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jam3s_


Mar 18, 2012, 3:34 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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In reply to:
OP, did the leader top belay you after he reached the top or something?.. it could make more sence.

No it was indoors. When we got to the top we were simply lowered to the ground.

In reply to:
Or was the guy simply giving you info on how people do things in a situation you did not realy need to know about their and then?.

He didnt give me any situations.

Thank you for all your replies, it sounds like this technique is quite normal in the UK (where I am from). However as I am new to leading and currently only lead climb indoors I might stick to the belay loop.


Partner rgold


Mar 18, 2012, 5:32 PM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Sticking to the belay loop isn't going to hurt. Plus, the reasons you were given for the rope loop are all bogus and are, if I recall, debunked in the article on the UKC site I linked above.

I think the rope loop belay is superior in two situations. (1) Belaying the second from above from the harness, and (2) catching a factor-2 leader fall. Both of these are multi-pitch situations (one of which most climbers never experience) so you don't have to think about the issue until you're more experienced.

On a more estoteric note, the potential for rolling a "cross loaded" figure-8, I forgot to mention that, since the loads are coming on a loop, the knot itself is only getting half the impact force.

Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.

So all in all, there's really nothing to worry about.


bearbreeder


Mar 18, 2012, 8:15 PM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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jam3s_ wrote:
Thank you for all your replies, it sounds like this technique is quite normal in the UK (where I am from). However as I am new to leading and currently only lead climb indoors I might stick to the belay loop.

yr a brit???

that explains it ... they do weird things ... like climb on doubles for even the most straight up climbs around here ... and walk around the bluffs with all those hexes ...

Tongue


USnavy


Mar 19, 2012, 4:21 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.
That assumes you are tied into the belay with the rope on a multipitch route. That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to simply using the rope loop in place of the belay loop in a general scene. If you are tied into the belay with slings or on a single pitch route, you are not tied into anything with the rope, so you are loading only the rope loop.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 19, 2012, 4:23 AM)


curt


Mar 20, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.
That assumes you are tied into the belay with the rope on a multipitch route. That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to simply using the rope loop in place of the belay loop in a general scene. If you are tied into the belay with slings...

Then you're not too bright, eh?

Curt


Colinhoglund


Mar 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Otherwise it seems fine to use the tie in loop, (not that I do). But the BELAY loop works great for BELAYING!

On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 20, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Here's the link

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=2538384;page=unread

r.c


redlude97


Mar 20, 2012, 11:45 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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It depends on what version of the "yosemite finish", or fig 8 follow through you use. http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/...-follow-through.html


roguecrimson


Mar 20, 2012, 4:19 PM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Sticking to the belay loop isn't going to hurt. Plus, the reasons you were given for the rope loop are all bogus and are, if I recall, debunked in the article on the UKC site I linked above.

I think the rope loop belay is superior in two situations. (1) Belaying the second from above from the harness, and (2) catching a factor-2 leader fall. Both of these are multi-pitch situations (one of which most climbers never experience) so you don't have to think about the issue until you're more experienced.

On a more estoteric note, the potential for rolling a "cross loaded" figure-8, I forgot to mention that, since the loads are coming on a loop, the knot itself is only getting half the impact force.

Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.

So all in all, there's really nothing to worry about.

Always listen to rgold !! smart guyCool


shockabuku


Mar 20, 2012, 5:39 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.


redlude97


Mar 20, 2012, 6:01 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness


Colinhoglund


Mar 21, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.


Partner rgold


Mar 21, 2012, 3:35 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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As a non-user of figure-8's, I wasn't aware of the effects of various "finishing" techniques on the rolling of the knot. It seems that the main drawback of the figure-8, the difficulty of untying it after loading, has led to some "finishing" techniques that have the far worse side-effect of making the knot far more unstable under ring-loading.

Tying a double overhand knot with the short strand on the load strand will back up a figure-8 to the bombproof level as far as ring-loading is concerned. But if the problem to be avoided is untying difficulty, then another knot is a better idea than messing with the figure-8 by adding extra turns and tucks.

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognoscenti will adopt that knot.

Edit: Corrected the misspelling "cognescenti" after being alerted to it by Jay.


(This post was edited by rgold on Mar 27, 2012, 3:32 PM)


shockabuku


Mar 21, 2012, 7:32 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.

I guess that's why it said "side note", huh?


guangzhou


Mar 21, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

Love mine. Especially after a few big falls.


majid_sabet


Mar 21, 2012, 11:39 PM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 21, 2012, 11:46 PM)


guangzhou


Mar 22, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:






CrazyPirate


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Mar 22, 2012, 12:43 AM)


jt512


Mar 22, 2012, 1:09 AM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

Richard, oddly enough, you've simultaneously taught me a new word and shown me how not to spell it.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 22, 2012, 1:16 AM)


alooker


Mar 22, 2012, 8:13 AM
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I was doing a required 'induction' at a wall close to where I've just moved - the guy asks me to set up a belay, which I do as I always have done, from the belay loop. He then runs over and says NO NO NO! Always belay from the rope loops, it gives a more dynamic belay. Made me look like a fool in front of a class he was teaching. Jobsworth.

Didn't want to argue with him so I did it that way, a tiny rope loops isn't going to have much stretch though, right?! And a knot tightening is not going to be the decider on a fall now is it... Belay loop it is for me.


Colinhoglund


Mar 22, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.

I guess that's why it said "side note", huh?

Rotates 90* and loop(s) should also have been the key phrases. No worries.

The other one that bugs me is people who clip directly to the thumb loops of cams instead of the chain because it "takes one more link out of the chain that could fail" (not talking about aid here) even though most brands (especially BD) specifically warn that this lowers the strength of the cam. Humm . . . lets see, lower a 14kn cam to 10 kn? Or trust a 22kn sling? Tough one.

Anyone else have examples of uses of gear opposite to the manufacture's instructions. (ie, not trusting a belay loop for belaying.)


ptlong2


Mar 22, 2012, 1:10 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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For what it's worth, here is a worst-case scenario argument for clipping into both the rope loop and the belay loop. It is an excerpt from a short piece written back in the 1990s by Tom Jones (a harness deisgner for Black Diamond at that time).

Tom Jones wrote:
This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

The entire post can be found here: http://groups.google.com/...ce&output=gplain


Colinhoglund


Mar 22, 2012, 2:21 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
[IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3518/pict0059bg.jpg[/IMG]





[IMG]http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3194/screenhunter01mar212336.jpg[/IMG]

Just noticed this, WTF????

Over built top belay with a grigri with an OMG!!!!111!!1!1! un locked locking biner!!!!! And not even sure what Majid is trying to show in the second picture.


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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hes trying to show his "superiority" over something that has nothing to do with belaying from the rope or belay loop Tongue


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 2:38 PM
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Re: [ptlong2] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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ptlong2 wrote:
For what it's worth, here is a worst-case scenario argument for clipping into both the rope loop and the belay loop. It is an excerpt from a short piece written back in the 1990s by Tom Jones (a harness deisgner for Black Diamond at that time).

Tom Jones wrote:
This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

The entire post can be found here: http://groups.google.com/...ce&output=gplain

this also means that yr tie in should be very tight i should think ...

i can remember anyone tying in both the belay and rope loops ... all the "pro" climbers and guides ive seen just go though the belay loop generally ...


majid_sabet


Mar 22, 2012, 4:00 PM
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just belay off anchor and you are done.

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