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acorneau
Jul 18, 2012, 3:18 PM
Post #26 of 35
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wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline?
Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down.
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stefanfischer
Jul 18, 2012, 3:34 PM
Post #27 of 35
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My knot of choice is also the re-threaded bowline, as someone posted here with a picture.
I wanted to do the Yosemite bowline, but someone sent me this video link to warn me, and the warning was heard.
I don't think this knot is safe after all. It can collapse without being unthreaded at all, or it can be all wrong to begin with if I just tighten it the wrong way.
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cracklover
Jul 18, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #28 of 35
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acorneau wrote: wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down.
Yes, I know people who do, too. It's not that uncommon. Personally I use a double bowline with a double-overhand tie-off.
Except on long multi-pitch, when I use a fig-8 follow-through.
GO
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rgold
Jul 18, 2012, 5:30 PM
Post #29 of 35
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The rethreaded bowline on a bight is almost certainly the best tie-in knot for all purposes. But, as I said on another site, the rethreaded figure-8 is the Microsoft Office of tie-in knots and is not likely to be going anywhere any time soon.
The rethreaded bowline puts two loops of rope through the harness tie-in points, which means four loops total if, like me, you are using half ropes. This is getting rather crowded if you use the relatively fat 8.5mm half ropes I have.
So I still prefer and use bowlines for tying in. I've been tying various versions for 55 years and am fully aware of what to do and what not to do. No matter what anyone says to the contrary, I have seen rethreaded figure-8's weld and have had it happen to me, requiring about twenty minutes and the aid of a partner to get the stupid thing undone.
My current preference for half-ropes is to tie a double bowline with Yosemite finish and grapevine backup knot. The reason I don't eschew the Yosemite finish and put the backup knot on the rope loop is, first of all, because this crowds the harness tie-in points, but mainly because I clip my belay device to the rope loop, not the harness belay loop, and prefer to have the rope loops free of obstructions.
After careful inspection of the possibilities brought up in the video and in view of the tests Jim graciously performed for us, I have no personal qualms whatsoever about continuing to tie in in this way. I don't see myself ever producing the alternative configuration (which in any case is safe), and also know how to test, during the tightening process, which configuration I have tied. I never have and never will have that alternative configuration to deal with.
I've done my best to make this personal; I'm not recommending any of these things to anyone else, and I think Stephan has done the climbing world a service by alerting us to this issue.
As for bowlines coming undone, two points.
(1) A bowline without some kind of back-up finish is dangerous and should not be considered a knot for climbing. At the very least, you need a grapvine stopper knot on the rope loop. Jay has a non-Yosemite finish. I like the Yosemite finish plus the grapevine.
If you tie in with a bowline that hasn't been finished in some way, you are as stupid as Maryland climber suggests. Sadly, I have seen at least one video, aimed at climbers, in which this is done. The idiot demonstrating this starts up on a lead immediately after tying an unfinished single bowline.
(2) After 55 years of use, I am sceptical about reports about bowlines coming undone. I suspect that in the verified cases, violation of rule (1) is the cause. I say "verified" cases because in at least one instance, the gym fatality in UK, the investigators assumed a bowline must have been used without any direct evidence, and ignored the far more likely possibility that, because of distraction, no knot had been tied at all.
Again, understand that I am not trying to convince anyone two switch from their preferred knot.
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wivanoff
Jul 19, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #30 of 35
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cracklover wrote: acorneau wrote: wivanoff wrote: Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? Yes, I know a few people that do. I personally go for the bowline-on-a-bight (follow-through version, of course) with the tail tucked back down. Yes, I know people who do, too. It's not that uncommon. Personally I use a double bowline with a double-overhand tie-off. Except on long multi-pitch, when I use a fig-8 follow-through. GO
OK, I see your point. I've always considered the "Yosemite Bowline" to be a Double Bowline (ABOK #1013) with a Yosemite finish and a Half Double Fisherman's knot on the standing end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bowline That's what I typically use and what was shown in the 1972(?) Chouinard catalog as the "Kor Knot". (edit: it was 1975 GPIW catalog page 31) I've been using it since I saw it there years ago. If a gym requires a Figure 8 Follow Though, I will do that. That's a good knot, it's just not MY preference.
But, you guys are talking about a single loop bowline (ABOK #1010) with the so-called Yosemite finish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline. That was what was loosely tied and manipulated in the youtube video. I agree. That is NOT something I would use.
And, although the video clearly showed the single loop bowline, when I read "Yosemite Bowline" I had in my head the Double Bowline knot I described above in my first paragraph. Sorry about that.
(This post was edited by wivanoff on Jul 19, 2012, 12:14 PM)
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pfwein
Aug 3, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #31 of 35
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USnavy wrote: . . . Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline.
I like the "USnavy" finish to the retraced bowline--otherwise, you need a huge amount of rope for the the final half fisherman's, or you're left with a dangler.
Anyone else use the "USnavy" finish or have any concerns with it? Seems to snug up nicely, but now I have some generalized fear of strange things happening with bowlines when extra passes are made!
(This post was edited by pfwein on Aug 3, 2012, 4:22 PM)
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USnavy
Aug 14, 2012, 4:12 AM
Post #32 of 35
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pfwein wrote: USnavy wrote: . . . Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline. I like the "USnavy" finish to the retraced bowline--otherwise, you need a huge amount of rope for the the final half fisherman's, or you're left with a dangler. Anyone else use the "USnavy" finish or have any concerns with it? Seems to snug up nicely, but now I have some generalized fear of strange things happening with bowlines when extra passes are made!
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dcfdrescue2
Sep 3, 2012, 11:56 AM
Post #33 of 35
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So... I'm not a climber, but a rescue guy who tries to keep up with a much rope stuff as I can. I use the bowline with a Yosemite pretty often. There are a bunch of variations of it: Bowline on a bight with a Yosemite, Bowline w/a bight and Yo, Inline Bowline w/ Yo (gives you a loop facing each way), etc...
The basic form of a Bowline with or without a Yosemite offer an almost endless supply of rigging options that, once you are familiar with, are not hard to spot if they are tied correctly. While the Bowline with a Yosemite might not be everybody's ideal version of a harness tie-in, I don't think it deserves to be entirely discounted just because one variation of one use is not what you think might be best.
Not flaming, just discussing. I made a blog post about it on my website with a link to a few videos that might show you why some variations of it work for rescuers:
http://rescue2training.com/2012/09/03/bowlinedeath/
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acorneau
Sep 3, 2012, 12:59 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Damn, somebody must have a Rock Exotica VIP card!
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