

Well good for you. But what you fail to understand is that most people in today's world are "lacking intelligence or sound judgment".

Call me what you want, but that's a simple fact.

And I would say that if you've been leading for twenty years and never taken a leader fall then you entirely lack the experience to speak objectively on the matter.

That is how one exceeds one's [current] limits - by learning progressively better physical, emotional, and risk management skills

I'm here to tell you you chose a exceptionally conservative path in your rock climbing

Sport climbing simply stripped off the technical and emotional challenges leaving the the above-stated 'goal' which has always been at the heart of trad climbing. "Constantly testing one's limits and trying to exceed them" while placing highly technical pro and managing your fear is what has always defined the cutting edge of trad climbing and always will.

I'm glad you found a repose with trad climbing that works for you, but given your choices I'd suggest refraining from attempting to project that experience as what trad climbing has been, is, or should be for others.

That's just more projection. I know lots of solid trad climbers who started in the gym.

To the OP: Don't let this ass discourage you. The simple fact that you first climbed in a gym does not mean you cannot be a technically and physically solid and proficient trad climber.

That's the same as saying that, if I've been driving for 20 years and have never had an accident, then I lack the experience necessary to speak objectively about driving.

Well, if being able to speak "objectively" about something requires having at some point pushed yourself beyond the boundary of your own capabilities, sure, why not.

That's the same as saying that, if I've been driving for 20 years and have never had an accident...

I think most people would say just the opposite.

But the stage of life we call maturity is about, having learned where those limits are, living responsibly within them.

Do you understand the meaning of "traditional". It's almost synonymous with "conservative".

But the hero's journey and the warrior's creed has always been about confronting our fears and acting responsibly in spite of them.

John Long's 1989 book How to Rock Climb used the term "sport climbing" repeatedly in reference to what is now considered "traditional climbing."

Your perspective is no more legitimate, useful or worthy of teaching to others than mine - which is based on a lifetime of experience, and teaching and guiding of others - adolescent and adult - in both the physical and the spiritual realms.

For climbing, at its best (as with any pursuit in life) is a spiritual endeavor.

You're confusing objectivity with subjectivity.
And your syllogism is false, because your premise - "being able to speak "objectively" about something requires having at some point pushed yourself beyond the boundary of your own capabilities" - is false.

Projection? Hardly. It's from nearly 60 years of living on earth as a close observer of human behavior.

Anyone who calls another names just because they disagree with their statements or because their own limited experience has led them to other conclusions has a lot of growing up to do.

The most dangerous trad climber is one who learned in a climbing gym.

BTW, if it's any consolation, I think the above is the one (and perhaps the only) area where you and HEALYJE agree!

Bad analogy - a better analogy would be never going out surfing on a big day because you either always play it safe, you lack confidence in your abilities, or are afraid to confront the unknown.

Another analogy would be a soldier who served stateside, and never saw battle, but is attempting to define for new recruits what 'soldiering' and it's 'goals' are all about

Maybe among the general population...

Here you confuse climbing with suburban life and career. That you've never risked in climbing in no way represents climbing responsibly or even living responsibly, but rather safely and timidly while making explicit trade offs that always err on the side of caution and 'safety'.

'Trad' is an unfortunate term

Not really into heros or warriors, but I can categorically state that definition is bullshit - particularly the "acting responsibly" part. 'Acting bravely' is how that should read - as in knowing it's time to rise to an uncertain challenge and committing to the unknown.

Spirituality is a personal deal and folks may or may not find such a path in or through climbing.

Another irrelevant, or straw man, argument. The proper analogy would be the soldier who has served for 20 years, including in positions of leadership and training, and who has confronted many enemies without suffering wounds. That is not only the master soldier, but the one who should be teaching new recruits - not the old sargeant with all the scars.

Entirely wrong and, in the context of climbing, you are not either of those men.

Again, I'm sure your notions of climbing and spirituality work for you - but your whole spiel here is a non-starter relative to climbing at a high level of confidence, competence, and accomplishment.

This may be a result of you entering climbing at as a risk-averse middle aged man, or maybe climbing just isn't a venue you feel comfortable managing risk in - I can't say which, but leading for twenty years without falling says it all relative to your qualifications to pontificate about what climbing is or should be about.

You are free to disagree, but you have not demonstrated the standing (other than simple years in the trenches) to judge my perspective "wrong".

You're entirely mistaken - since my climbing has always been at a "high level of confidence, competence, and accomplishment"

...and more than sufficient to introduce hundreds of others to the art as an experiential educator, adventure program leader and wilderness guide - but that's because you have a distorted notion of "accomplishment" which is based on how many mistakes you've survived and how high a 5.x number you can tuck into your hat.
...
I began climbing when I was trained for an entirely new vocation - outdoor leadership - and, while risk management is part of the curriculum, no one changes careers who is "risk-averse".

And, given that I have not only a deep understanding of the art of traditional climbing but also a deeper understanding of the art of living than you, I suspect that I'm in a far better position to "pontificate" about the subject and to offer perspectives which will help make climbing into a part of life's journey rather than a mere sport.

Well, you don't know anything about me and my life to make any judgment around me

twenty years of leading without falling means you at best possess a limited understanding of what [trad] climbing is all about.

"there's just no getting around that reality."

But that doesn't seem to stop you from making all kinds of irrational and absurd (and typically straw man) judgements about me. Do you not notice the hypocrisy?

It's true that there's a certain nobility in picking yourself up after repeated failure to try and try again, but there is a necessary obsessiveness required to continue banging your head against the same wall in spite of the pain.

Clearly, you believe yourself to be the master of trad climbing...

That's the same as saying that, if I've been driving for 20 years and have never had an accident, then I lack the experience necessary to speak objectively about driving.

It's the discipline I learned and nurtured from trad climbing long before I got involved in caving and rescue. And it's the discipline that has been central to alpine climbing since time immemorial.

Sport climbing, however, is a completely different beast. As a sport, the goal is to constantly test one's limits and try to exceed them.

Traditional climbing, like life itself, is a matter of learning to understand and live humbly within one's inherent limits - and to know when one is about to exceed them and then wisely back off.


Call it "tripe" if you're unable to understand this spiritual discipline. But believing that we can exceed our natural limitations by "better" technology is exactly why the human race is on the brink of global collapse and possible extinction.

In sport, the goal is to make the hardiest move, and, more often, a move that the other can not do.

Both are good, but I think like rescueman that trad climbing most avoid falling to play the game.

I hear that, but again you both badly misperceive and misunderstand what [trad] climbing is all about. And while it may be true in today's demographic that many or most folks climb trad far below their limit and don't fall much, the same thing can't be said of anyone who is serious about it.

It seems to me that the most accomplished artists in all fields are the ones who can achieve perfection of motion without stumbling.

It seems to me that the most accomplished artists in all fields are the ones who can achieve perfection of motion without stumbling.