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jman
May 27, 2003, 9:10 PM
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mhr2000...one thing that most climbers agree on is "first come, first serve" when it comes to people waiting to climb a popular route. If someone is hangdogging the route, oh well. Think of it this way, what right do I have over a climb than another person. I've read through all of the posts in this topic and two words of advice, I think you need to be a little less sensitive and humility goes a long way. IMHO most of the other posters have answered your questions in one way or another and I would not dismiss posts by jt512 because he is a very knowledgable climber and a good source for reliable beta.
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mhr2000
May 27, 2003, 9:32 PM
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Thanks JMan, I do understand your points. My whole point from the start was that I plan to show some respect and have some humility by getting off of a route I can't climb and letting others have their shot. I already do it at the gym. I try new climbs and if I can't complete it without hanging my way up 3/4's of it I don't bother and come back down. I'll go back to some other routes and come back to the new one later when I feel ready to try it again. I just see no point in hanging all over the same route for an hour until you finally get dragged up it. Hanging completely takes any sense of accomplishement away from the experience for me. But to each his own I guess.
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karma274
May 28, 2003, 1:21 AM
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Mhr, consider the possibility that these people could have been climbing with friends who climb at a considerably higher level than they do. After the better climbers hang the rope, they might as well try the route while they are there. Its fun to try new stuff, even if it is really friggin hard. And as others have already mentioned, you can improve. While they probably were in over their head, its not anything to lose sleep over.
And word to what others have said about first come first serve on a route. I don't condone hogging a route. (If others ask to climb it, let them.) But everyone should be given enough time to give a solid attempt for what they are trying to accomplish.
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andy_lemon
May 28, 2003, 2:57 AM
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In reply to: A word to the wise. At this point I would drop this "debate" if I were you. You are essentially arguing the differences between traditional and sport climbing ethics.
If he is arguing the difference between traditional and sport climbing ethics could you tell me 2 things... 1) What's the difference if you hangdog a trad route vs. hangdoging a sport route and 2) what is his arguement? Where does he stand? What are his 5 W's?
I didn't get much from him except that he doesn't like hangdogging... never heard anything about sport vs. trad.
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photon
May 28, 2003, 3:12 AM
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what restraint
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pico23
May 28, 2003, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: I would really like to see the looks on the faces of those who bash me the next time they are kept away from their favorite routes by the exact situations I have described. I think the word hypocrite would come in to play because I gaurentee they wouldn't be so casual about it.
Honestly, I have a few favorite routes but if they're taken I find what might turn out to be another favorite. How often can you climb the same route? If there is a line I usually move on unless it is the last climb of the day, then I'm content to sit around and relax while the other group(s) complete their runs. In either case I don't get all bent out of shape because my favorite route is taken.\
Edited: Ironically MHR I agree with your climbing ethics and style (based on your last post) but I don't think everyone has to. Personally I hate hangdogging and pulling on gear (and worse fixed pins that some people consider part of the route :oops: even on TR) but that only goes as far as me and maybe my partners. I in no way wish to convert the climbing community at large to my standards (alright if I thought I could I might try but I know it's not possible). Basically, you'd be best advised to follow the old mantra "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil." Just look the other way when you see something you don't like. The only time it's worth lossing sleep over is when it is a safety issue that could impact (pun not intended) you or your partners directly. Otherwise stay out of other peoples business (for your own good as well as theirs).
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jbur
May 28, 2003, 3:34 AM
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Hey Andy,
What Curt was getting at was that traditional ethics would have you lower off for another go if you fall or weight the rope, no hanging out and working moves. Sport climbing ethics allow for hang dogging and working moves. So if you hang dog and work a traditional route you are using sport climbing ethics. :D
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alpnclmbr1
May 28, 2003, 4:01 AM
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mhr2000
what you described is pretty typical of a popular sport climbing crag.
I think people gave you a lot of flack because they don't like the fact that you pointed out some of the less desirable(for some people) aspects of sport climbing, the one's that are more like gym climbing then rock climbing.
one point I would make is the routes you saw people hanging on are some of the easiest routes at the red, so if they were going to climb at the red they did not have a lot of choice. It is a fact of life that easier routes tend to be more crowded and attract less skilled climbers.
Another point(and the only one I would take issue with in your original post and many other's posts) is that it seems like many people think dog's belong tied up in someones backyard. They don't seem to have much compassion for a dog's life. If your going to own a dog your obligated to take it out into nature. If your a climber that means your going to take them with you when you climb. It really amazes me that such thin skinned people would be attracted to climbing in the first place.
Anyway have fun learning how to climb and stick with your ideals as you develop them, and when you run into a scene you don't like just go elsewhere.
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curt
May 28, 2003, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: A word to the wise. At this point I would drop this "debate" if I were you. You are essentially arguing the differences between traditional and sport climbing ethics. If he is arguing the difference between traditional and sport climbing ethics could you tell me 2 things... 1) What's the difference if you hangdog a trad route vs. hangdoging a sport route and 2) what is his arguement? Where does he stand? What are his 5 W's? I didn't get much from him except that he doesn't like hangdogging... never heard anything about sport vs. trad.
Andy,
jbur, a couple of posts up the page summed up my meaning fairly well. More specifically:
1) Hangdogging is the antithesis of traditional climbing ethics. By traditionalists, this is called cheating. I am well aware that sport climbers see this differently.
2) I don't want to put words in mhr2000's mouth, but what I got from his original post was that he found this "dogging" behavior objectionable--not to the extent that he would demand that they climb some other way--but objectionable enough that he will not employ those tactics himself.
Curt
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mhr2000
May 28, 2003, 4:32 AM
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yes jbur did some it up perfectly and yes Curt you nailed it also.
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pico23
May 28, 2003, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: Another point(and the only one I would take issue with in your original post and many other's posts) is that it seems like many people think dog's belong tied up in someones backyard. They don't seem to have much compassion for a dog's life. If your going to own a dog your obligated to take it out into nature. If your a climber that means your going to take them with you when you climb. It really amazes me that such thin skinned people would be attracted to climbing in the first place. Anyway have fun learning how to climb and stick with your ideals as you develop them, and when you run into a scene you don't like just go elsewhere.
Agreed. Dogs need to be controlled but the popular creedo that dogs belong tied to a tree in your backyard is totally wrong. I personally don't believe dogs belong at a popular multipitch area (such as the Gunks past the first 60 trapps climbs or seneca) because it is unfair and unsafe for them for many reasons. At a single pitch area like th RRG I see no reason for a well controlled dog to be a safety hazard to anyone including itself. I'm indifferent to taking your dog to a obscure multipitch without crowds. In that case you need to base it on the dog, the weather and other hazards. However, I feel it is just as irresponsible to leave a dog unattended while you spend 6 hours on a multipitch as it is to leave a child. People need to be responsible with there dogs at the crag. And the dog haters need to realize dogs aren't necessarily the scourge of the earth and should not be sentenced to life behind the backyard gate because of some irrational fear of crotch sniffing.
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jdean
May 28, 2003, 12:55 PM
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mhr is just another new climber who has been romanticized by all the pics in the mags then given a harsh dose of reality when he hit the crags. No problem there, he just needs to be a bit more humble in expressing his opinion of others' actions. He made the mistake of coming to the Red on a weekend AND a holiday and he saw a crag full of beginners and weekend warriors. And before he says "You weren't there. You don't know what I saw", I know EXACTLY what he saw because I have climbed there three days a week for the last two years.
Now to address the dog situation: The only problem with bringing your dogs to the crag is when you just let it run all over hell and back and stomps on your gear or pisses on your rope or starts fights with other dogs or it sits there and barks its fool head off. I love my dog and bring him climbing with me whenever I can, but I ALWAYS tether him. Keep in mind that not everyone shares your opinion on how "cute" your dog is when it's fighting with other dogs or stomping on your gear or begging for your sandwich. Not everyone thinks your dog is "really friendly" or "great with people" or "just a big baby". These are popular phrases you hear from dog owners justifying them letting their dog....yep, you guessed it...run all over hell and back. I dated a girl once who had two dalmations who did just that and one of them would even bite people at times! Needless to say, we don't climb together anymore. I am definitely adopting Andy Lemon's approach and will not hesitate to hose down a dog with a healthy dose of pepper spray if it starts pissing me off. Anyway, just my $.02
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mhr2000
May 28, 2003, 1:26 PM
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In reply to: mhr is just another new climber who has been romanticized by all the pics in the mags then given a harsh dose of reality when he hit the crags.
Well, that's half wrong. I've never purchased or even looked at a climbing mag and did not pursue climbing based on any kind of glorification of it. Been wanting to rock climb (not rock hang...LOL) since I was about 10. But living in Evanshell it just wasn't something easily pursued.
However, I did get a harsh does of reality that the climbing community can be a bunch of aholes at the crag and sometimes on a forum when you simply try and express an opinion. I'm just glad there were some cool people in between these aholes that could put together a tactful post.
My first experience at the Red hanging around the climbing areas was exceptional and I said this in the first post. It was just really surprising to see such a drastic difference this time around.
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tsparks
May 28, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Like others have said, you went to 2 of the most popular areas in the Red for beginners. If you want to see more experienced climbers you should go visit some of the other areas. I'm not saying that everyone that goes to those areas are beginners, but they do tend to attract a lot of them.
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kyhangdog
May 28, 2003, 2:11 PM
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Leave the stupid animals at home, or take them to the park, or leave them with a friend. They have no place at the crag. My kids are five and two and are afraid of huge animals. If you need to take them, keep them tethered away from the crag. What's the freakin' argument; it's stupid. Climbing is for people, not dogs. I think I'll start carrying pepper spray like Andy said, and if I feel threatened I will spray the bastard/bitch.
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cracklover
May 28, 2003, 3:30 PM
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The way I see it, MHR is looking at climbers from the perspective of a passionate outdoorsman or hiker. Am I right? Anyway, he has every right to comment on the spectacle he saw. And while he may not understand it, he may well say - ugh! that's not for me! MHR, I've been with groups like that. I agree - it's not a pretty picture. And for the most part, it's not representative of either sport or trad climbers who have been in the game for a few years or more. Here's a few things that might have been going on.
1 - Like many people have said, sounds like there weren't a lot of climbs these people could do at this crag, so these newbies were forced to either turn around and go home, or hang their way up climbs which they couldn't do. Tough choice - what would you have done?
2 - Sport climbers don't "do" ethics. (Good thing I wore my flame-retardant underoos today)
3 - Socializing is a big part of climbing. Perhaps the pair you saw taking a long time to harness up before hitting the 12 knew it wasn't a popular route on this crag, and were enjoying the time to chat before getting their balls handed to them on a route they knew would be d*amn hard. For other people, the socializing is more important than the climbing. So if the dogs are running around and the ground is covered with the climbers' detritus - all the better from their perspective - it's just a big party! I've had one or two days like that. One or two out of hundreds, but that's just me.
4 - Sounds like it hurt a little for you to get your illusions shattered, and to find that all new climbers don't have the same set of ideals that you do. That's one of those tough life lessons. Not much to say to that, except that everyone's just out there to have fun. Sorry their idea of fun didn't match up with yours.
5 - You didn't take the time to try try to get to know these folks. I can understand that, but perhaps if you had, you might have more of an understanding of what they were doing, and why.
Were you wondering if what you saw is typical? For me, going climbing is mostly about climbing. And I like to do an ascent in the ethically cleanest way possible. (Well, when the sun sets, the ligtning starts flashing, and the water runs out, a little french-free between friends never hurt anybody. :) )
I think this is true for most people. Just pick your partners carfully, and enjoy getting to know this marvelous sport!
GO
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bumblie
May 28, 2003, 4:24 PM
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In reply to: 3 - Socializing is a big part of climbing..... For other people, the socializing is more important than the climbing. So if the dogs are running around and the ground is covered with the climbers' detritus - all the better from their perspective - it's just a big party!
This type of behavior imposes on others. If people primarily want to just hang and socialize, they should do so in a manner that doesn't create unnecessary tension with other climbers - especially in popular or crowded areas.
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jman
May 28, 2003, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: Leave the stupid animals at home, or take them to the park, or leave them with a friend. They have no place at the crag. My kids are five and two and are afraid of huge animals. If you need to take them, keep them tethered away from the crag. What's the freakin' argument; it's stupid. Climbing is for people, not dogs.
I know the subject to this topic isn't specifically about taking dogs to crags and this topic has been discussed over and over again, with one side saying my pet is an angel and the other side saying dogs are annoying and they should be kept at home. Thought I would just chime in and say that I don't have any objections to dogs at crags as long as they are well behaved and are under control, but I am somewhat distressed about other poster's threatening harm to pets that annoy them. Harming someone's pet sounds like a prefect way to create a scene much larger than any annoying animal can create. What ever happened to just asking the owner to keep their pet under control? Maybe I am bias because from personal experience I have never had a bad dog experience at a crag, and for the record I do not have a dog but some friends have dogs that they normally bring to the crag.
More power to parents who want to encourage their child at a young age to rock climb, but I think arguments that some make for not bringing dogs to crags can also be applied to arguments that others would make for not bringing young children to crags. I've seen plenty of situations where young kids wander away from parents, trample over ropes, run around crags and knock peoples things over, walk directly underneath people starting climbs or bouldering, etc.
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bumblie
May 28, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Instead of spraying the dogs, you could request that the owners control their dogs. If they fail to do so..
PEPPERSPRAY THE OWNERS
That's the ticket.
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sycamore
May 28, 2003, 5:07 PM
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"Your right about these people being beginners and tourist climbers I'm sure. I just looked at my guide book and most of the routes being hangdogged at military were 1,2,3 & 20... 5.7's, 5.8's and 5.9's."
Just for the record, there are no bolted 5.7's or 5.8's at Military Wall. There is one bolted 5.8 at Left Flank. So you really sat there watching people tradding (multiple) .7's and .8's, hangdogging and shouting for beta? Really? Ummm. . . right.
"My whole point from the start was that I plan to show some respect and have some humility by getting off of a route I can't climb and letting others have their shot"
Did you ask any of these groups if you could get on the route they were on? No. I just spent the last 8 days climbing at the Red, and even over the weekend, probably the busiest one of the year, any time people even caught me _looking_ at something they were working it was "Hey, wanna get on this?" or "Go ahead and use our draws/rope/belay". One day we were working a 12 at Roadside for probably 3 hours. Anyone who even walked by was asked if they wanted to get on it. Three random people did. I hung all over that route, and eventually got the redpoint. One person in our group couldn't even make the first bolt. One random dude walked up and onsited it. But to say that any of us had any more right to being on that route based upon our individual abilities that someone else, or linking it to notions of "respect" and "humility" is ludicrous. It's _sport climbing_ for christ's sake. It's funny- you say that climbers shouldn't get on routes they have no business being on, when in Flash Training, Eric Horst states the exact opposite, almost verbatim, that to really improve as a climber, you're going to have to "get on routes you have no business being on". If you don't agree, fine. If you never hangdog, fine--it sounds great in print--very virtuous. I'd just love to be there the first time you get a couple feet above that second bolt, and your legs start shaking and you're so scared to take that huge 4 foot whipper, and you're yelling TAKE! TAKE!, and you grab the draw below you and lay back on the belayer cause you're pumped out of your mind--I'd love to see what you do--screw on a bail biner ('cause i'm sure you have one) clean it and call it a day? Right. Keep living the dream, man.
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alpnclmbr1
May 28, 2003, 5:20 PM
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If your going to pepper spray someone it be the owner of the dog. If I ever saw someone pepper spray a dog for playing, he would get a facefull of it themselves.
I agree that some dogs can be a pain but it is the owners fault, not the dogs.
and mhr: don't take responses on this board as typifying climbers (or their attitudes) in general. People come off way different on the internet then in real life in my experience.
edit: hey bumblie you beat me to it
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mhr2000
May 28, 2003, 5:47 PM
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sycamore,
I opened the guide book, looked on the wall they were climbing and it listed routes 1,2,3 & 20 on that wall. I didn't do any year long research to determine exactly what they were climbing it really isn't that damn important.
Once again the issue of hanging is taken out of context for this thread. It's understandable if your pushing yourself and trying hard to climb and falling or get so pumped out you just have to hang for a minute. I never said one word about this style.
Now how about those people who climb two moves without any problem, belayer takes the slack tight and the climber lets off the rock to hang. Two more moves, hang, two more moves, hang and never once pushing themselves or bothering to attempt more then 2 or 3 moves. They never fall because they are never tired because they have never climbed during the route. THIS IS NOT PUSHING YOUR LIMITS BY GETTING ON STUFF YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON! How friggin hard is it too see the difference here? Why is it people keep saying it's all the same. IT ISN'T! So quit telling me why people HANGDOG!! I KNOW WHY ALREADY! I have known and did know while I was watching these people. I know what I saw and it was pathetic. Had they been doing the style of climbing you describe I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with! They weren't flash training or doing any other types of training. They were simply hanging and hanging and hanging.
I'm sure I will hangdog, it's part of it as I've said all along, BUT I WILL NOT HANG MY WAY UP A ROUTE! I'll come down if I can't complete it after a couple falls and try again after some rest. BUT I WON'T REST ON THE ROPE every other move... what's the point?
You really should read a thread through before posting because all this stuff most everyone has already posted. Least you could do is try and be original.
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kyhangdog
May 28, 2003, 6:02 PM
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I should probably clear up my post. I'm talking about if I feel "threatened" by a dog. Some dogs are very protective of their owners and have growled at me and my kids. I'm not for keeping the dogs tied up, but the crag is no place for a dog. Like I said, I will protect myself. Don't get me wrong, some friends of mine bring their dogs and have had run-ins with other people because of it. My friend's dog urinated on another climber's backpack. That doesn't need to happen my friends. Leave the dogs home.
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holmeslovesguinness
May 28, 2003, 6:03 PM
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Perhaps you could patrol the crag with a really really long cattle prod and try to motivate all those lazy hang dogs? A few good zaps up the arse and they'll probably be cranking at least 5 or even 6 moves in a row. Afterwards they'll realize how rewarding it can be to really push themsevles and will thank you for showing them proper climbing ethics :P
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andy_lemon
May 28, 2003, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Hey Andy, What Curt was getting at was that traditional ethics would have you lower off for another go if you fall or weight the rope, no hanging out and working moves. Sport climbing ethics allow for hang dogging and working moves. So if you hang dog and work a traditional route you are using sport climbing ethics. :D
I never knew that trad had such strict top roping ethics... I'm going to have to go back and re-top rope 20 or more climbs. :cry:
lmao
Andy
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