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wc
Sep 10, 2003, 12:07 AM
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Just curious if anyone out there would be willing to pay for a training program specifically designed for bouldering. It is a complex and involved program based on years of research and experimentation by a practicing Physical Therapist/boulderer. A few of his friends (myself included) have tried it and it definitely is effective.
The problem is all the information needs to be compiled and organized into a format that can be used by others, the word of mouth/email thing just doesn't work. The problem is, nobody wants to put the time into the project for nothing.
So do people think there is enough training documentation out there, no matter how misguided it is? Or are people interested in getting their hands on a solid, scientifically based training program that works?
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wyomingclimber
Sep 10, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Why not call around to the climbing book publishers and see if anyone is interested in publishing it as a book?
Based on the huge increase in the popularity of bouldering and goofy power trick, particularly by the younger generation, the fact that there isn't a training book specifically for bouldering(that I know of) seems strange.
Of course, there are some good training books out there by Goddard/Neumann and Horst, but they tend to be really technical and include a lot of aspects that aren't really relevant to the boulderer.
I would think that a relatively simple, fun to read book focusing on cycling power and strength training would be really popular.
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wc
Sep 10, 2003, 4:46 PM
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Yeah, he talked to some publishers and got the typical response of "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested." Which is what we expected, but nobody wants to put the hours of time into putting it all together if nobody is going to be interested... I guess it would just have to be a "lobor of love" thingy.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 10, 2003, 4:54 PM
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You should talk to them a little more and try to come to a compromise.
I've been involved in the publishing industry for years and it seems like you could get a deal done with less than a rough draft. Maybe a detailed proposal with a sample chapter, an outline, a list of the author's qualifications, and an explanation of highlights (ie what sets this book apart from others.)
I mean if Heather Sagar managed to get that nonsense published you sure as heck ought to be able to...
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unabonger
Sep 11, 2003, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, he talked to some publishers and got the typical response of "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested." Which is what we expected, but nobody wants to put the hours of time into putting it all together if nobody is going to be interested... I guess it would just have to be a "lobor of love" thingy.
What did you want the publisher to do? Write you a check based on your good word? Jesus you have to take them something. I can write a rough draft in one weekend. "Lobor of love" indeed.
The perturbed UnaBonger
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wc
Sep 11, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: What did you want the publisher to do? Write you a check based on your good word? Jesus you have to take them something. I can write a rough draft in one weekend. "Lobor of love" indeed.
I don't like your tone boy! And stop taking my name in vain for Christ's sake.
I'm very proud of you for being able to write a rough draft in a weekend, your home room teacher must be very proud. However, when you have to compile 4 years of SOMEONE ELSE'S writings, put them in a cohesive package, track down references, and communicate with people who live 10 hours away it is a little more than a weekend project for most. I realize they need something before they will pay, or agree to pay, anything, and he wasn't looking for any kind of payment... I'm not as stupid as you seem. I assume they would give a dip knob like you the same "sure, send us a rough draft and we will see if we are interested" response for your weekend homework assignment as they would a serious, scientifically based publication.
Which brings us to this forum, where I was trying to get input on whether there was any interest in such a book... not input on how quickly you can spew out a load of crap from you arse!
In the famous words of so many... STFU wanker...
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bandycoot
Sep 11, 2003, 6:37 PM
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Look at the book "training for climbing" That sells. Of course there is a market! There are many books on training that are successful. Good luck!
Josh
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mother_sheep
Sep 11, 2003, 7:23 PM
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So if your scientific training program really works and if you've got some cash saved up, you could always publish it yourself. Lots and lots of work involved though. I'm trying to self publish a book right now. You have to set up an LLc, purchase ISBN numbers, find a layout person, artist (you may not need this but I do for my book), then there are production and marketing issues that you have to weed through. This is your first step towards something though. Market research. But yes, if there was a training program out there that I was convinced could work for me, heck yeah I'd drop some cash.
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gblauer
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Sep 11, 2003, 7:31 PM
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I hate to say it, but like most things you really have to put the work in...in order to get the payoff. Sorry.
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collegekid
Sep 11, 2003, 7:36 PM
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yes, you could easily sell your book (so long as what you say is true).
If you need proof that there is a market for your book, just go into the technique and training forum...every other thread seems to be about "how to get stronger."
I may even be interested in purchasing this book, depending on the price...otherwise i'd probably just look it over when i'm in rei or sport chalet.
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unabonger
Sep 11, 2003, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: Which brings us to this forum, where I was trying to get input on whether there was any interest in such a book... not input on how quickly you can spew out a load of crap from you arse! In the famous words of so many... STFU wanker...
Well, ok. I think there is plenty of room on the market for a good training book. But why yours?
Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
Personally my standard for up to date training info is Horst's newest. Plenty of scientific reference and comprehensive discussion of every aspect of training for climbing. Can you beat it?
Now for more ass spew: Even if you can offer something that's not out there, you have to convince us to buy it. And we're not going to pay much. Horsts book is selling from maybe 12 dollars on Amazon. So you're probably going to do it for nothing even if there's interest. And just who is your friend? Who are you? Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about? Your word? Have you published before? Mag articles? Not only can I write a rough draft in a weekend, I can read it in 20 minutes at the bookstore. That's the reality.
If this gets done, it will get done because someone has the desire to DO IT, not because they wanted to make a living off it. Sorry, but that's the way writing is for most people that do it, an imperative.
The speedreading UnaBonger
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
How many of them are practicing Physical Therapists, that also climb v11, and have been nothing short of obsessed about getting stronger for the last 5 years?
I don't know if it can beat Horst's book, I haven't put the time into reading Horst's book, but I know people who have technical problems with some of his ideas. I know that all 5 people I am aware of who have tried this program have nothing but good things to say about it and notice positive results within 2 weeks of starting.
In reply to: So you're probably going to do it for nothing even if there's interest.
I'm cool with that, as long as people are interested and gain something from my effort. I don't need to get rich off this, I am perfectly happy with my income, it allows me to travel for 3-6 months a year, why would I need more $$$? I just don't want to waste my time.
In reply to: And just who is your friend?
A brilliant Physical Therapist and visionary philosopher with an unfathomable understanding of the underlying essence of the universe.
Just some wanker.
In reply to: Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about?
Why shouldn't you? Do you have trust issues? Perhaps you should seek therapy. A wonderful world of opportunity awaits those who are open to sharing and seeking knowledge.
In reply to: Have you published before?
Yup, Christensen, W., Roselle, G. T., Bowman, J. R., (2002) HIGH TEMPERATURE (> 600 o C) DEVELOPMENT OF FRACTURE PERMEABILITY IN THE ALTA, UTAH STOCK: CONSTRAINTS FROM THERMAL AND ISOTOPIC EVIDENCE PRESERVED IN THE CONTACT AUREOLE, GSA Abstracts and Program, Paper No. 189-12.
Note the first author... yup WC, that's me.
And another on the way...
In reply to: Mag articles?
Nope, haven't tried. Never found much interest in that. Seems like a waste of time really. Have you read some of the chit they print?
In reply to: Not only can I write a rough draft in a weekend, I can read it in 20 minutes at the bookstore. That's the reality.
Your mommy must be very proud. Good for you.
In reply to: If this gets done, it will get done because someone has the desire to DO IT, not because they wanted to make a living off it.
I don't remember ever saying anyone wanted to make a living at it. You really need to chill the fock out and stop making ASSumption big guy. I appreciate your input, you have some legit points. I was just trying to find out if there was any interest before I tried to put it in a form that other people could use. Why waste my time reformatting the whole thing if nobody is interested? I understand it pretty well and can clarify any questions I might have pretty easily thanks to the benevolent omniscients of my friend, I was just seeing if anyone else would be interested. Obviously you aren't so just STFU KNOB.
In reply to: Sorry, but that's the way writing is for most people that do it, an imperative.
No need to be sorry for that, you have plenty of other problems you should be sorry about.
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crackaddict
Sep 12, 2003, 12:11 AM
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I would say that there is a market for it have you ever been to Planet Fear .com
All kinds of coaching and training going on here.
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solid
Sep 12, 2003, 12:21 AM
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I would say you haven't presented anything worthy of a second thought. In fact, you haven't. Claiming a revolution is occuring does not cause the coup.
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jt512
Sep 12, 2003, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: Check the sales statistics on the ones that are out there: From Bobby Bensmans bouldering book to John Gregory's training book to Steve Ilg to Goddard to Horst to Clyde Soles Which ones are selling and why? What can your book offer that isn't already out there?
A specific training program, from the sound of it.
In reply to: Personally my standard for up to date training info is Horst's newest. Plenty of scientific reference and comprehensive discussion of every aspect of training for climbing. Can you beat it?
I don't know if he can "beat" it, but it sounds like he might be able to complement it. Horst's book gives a lot of general priniciples of training and a slew of exercises to choose from, but it is very general; you have to determine which exercises are best for you and design your own triainging program, which is no easy task. Horst has already covered the general training principles, which, presumably, wc's PT friend's program is in accord with. It seems that what would differentiate this book from Horst's is the application of those principles to the development of a specific training program for bouldering. Sounds good to me. Can he come up with something for sport climbing?
-Jay
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micahmcguire
Sep 12, 2003, 2:38 AM
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I'm sorry, but bouldering training? what is there to train except your strength and technique? those things evolve, they grow with familiarity. teaching someone the technical aspects of roped climbing can take a bit, but aside from a couple quickie pointers the only thing that will make a boulderer increase his or her level of skill is simply to do alot of bouldering. that is why I would probably have to seriously pick fun at anyone with a "how to boulder" book. they'd take it in the shorts
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 2:14 PM
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In reply to: How many of them are practicing Physical Therapists, that also climb v11, and have been nothing short of obsessed about getting stronger for the last 5 years?
You're buddy might have a good program, but that's not that impressive of a resume. V11? 5yrs? Physical Therapy? So what? I've been obsessed for almost 20 years. Can he describe the krebs cycle or what an aerobic threshold is?
In reply to: A brilliant Physical Therapist and visionary philosopher with an unfathomable understanding of the underlying essence of the universe.
Great. Sounds like you've got a great start on a cult that worships rehabilitation. What's that have to do with his credentials in climbing training?
In reply to: unabonger wrote: Why should we trust that you know what the f you're talking about? Why shouldn't you? Do you have trust issues? Perhaps you should seek therapy. A wonderful world of opportunity awaits those who are open to sharing and seeking knowledge.
My trust problems are none of your business. The relevant issue is why would we think you're book is anything better than what's out there? Because he's a physical therapist and has been getting strong for 5 whole years?
In reply to: Note the first author... yup WC, that's me.
Well congratulations. You're clearly an important and powerful force in the area of fracture analysis. But you've done NOTHING to establish credibility in the climbing community at large. You're little cult notwithstanding, people will only give it more than a glance if you can establish that you have some authoritative knowledge in the industry that's relavant. In the meantime, I'll be sure to refer my hundreds of friends to your fascinating treatise on isotopic evidence....when they need to fall asleep.
You want an example of someone who actually has knowledge that did a book that hasn't sold? Look up "Sagar" on Amazon.
In reply to: Nope, haven't tried. Never found much interest in that. Seems like a waste of time really. Have you read some of the chit they print?
Well of course they print sh*t. You're so hip to state that. But you're also missing the point. Its a proving ground with an audience that can review it and judge it and decide if the author has a clue.
In reply to: I don't remember ever saying anyone wanted to make a living at it.
Yeah, we see. You've bragged about your income already. You're a huge fish in the pond. But you said in your first post you didn't want to do all that work for nothing. So what do you expect to do it for?
The quotefest UnaBonger
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 2:42 PM
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JT512, you should write it. You seem to have a better grasp on what he can offer than he does!
The curious UnaBonger
Yeah, I already feel like I wrote the introduction to his book for him!
-Jay
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 3:08 PM
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Unabonger,
You have some serious aggression problems. When is the last time you hugged your father? Look into it, it might help you deal with your problems. Who knows, maybe you will even be able to make friends someday... and you won't have to pull the bong solo.
Somehow you got the misguided notion that your "whimsical, sarcastic, outlandish, fanciful, boorish, insulting" comments are somehow funny and interesting to others. My guess is most people find them as stupid, unhelpful, unworthy, and unimaginative as I do.
good luck in everything, you obviously need it.
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reborne
Sep 12, 2003, 3:12 PM
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just publish it yourself like alot of people are doing with guide books now adays its a bigger risk but if you can sell it you get alot more money ... even if you write it send it to publishers and noone wants it you can always fall back on sending it out to a printer yourself .... but talk to chockstone
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 3:19 PM
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In reply to: what is there to train except your strength and technique? those things evolve, they grow with familiarity. that is why I would probably have to seriously pick fun at anyone with a "how to boulder" book. they'd take it in the shorts
That is interesting you feel that way. I suggest you read some books about strength training if you want to learn the truth! Do you think Olympic power lifters simply lift the heaviest things they can whenever they train, and the strength and technique just evolves?
One if the biggest misconception in climbing training is that climbing hard is the best training for climbing hard. :roll:
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wyomingclimber
Sep 12, 2003, 4:22 PM
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You should definitely pick up Horst's Training for Climbing and Neumann's Performance Rock Climbing. You might be surprised at how good they are. Also, both authors are fairly qualified, particularly Neumann, who I believe holds a Masters in exercise physiology from one of the top schools in the world.
While Horst's book is much more practical (vs theoretical) than Neumann's, I think both authors shy away from outlining exact training programs because of the significant problem of different people reacting to training differently. It's hard to put together a single program that would be perfect for both me and Chris Sharma (though certainly the same basic principles would apply.)
And I'm going to disagree with your spirited opponent on the Heather Sagar issue. I wouldn't bother with her book when you're doing your research. It didn't sell well for good reason.
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fredrogers
Sep 12, 2003, 4:36 PM
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wc, yes I think there is a market for your potential book. But you are going to have to work on being "marketable". You'll probably need to get some recognizable climbing personalities to vouch for your program. It sounds like it will be a lot of work to organize your materials and then present them in an easy-to-understand format. Good luck. If you find that it's too difficult to write and publish a book than perhaps you can present the material in articles for Climbing or Rock and Ice. The articles they usually offer on training are extremely broad, unuseful, and written by people with little to no knowledge of training. You could always post them here for free. Why don't you give us some teasers of what your program is like?
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unabonger
Sep 12, 2003, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: Unabonger, You have some serious aggression problems. good luck in everything, you obviously need it.
You might know isotopic frissurious geo evidentiary rules but you've done nothing to show us what you're credentials are to write a training book. I've offered serious criticism that you seem unable to respond to except with unimaginative slams at my psychology. All of which might be valid, but you still haven't shown us why anyone would be interested in your book. Learn to seperate the meat from the troll and respond accordingly.
A specific training program might be good, but we all live very different lives, for example, you probably live in a cage. So we have different scheduling and climbing needs even within the bouldering subspecialty. So c'mon. Why not rough it out here, and we can offer you criticism. Once its been tempered in this fire, or rec.climbing, then take it worldwide.
Or can't you take the heat?
The aggressive UnaBonger
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dingus
Sep 12, 2003, 5:07 PM
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No, I would not pay. There is too much free info readily available. Sorry.
DMT
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: You should definitely pick up Horst's Training for Climbing and Neumann's Performance Rock Climbing. You might be surprised at how good they are. It's hard to put together a single program that would be perfect for both me and Chris Sharma (though certainly the same basic principles would apply.)
First of all, I appreciate your constructive comments.
I have read Goddard and Neumann's Performance Rock Climbing. It is an excellent book and it has had a HUGE affect on my climbing for the last 10 years. Indeed an excellent resource. The author of the program in question knows Goddard and has contacted him about being the second author, but alas Dale has a family, career, etc and like so many others, doesn't have the time to put into this. However, I suspect he will be reviewing it in the later stages of development. I have not read Horst's book mainly because of the criticism it got from some friend. However, I do plan to read it for reference.
I absolutely agree, the same program that works for me will not work for Sharma, I'm just too damn strong :). This is an excellent point which I am hopping to address... if possible.
I was thinking we would provide a specific program directed toward people who have been climbing for several years and have a reasonable fitness base to work with. People who find that simply climbing hard isn't helping them climb harder... if that makes any sense. We would concentrate on outlining a schedule of specific exercises (many of which I had never seen, despite spending years in gyms, PT facilities, etc) which are designed to build, balance, and condition important core muscles that many climbers neglect. We were even going to include a cdrom with video of the exercises to help illustrate the proper form... something I see lacking in SO MANY workouts!
From there we would attempt to address the sticky issue of customizing the exercises and schedules for weaker climbers and stronger climbers and people with special needs. Of course, any training program is a personal thing and hopefully the readers will be clear on that.
So, thanks for your input, it has been very helpful. Maybe I will even send you a free copy to evaluate... but that won't be until early spring.
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: No, I would not pay. There is too much free info readily available. Sorry.
You get what you pay for I guess. For years everyone always told me the best way to climb harder was to simply climb hard all the time... but it just doesn't work that way. Personally, I prefer my "information" to come from reliable sources and be backed by years of clinical studies. But that's just me...
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dingus
Sep 12, 2003, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: You get what you pay for I guess.
Well, you're assuming I was looking for a product. I'm not. Can't create a need where this is none. Beyond my traditional gym membership I've never been willing to pay for training.
I wish you all the best my friend. Good luck and I hope you sell the crap out of your book!
DMT
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: Why not rough it out here, and we can offer you criticism. Once its been tempered in this fire, or rec.climbing, then take it worldwide. Or can't you take the heat?
I won't rough it out here because I ain't got the time, this site ain't got the bandwidth, and I would have to deal with cornholes like you getting in the way of other people trying to read the thread. Tell you what, I'll "rough it out" while I'm on the road for 4 months. Then I will distribute it to worthy reviewers. Then, if all goes well, I will put it on the shelf. At that time you can speed read the hell out of it, make your mommy proud.
Hopefully you will gain something from it, hopefully it will make you better, stronger, and wiser. Hopefully it will give you something better to do with your time and make you feel better about yourself. Until then I wish you and your father the best...
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You get what you pay for I guess. Well, you're assuming I was looking for a product.
Nope, I wasn't assuming anything. I was simply acknowledging the fact that yes, there is a stack of free advice out there, while at the same time trying to illustrate just how reliable that information is
Thanks for the input though. It is good to know what is already out there and how satisfied people are with it.
peas
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micahmcguire
Sep 12, 2003, 7:02 PM
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wc- you wrote "One if the biggest misconception in climbing training is that climbing hard is the best training for climbing hard"
did I say that? MOST of bouldering (well, and climbing in general) is learning to use technique to supplement and inevitably replace exertive strength. this can be taught, but barely. I find that such technique, the fostering of "ease and finesse of motion" if you will, is something that our bodies learn in leu of the mind, and remember despite cognitive thought. it is an evolution that can be feebily prompted, but not successfully taught. climbing with someone who is better than you promts you to improve your technique and try harder climbs, it does little to actually make you a better climber. you have to do that on your own, you vs the rock.
anyhow, its nice to get pointers from friends every now and again, but the real battle is fought inside your own body, technique against exertion
oh fluxus, heather sagar sucks (real quick. who the hell is heather sagar again?) just joshin ya
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wc
Sep 12, 2003, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: did I say that? MOST of bouldering (well, and climbing in general) is learning to use technique to supplement and inevitably replace exertive strength. this can be taught, but barely. I find that such technique, the fostering of "ease and finesse of motion" if you will, is something that our bodies learn in leu of the mind, and remember despite cognitive thought. it is an evolution that can be feebily prompted, but not successfully taught.
No, you didn't say that and sorry if I implied that you did.
You are absolutely right. I agree completely with your statements above. For 4 years I climbed at the same grade as many of my friends who were obviously stronger than I was. They could do one arm pullups, one arm lock offs, massive sets of pullups, etc. I couldn't lock off with one arm to save my life and I could barely do 10 pull ups, yet with technique and inner focus I was able to get up the same problems.
Now I am really excited because I can compliment my good technique with strength gains. I can now hold 10 sec front levers, which was inconceivable to me 6 months ago. Despite my new found strength, I still completely agree with you, technique is very important (I would say most important). But I feel it is something you can't teach... you can only learn.
Thanks for the input.
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solid
Sep 12, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Posts: 338
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For someone who posted a question (which we could only assume merited honest answers) you're seeming a bit reluctant to accept it.
Your program could have some merit but it doesn't seem that you've done enough research on your own to even see what's out there. Also, the way you're presenting your qualifications make you look like a braggart and a poorly versed one at that.
Just something for you to think about.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 12, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Fluxus--I'm afraid I was the one who dissed Sagar's book, though if you liked it, great.
I just thought it was a really sloppy piece of work. Innaccurate, repetitive, unoriginal, hard to follow, etc.
I mean, it's hard not to giggle at a sportclimbing book that puts VO2max as a major contributor to ability. Maybe Lance Armstrong should give up biking and flash Realization.
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alpiner
Sep 13, 2003, 3:41 PM
Post #35 of 49
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Well if you're going to play that game...Performance Rock Climbing espouses the "fat-burning zone" nonsense.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 13, 2003, 5:22 PM
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Can you tell I'm bored? I'm sitting here working on my own book that I've been writing for 6 months. So, I'll take a break and rise to Fluxus's challenge (despite there being no swank prize mentioned.)
In the first 3 pages of Sagar's book:
Your physical strength is determined by two factors: your muscle fiber type and the amount and type of training you do. Add: number of fibers, tendon insertions, genetic recruitment patterns, etc.
Multiple power moves are fueled by the anaerobic system of energy--the creatine-phosphate system. The ATP-CP system is only good for about fifteen seconds. Glycolysis? Ding ding ding.
If you fall with your hands opening uncontrollably on the holds...you have reached the anaerobic threshold--the point at which metabolism has switched from aerobic to anaerobic and your oxygen debt is too high to continue. Where to start... 1: AT relates to systemic blood concentrations of lactic acid, not localized concentrations. But that's just nitpicking, I suppose. 2: If your hands open uncontrollably, you're not at 'AT' you're way past it. 3: Oxygen debt ain't your problem, it's lactic acid interfering with muscle function (which, I suppose, to be fair, is related to a lack of oxygen. But not the way she thinks.)
Aerobic training involves maintaining a heart rate of 50-80% of max for twenty minutes or more. (fit people 80%, unfit people closer to 50%.) The suggestion here is that heart rate is a good indicator for training intensity in power sports? I love that. Can you imagine the difference in intensity levels between a XC skier(using a huge percentage of his/her muscle mass) and a sportclimber (using primarily his/her forearms.) How hard would you have to squeeze a rubber ball to get your heart rate up to 80% of max? Pretty darn hard, I would imagine. I guess you could try running up low angle slab. Oh, and her percentages are too high based on the endurance training literature I have.
The maximum volume the lungs can hold--known as VO2max--can limit exertion. VO2max has virtually nothing to do with lung volume and everything to do with cardiac output. [It] closely related to Anaerobic Threshold. Not really. VO2 is cardiorespitory and AT is muscular. Hence, training one ability will directly affect the other. This is actually true in endurance sports (though not for the reason she states) but it isn't true for climbing. Doing hill intervals on a bike will not improve your forearm's ability to endure repeated 5.10 moves, but it'll put a nice fine point on your VO2.
Endurance training is one of several approaches you can take to improve your V02max and AT (she then goes on to explain how sportclimbing will provide an continual improvement to your VO2.) Okay. First of all, sportclimbing is not probably going to tax the heart enough to significantly affect VO2 (though I suppose it is conceivable.) Second, you don't really get a 'continuous' improvement to VO2. Genetic ceilings are unbreakable and relatively easy to reach. Three, again, VO2 isn't really relevant to power sports like climbing.
As far as Horst's book goes. My big complaint was that he threw out muscular endurance training. I think that's a mistake.
PRC seemed almost perfect to me, though, I thought the Strength chapter was a little unclear in places. Regarding the 'fat burning' discussion mentioned by a prior poster. I think Neumann is correct the way he presented it.
Ooops. The rain has stopped and my road bike calls. Time to go work that VO2max...
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redpoint73
Sep 13, 2003, 5:43 PM
Post #37 of 49
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In reply to: "I don't know if it can beat Horst's book" Anyone who can't beat Horst's book with one hand tied behind their back is in bad shape.
Unfortunately "anyone" is not willing to even try. Fact is there is not much published training info. Only a few books. Many on this site have panned Horst's books. But there is not much to compare them to, only a couple others.
Back to the original post, I would say there isn't nearly enough documentation out there. Any more books that are even a little helpful would be more than welcome.
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granitehalo
Sep 13, 2003, 6:07 PM
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I'm interested, if it is unique and accurate. If your goal is to help some people, even if it doesn't make lots of money, I think there is enough interest for it to be worth doing.
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sidepull
Sep 13, 2003, 6:10 PM
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Something that I think creates a contextual bias in this argument is that most memebers of this site are big on the "the best training for climbing is climbing." I'm not sure if that's due to a larger trad population or just a more vocal trad population (not bagging on tradsters).
However, in bouldering and sport climbing using climbing to train will get you plateau-ed pretty quick. I wish more people were supportive of wc. In fact, I'm sure Pablo Babero would agree with him:
"As opposed to most people, I think strength is the most important thing for anybody practicing a sport, except for the skill sports like equilibrium-based sports or ball sports. It’s true that we don’t have to forget such aspects like psychology or technique, but if you you’re in great physical shape your intellect will know it and will act better. Technique is very important as well, but you can replace it with power. If you already have got the power, there will be time to purify your technique that except in on-sight climbing, it’s easy to correct." www.8a.nu
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alpiner
Sep 13, 2003, 7:05 PM
Post #40 of 49
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Registered: Feb 23, 2003
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In reply to: Regarding the 'fat burning' discussion mentioned by a prior poster. I think Neumann is correct the way he presented it.
Then you are as outdated as he is. Running long and slow on an empty stomach as he suggests is simply lousy training and scientifically unsound.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 13, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Hmmmm. I didn't read that part--I just flipped through the scientific explanation of GAET in the prior chapter, which seemed reasonable (ie he wasn't professing that there is an inherently inefficient intensity zone like those late night infomercials do.)
I agree, I'm not sure what his justification is for training before breakfast. Was this in vogue in the early nineties when the book was written? Can't remember.
An interesting side note: A German climber once told me that Neumann has written a number of books and that there is a heavily updated version of PRC available. Unfortunately, it's in German and I find that language completely unfathomable.
In any event, I stand corrected.
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redpoint73
Sep 13, 2003, 10:44 PM
Post #42 of 49
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In reply to: Something that I think creates a contextual bias in this argument is that most memebers of this site are big on the "the best training for climbing is climbing." I'm not sure if that's due to a larger trad population or just a more vocal trad population (not bagging on tradsters).
That's an interesting view. I say this because I also believe that the best training for climbing is climbing, and I am largely (though not exclusively) a sport climber. I also think most sport climber would agree with the notion.
I think this has more to do with the fact that most other forms of training (weights, hangboard, etc.) may make certain muscles stronger. But they don't train all the types of hold positions possible, nor do they teach anything about body position, body tension, or climbing movement.
I'm a big fan of campus training, as it seems to have increased my lockoff strength considerably. And I spend quite a bit of time at the climbing gym. But I still think that my time is spent most effectively on real rock. Its just that many people don't have the time to hit the crag as much as they would like.
I will agree with you that many people on this site will insist that technique is more imprtant than strength. My personal feeling as that developing both are important, maybe even equally so -- at least in the first couple years for most climbers. I think those people are forgetting how whipped their fingers and forearms felt when they were still learning. Sure, better footwork and other skills will reduce the amount of work you have to do with your upper body. Even so, the increase in grip strength, lock-off, and shoulder strength is nothing to ignore as you progress through the grades.
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jt512
Sep 14, 2003, 4:26 PM
Post #43 of 49
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In reply to: Fluxus--I'm afraid I was the one who dissed Sagar's book, though if you liked it, great. I just thought it was a really sloppy piece of work. Innaccurate, repetitive, unoriginal, hard to follow, etc.
You forgot "incoherent."
-Jay
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collegekid
Sep 14, 2003, 7:11 PM
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i'm sorry, but i've found the the gains i've made through the use of my hangboard, over the course of the past 3 months, has noticably increased my ability to hang small holds (and climb harder boulder problems). Increasing technique (as someone else said) is pretty easy...traversing a lot one day a week can improve technique noticably.
wc...Two of my goals for the summer were to do a solid front lever and a one-arm pullup, along with the obvious finger strength gains needed for bouldering hard. I'm interested in your training program...could you give us some clue as to how it works? And pleeeaaase stop responding to people who are here just to give you $#!t.
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wyomingclimber
Sep 15, 2003, 12:52 PM
Post #45 of 49
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Yeah, the great thing about the Sagar book is that it's so easy. I'll leave the others to those more motivated than I.
Don't worry. My book has absolutely nothing to do with climbing.
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unabonger
Sep 15, 2003, 4:11 PM
Post #46 of 49
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In reply to: technique is very important (I would say most important). But I feel it is something you can't teach... you can only learn.
Please elaborate. Your "feeling" notwithstanding, technique can and has been successfully taught in a structured way to hundreds of climbers.
UnaBongerista
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jt512
Sep 15, 2003, 5:40 PM
Post #47 of 49
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In reply to: Increasing technique (as someone else said) is pretty easy...traversing a lot one day a week can improve technique noticably.
RC.com Quote of the Week nomination.
-Jay
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deadpointman
Sep 22, 2003, 1:02 PM
Post #48 of 49
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Hey wc: I'm a training guru of sorts who has read a lot of books on the subject of training for climbing, including 3 out of 4 of Eric Horst's training books (I've only avoided reading Flash Training because I don't believe there's anything of importance in that one that isn't covered in his other 3). I'd be more than happy to offer you some input if you personal message me.
For the rest of you, here's my contribution (I just can't help it): On page 9 of Heather Sagar's book, carefully read the directions for performing test #1 (that is the open-hand grip strength test--probably the most relevant out of all the tests that she offers). However, if you perform the test exactly as described (i.e. "with both hands"), then compare your data with the charts on page 16, the chances are that it will appear as though you have the strength to climb about 5.18!!! Really a terrible mistake, that to be honest, I'm surprised even made it into a rough draft, not to mention the printed book! :shock:
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lazide
Sep 22, 2003, 1:22 PM
Post #49 of 49
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My experience, having read all the books, blah blah blah, has been that it is always returns a greater investment training your weaknesses than increasing your strengths, at least in a sport as diverse as climbing. If you lack in endurance, but have good strength and technique (and are not fooling yourself into just THINKING you have good strength and technique ;) ), then train endurance. When that is no longer your weak point attack what is (technique say).
Everyone has a unique set of strengths and limitiations based on their past history (training, pre-sport activitives, liftstyle, etc), and hence has specific needs training wise.
Yes, better technique almost always helps - but there comes a point where even the best technique in the world will not allow you to hold on to a specific hold, or do the sequence necessary to do a specific move. In that case, you need more power, or more endurance, more more blah blah blah.
The big reason why technique is always mentioned, in my opinion, is that a) most people have sucky technique, and b) you use more power, and need more endurance to do a route if you have crappy technique.
Technique however is never going to let you latch x hold and stick it, or pull x hard sequence, if you do not have the basic power necessary. What confuses the issue is that the basic power necessary is usually a lot less than most people think.
Anyways, my 2c :wink:
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