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curt
May 30, 2003, 9:24 PM
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Mike Reardon didn't say that there were no other ratings scales. What he said is: "Anything else provides nothing further than what is above."
The IPS is a good example of this. If you use the "B" scale of Gill's, perhaps with plus and minus (as many of us did for years) you have something similar to the IPS.
Curt
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flyinghatchet
May 30, 2003, 9:35 PM
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curt/mreardon
I didn't notice that sentence. Sorry about that, I didn't mean to come off as a know-everything jerk or something.
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mreardon
May 30, 2003, 9:46 PM
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Hey there Hatchet, I didn't mean to purposely exclude IPS, but it's really only pushed by one or two individuals in a very limited area and merely a reiteration of either the B system which has been standard for a couple decades, or the easy/moderate/hard/whatthe? which has been around since the dawn of trying to rate any climb.
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flyinghatchet
May 31, 2003, 3:07 AM
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In reply to: Hey there Hatchet, I didn't mean to purposely exclude IPS
That's cool, I should have read your first post closer. Sorry if I came off as a jerk.
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alpinerock
Jun 1, 2003, 12:18 AM
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I think that they should redo the V scale so that each grade is a certain move EX. V1=sloper V2=heel hook and so on..
btw
Lox i have yet to hear an intelligent well thought out response from you and until then STOP DISSING ON OTHER peoples IDEAS!!!
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bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 12:55 AM
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I agree with Curt and see no reason why the B-system is no longer used ! If makes perfect sense and could have been expanded with time.
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lox
Jun 1, 2003, 1:58 AM
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The problem with the B-scale is that it depends on the number of people who have ascended the bolder problem.
Obviously, with an increase in people attempting and doing hard bolder problems, the ratings need to respect the difficulty of the problem, not just whether or not the problem is obscure or the area's hardest.
So, the b-scale has inadequacies which were addressed in the v-scale.
But the v-scale panders to the ego of it's creator. It is where egos are stoked and insulted. It is rarely inspected and pursued in its purest form.
The IPS, an inbetween of the two scales both deals with and accounts for the inadequacies in the two systems and the problem of scales becoming more homogenous between areas, as the scale is vagues enough to simply be a reference point, not a history of the climbs ascents or a point of contention for peeps of varying heights.
Having boldered under the b, v, and yds scales, I can honestly say that a day discussing IPS grades is WAY MORE ENJOYABLE for everyone involved.
And isn't that what it's all about ?!"?!?
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fieldmouse
Jun 1, 2003, 3:49 AM
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only the b3 rating is dependent on the amount of people that have done it, and is never used anyway.
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bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 4:00 AM
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Fieldmouse is right, it only apply to the B3 grade and just like YDS it could have gone beyond B3, just like the YDS went beyond 5.9. Pretty simple! Gill had the right idea and maybe we should have stayed with it.
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lox
Jun 1, 2003, 4:37 AM
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You guys seriously think there are only 3 striations to the spectrum ?!?!?
I'd contend there are at least 4...
At least, there are 4 places people typically plateau.
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climber49er
Jun 1, 2003, 5:02 AM
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In reply to: At least, there are 4 places people typically plateau.
Lox, would you expound on that a bit please?
I am not sure I understand this...
Thanks
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lox
Jun 1, 2003, 5:32 AM
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Sure.
There is the initial hump in the learning curve... EZEZ. vb-v1 ish. This, with some instruction is easily surmountable.
Then, there is the first plateau... v4 and harder.
It's pretty easy to get to v3 and then just chill, build up experience and then work through v4s and maybe a v5 or so.
Then, v7. Stumper.
v10 is the same way.
I would also imagine there are a bunch more peeps sending v11 and v12 than v14 and v15.
Why not have a grading system which adequately reflects these different levels, without really forcing peeps to be so SPECIFIC.
I mean... isn't that why the b-scale is so adored ?!?!?
But you CAN improve on the v1.0
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curt
Jun 1, 2003, 6:48 AM
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In reply to: Sure. There is the initial hump in the learning curve... EZEZ. vb-v1 ish. This, with some instruction is easily surmountable. Then, there is the first plateau... v4 and harder. It's pretty easy to get to v3 and then just chill, build up experience and then work through v4s and maybe a v5 or so. Then, v7. Stumper. v10 is the same way. I would also imagine there are a bunch more peeps sending v11 and v12 than v14 and v15. Why not have a grading system which adequately reflects these different levels, without really forcing peeps to be so SPECIFIC. I mean... isn't that why the b-scale is so adored ?!?!? But you CAN improve on the v1.0
Back in the day, we used to apply these bouldering grades regularly.
B1-
B1
B1+
B2-
B2
B2+
This gives you 6 grades to work with--a reasonable number, no? It fits in with Lox's requirement of "at least 4" striations. Also, I contend that the criticism of the "B" scale sliding with time may no longer be valid. (i.e. the hardest bouldering and highest climbing difficulties may have reached near parity.)
Curt
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lox
Jun 1, 2003, 8:40 AM
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Well this is the first that I personally have heard of this "expanded b-scale"... which is just the IPS reworded.
This is a newschool sport, remember ?!?!?!
kinneloa4lyfe.
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fieldmouse
Jun 1, 2003, 3:27 PM
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If this is the first you've heard of this "expanded" B-scale, then you obviously are either an idiot or havent been around very long. btw-the ips is the b-scale reworded, not vice-versa. From being such an authority on flagstaff boulder problems, you should know that just about every problem put up before the limestone age uses this scale. (b?+/-)
p.s. bouldering is most certainly not a newschool sport.
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bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 3:28 PM
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V0 to V7 = B1- to B1+
V8 to V13= B2- to B2+
V14 to whatever = B3- to B3+
After that let's move on to B4
Still pretty simple and still works. Just something to think about.
You guys are trying to invent new ways for something that was old and established and something that works well.
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bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 3:38 PM
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Sorry, but I forgot about the slash grade. B1+/B2- which expand the B system even more. What the hell is IPS? I must really be behind the times.
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bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 3:49 PM
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Lox, you are really showing your age now (young) by making such a arrogant statement that bouldering is a "new school sport". I hate to break it to you but your "extreme generation" did not invent the game of bouldering or its grading system! You might want to go to Jenny Lake Boulders in the Teton or the Needles of South Dakota and look at some of the problems that were put up in the late 50s and early 60s by some guy named John Gill. It just might change your distorted look at the history of bouldering.
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fieldmouse
Jun 1, 2003, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, but I forgot about the slash grade. B1+/B2- which expand the B system even more. What the hell is IPS? I must really be behind the times.
bob d- Ips stands for ice pond scale. It pretty much parallels the b-scale but is more confusing and used only by people from connecticut and texas.
andy h (formerly of boulder)
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fieldmouse
Jun 1, 2003, 4:37 PM
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the bottom line is this-using a numerical system to index the difficulty of a boulder problem mimics capitalism and is therefore evil. Think about it-
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kalcario
Jun 1, 2003, 4:40 PM
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Why not just adopt the font scale, 7a-b-c+ etc. Seems less contrived and pointless than spraying, er saying "it's B1+/B2-". Oh wait...bouldering IS contrived and pointless, never mind...
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hosgh
Jun 1, 2003, 4:41 PM
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When people compare bouldering to sport routes, do they compare the ratings of boulders to the hardest moves of the sport routes, or just on average what the moves feel like :?: Or like "wow, this sequence feels like it could be part of a 5.12..." or more like "wow, this could be the crux move of a 5.12..."?
I know that it is difficult to compare them, but just a little help on this problem would be appreciated :D
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kalcario
Jun 1, 2003, 4:58 PM
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*or more like "wow, this could be the crux move of a 5.12..."? *
The only thing that boulders and sport routes have in common is single move difficulty, therefore it's pretty common to describe a 13a, for instance, as "60 feet of 12b to a V4 crux" or in the case of Biographie extension, " V9 to 12d pockets".
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curt
Jun 1, 2003, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: Oh wait...bouldering IS contrived and pointless, never mind...
At least it is actually climbing your way up something, rather that falling your way up something.
And....
In reply to: Why not just adopt the font scale, 7a-b-c+ etc. Seems less contrived and pointless than spraying, er saying "it's B1+/B2-".
This was actually done in yosemite for some time. I have one of the older bouldering guides to the area using the Font scale. It has now been abandoned for the "V" scale, however.
Curt
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lox
Jun 1, 2003, 6:19 PM
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OMg.
Look how many bites I get out of one statement I laugh my ass off making right before I go to bed... lol.
The B scale sucks.
2 few numbers and too many + or - grades.
It's stupid and confusing, the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport. As a scale of measure it is rudimentary at best and good luck getting anyone under 35 to embrace it wholeheartedly.
The IPS scale should and will never be widespread. It will be used by those who choose to walk a faint path through thick underbrush. It is a beacon for those who reject the silly notion that "history," meaning human history and not geologic transformation, has some bearing on YOUR rockclimbing.
Hey.
No one wants to hear about YOUR rockclimbing !!!!!!11111
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHASHAHAHAaa...
The more critics the IPS attracts, especially vocal, older critics with a vested interest in preserving an inherently flawed gradeing scale, the more underground and clan-like you will drive those of us who have chosen to walk the path of ultimate elegance and simplicity.
Order of the IPS is the modern day Knights Templar.
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