I have done only a little bit of double-rope climbing (all at the Gunks), but I thought climbing on two ropes was pretty intuitive. You alternate clipping one, then the other, until the route starts meandering, at which point you plan your clips to keep the ropes running as straight as possible, and not crossing, so you might clip 2-3 times on one rope, and then the other.

You want the ropes to be very different in color, makes things easier. You can call which color you are clipping, so belayer can feed out only that one.

I don't see how overhanging rock changes the rope management. On hanging belay you stack one rope over each leg.

As far as belaying the second, you agree ahead of time which rope your partner would be climbing on, and keep it consistent throughout the climb.

Double ropes are really nice when climbing in a group of 3, each follower ties into his/her own rope.

On traversing, I guess it would depend on the circumstances. I have not done long traverses, so this is just mental gymnastics on my part, but the way I am envisioning it, if there are only you and one partner, then the leader should clip only one rope on traversing, and it would be the same one as the rope that the second would be climbing on.

If there are 3 climbers, the pitch might be broken down into 2 smaller pitches, so the 2nd climber would tie in midrope, and clip the trailing end behind him as he traverses, and then the 3rd person would tie into the same rope at the end and clean gear as he/she goes up. Or you could have the 3rd belay the 2nd from the bottom, in addition to the leader belaying him/her from the top.

After yet another day of wandering routes and hauling up a 50-lb sack of rope drag, I am interested in transitioning to double ropes. My problem is that I do not know much about the system, other than from what I have seen watching people climb on them and the short references to them in the standard climbing books. I would love to climb with someone who uses doubles, but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who uses doubles regularly and not many people are interested in taking someone out to "show them the ropes", so to speak, so I'm somewhat in a bind.

Specifically I'm interested in rope management on long traverses, overhanging rock, hanging belays, and belaying a second appropriately.

Does anyone know of a good reference out there for doubles (half ropes, not twins)?

This is not correct. You should separate the ropes at the start of the climb, but then flake them together...

IME, leading with them just takes a little practice as long as you know what the intended benefits of the ropes are. As far as leading goes, one of the main benefits is reducing the rope drag, especially on wandering routes, traverses, and roofs. In places, like the Gunks, all of the above could be on one routes. With protection not necessarily in a straight line, having double ropes allows you to protect it without creating massive rope drag OR you having to put super long slings on every piece.

What is harder, IMO, is belaying and the rope management involved when belaying a second. It just takes practice. My advice is to go out and practice on easy single pitch routes.

As far as traverses go, I believe I answered that in my previous post. At hanging belays, you would set it up the same way you would a single rope, but just keep in mind that the rope management issues involved in any rope work are doubled.

Hope this helps.

Josh

...if swapping leads and theres a 2 point anchor, just tie in with a rope to each bolt ... if 3 point gear anchor, you can use one rope/sling on 2 pieces and the second rope on the 3rd piece ... quite fast actually ...

Thanks for the response, Josh. I was in the gunks last weekend and I got sick of rope drag that even 4' slings couldn't easily solve.

On a multipicth belay, I'll generally build an anchor and tie in with the rope. As I bring up a second, I'll holster the rope in successively smaller loops until the second reaches the belay, do the pancake flip once the second comes up, and cast off again. If I were on doubles, could I follow this same protocol and still have relatively few rope management issues (assuming I was neat with stacking)? You wouldn't try or need to separate the two ropes into two separate saddles?

Edited to add... fairly dumb question, but when building an anchor, do you use both ropes to tie in? I'm not a cowtail kind of guy, so I generally use the rope for most anchoring. I would have no concerns about using a single rope for anchor building, but I'm just curious what is done most of the time from those who use doubles often.

This is not correct. You should separate the ropes at the start of the climb, but then flake them together.

Why would you suggest that the second only tie into one rope? The second should tie into both of them.

Why would you not have each climber tie into their own rope?

... if I shift to half ropes, I want to get the most benefit out of them instead of doing what seems intuitive (since intuitive will likely bring me back to single rope techniques).

My biggest concern is rope management of skinny ropes on multipitch belays.

The last thing I want is a cluster in transition while leading on a new rope system - but I guess running up a few 5.5s should solve most of that concern.

Could this be personal preference? One person I climbed with did it this way, and the other person on a separate occasion suggested keeping them separate. I made a royal mess of flaking both ropes together every time... no doubt could and should be improved with practice. But when I stacked them separately, while it took more time, it seemed to keep the ropes from tangling better. But then again, I was thinking of a particular situation where I was bringing up two climbers after me, so keeping the ropes separately seemed like a better idea.

Sorry, I was already thinking about a group of 3 when I was replying. Yes, of course with only two people climbing the second would tie into both.

My thinking was that if the traverse is done with alternating clips, and each second is tied into his own rope, the fall potential on the traverse would be twice as long, compared to a single rope being clipped. Which would be O.K. if the traverse is easy enough for all climbers in the party, and nobody is falling, but I was thinking more in terms of one or both of the seconds climbing at their limit on traverse, and wanting to minimize the fall.

And the reason why I was earlier thinking of clipping only one rope on traverse and keeping it so you clip the left rope if you traverse left, and right rope if you traverse right was because in my mind you would lose all the advantage of the double ropes if you have them alternating on traverse. (This is me talking about a, let's say, ~20-25 ft traverse, not a whole-pitch-long traverse, but a situation where you climb more or less straight up, then traverse, and then climb straight up again, in the course of one pitch. If the entire pitch is a traverse, then alternating clips make sense)

It's good that you are thinking about this, because there often isn't a cookie cutter response and you might need to change your way of doing things depending on the situation. I'll give you 2 examples.

1. On the lam, 5.9, Tuolumne. Except for the first pitch, it's basically just one long traverse, so I alternate clips the entire way, because I'm moving in one direction, and gives me some of the benefits of double ropes and helps with the management of them as well.
2. Rosy Crucifixion, 5.10, Eldo. It's described as 3 pitches but a lot (most?) of people combine the first and second pitches. First pitch traverses to an optional hanging belay, then the second pitch goes straight up. By combining them, your climbing line is basically taking a 90 degree turn. It would not be good to link them with one rope. On this climb, I used one rope to protect the traverse and first part of the straight up line, then started with the second rope at some point but started with longer slings to try and keep the second rope in a fairly straight line to the anchor. In doing this I was able to use the second rope to offer additional protection to my second and prevent a bad swing in the case of a fall. You see the crux is right at the start of the traverse.


Josh

BTW, further up there was a recommmendation to keep the ropes separate as you bring the second up. Try this for one pitch and you'll never do it again. It's much simpler to just treat the ropes as a pair and not try to keep them separate.

Well I’ve used both approaches over the years so my preference to keep them separate is based on more than one try. ...

3. double ropes that can be used as twins ... all the current mammuts ... it makes rope management easier on pitches where you dont really need doubles and allows you to split them from twins to doubles mid pitch .... more flexibility

How could they be rated to be used as twin or half, and yet you couldn't mix the two techniques on a pitch??????????????????????