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vgnkeith
Nov 10, 2003, 6:45 PM
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b12 is found in good supply in nutritional yeast. great for making vegan "cheeses" and as a flavoring for whatever. since most foods-breads and cereals especially-are fortified, missing vitamins are a thing of the past. i've rarely taken suppliments (only did becuase they were around) and have never had a problem (and still managed to climb harder). but if you eat a good diet-not chips and junk food-you'll be fine.
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climblouisiana
Nov 10, 2003, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: It has become so easy to be a vegitarian. Especially if you are a "Seagon"...vegetarian that eats seafood. Once we get to a level of discussing possible vitamin shortcomings we are so far ahead of the genaral population on the health track that it's not even funny. I have a diet diffeciant in number of climbing days this week. After moving from omnivore to seagan I went from solid 10 climber trying 11's to a solid 11 climber trying 12's. What a great thing. I also really like being a vegetarian because of the statment it makes about who I am being. It is such an important social statement to me. John
I didn't know that you could call yourself a vegetarian if you ate seafood, unless the seafood was kelp, seaweed, etc. Is a fish a vegetable?
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: b12 is found in good supply in nutritional yeast. great for making vegan "cheeses" and as a flavoring for whatever. since most foods-breads and cereals especially-are fortified, missing vitamins are a thing of the past. i've rarely taken suppliments (only did becuase they were around) and have never had a problem (and still managed to climb harder). but if you eat a good diet-not chips and junk food-you'll be fine.
Sorry, but you are mistaken. Numerous recently conducted studies show that 40% to 60% of vegans are deficient in vitamin B12.
-Jay
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: You mean aside from vegans with vitamin B12 deficiency, vegetarian women with iron deficiency, anorexics with protein-calorie malnutrition, and post-menopausal women with osteoporosis? -Jay
Interesting that you put anorexics and vegetarians in the same category. Working in mental health, I've run into a few people with eating disorders who are vegetarian. However, in those cases, being vegetarian is a symptom of an eating disorder, not the other way around. An anorexic may become vegetarian because they perceive it as a way to control their diet, weight, and life. But anorexics don't do it for health. You're not going to find a healthy anorexic, meat-eating or otherwise. That's the nature of that disease.
Regarding your other comments... If you don't eat a healthy, balanced diet, you won't be healthy. Osteoporosis and iron deficiency can all be attributed to poor diet -- and that applies to meat-eaters and vegetarians alike. But look at the big picture. I bet you'll find a significantly higher proportion of health problems related to a meat-based diet than a vegetarian one.
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 8:20 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, but you are mistaken. Numerous recently conducted studies show that 40% to 60% of vegans are deficient in vitamin B12.
From what I've read, vitamin B-12 deficiency is quite rare. But you may be right. Please provide the reference to these numerous recently conducted studies so I may further educate myself. Thanks.
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You mean aside from vegans with vitamin B12 deficiency, vegetarian women with iron deficiency, anorexics with protein-calorie malnutrition, and post-menopausal women with osteoporosis? -Jay Interesting that you put anorexics and vegetarians in the same category.
I did no such thing. A poster asked if I knew of any modern cases of deficiency-related diseases? I gave a few examples.
In reply to: I bet you'll find a significantly higher proportion of health problems related to a meat-based diet than a vegetarian one.
Since you've asked me to post references to document my assertion about B12 deficiency among vegans, I'm going to ask you to do the same. Post up. References from peer-review literature only, please.
-Jay
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jansuw
Nov 10, 2003, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: Omega-3 is something which has been highly recommended to me thru Fish oil (gag). One of these days I might get the guts up to try it. Someone on this thread said they thought of all people vegetarians should get more of it than non vegetarians. Your logic is curious.
Well the source I quoted stated that non-animal sources of Omega-3 include seeds (flax seed), walnuts and 'dark leafy vegetables'. Omnivores would get it mainly from fish. How many people admit to eating fish regularly? If you're a vegetarian and not eating leafy vegetables and nuts/seeds, then may I ask, what are you eating, and arent you getting tired of the same thing everyday? I find that vegetarians/vegans eat more varied. How many people find themselves choosing between chicken or beef, and lamb, fish or pork on occassion, and then choosing whether to have pasta, rice or potatoes. Or maybe beans one day? Oh, and then stick some salad leaves or something in...
I dont know if I'm correct, but from everything I've read, I've created this image in my head where an informed vegetarian or vegan is healthier than the average westerner. Their diet is more varied and they're more conscious of what they eat, while their dietary restrictions force them to eat healthy, low fat, vitamin full foods. Jt512 is a dietary something, right? He probably can find some facts and figures... :)
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 9:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sorry, but you are mistaken. Numerous recently conducted studies show that 40% to 60% of vegans are deficient in vitamin B12. From what I've read, vitamin B-12 deficiency is quite rare. But you may be right. Please provide the reference to these numerous recently conducted studies so I may further educate myself. Thanks.
You mean, so I can educate you. Here are abstracts from 3 studies:
1: Clin Chim Acta. 2002 Dec;326(1-2):47-59.
Vegetarian lifestyle and monitoring of vitamin B-12 status.
Herrmann W, Geisel J.
Vegetarians are at risk to develop deficiencies of some essential nutrients, especially vitamin B-12 (cobalamin). Cobalamin occurs in substantial amounts only in foods derived from animals and is essential for one-carbon metabolism and cell division. Low nutritional intake of vitamin B-12 may lead to negative balance and, finally, to functional deficiency when tissue stores of vitamin B-12 are depleted. Early diagnosis of vitamin B-12 deficiency seems to be useful because irreversible neurological damages may be prevented by cobalamin substitution.The search for a specific and sensitive test to diagnose vitamin B-12 deficiency is ongoing. Serum vitamin B-12 measurement is a widely applied standard method. However, the test has poor predictive value. Optimal monitoring of cobalamin status in vegetarians should include the measurement of homocysteine (HCY), methylmalonic acid (MMA), and holotranscobalamin II. Vitamin B-12 deficiency can be divided into four stages. In stages I and II, indicated by a low plasma level of holotranscobalamin II, the plasma and cell stores become depleted. Stage III is characterized by increased levels of HCY and MMA in addition to lowered holotranscobalamin II. In stage IV, clinical signs become recognizable like macroovalocytosis, elevated MCV of erythrocytes or lowered haemoglobin. In our investigations, we have found stage III of vitamin B-12 deficiency in over 60% of vegetarians, thus underlining the importance of cobalamin monitoring in this dietary group.
2: Am J Hematol. 2002 Jun;70(2):107-14.
Hyperhomocysteinemia and cobalamin deficiency in young Asian Indians in the United States.
Carmel R, Mallidi PV, Vinarskiy S, Brar S, Frouhar Z.
Hyperhomocysteinemia, a risk factor for vascular disease, may be a particular problem in Asian Indians, but information is limited, especially in the U.S., despite its growing Asian population. Moreover, suggestions have been made that folate deficiency is responsible for the hyperhomocysteinemia in Indians. Therefore, we studied homocysteine status in healthy Asian Indians in the U.S. prospectively, determined the frequency of cobalamin and folate deficiency as contributors to it, and examined whether food-cobalamin absorption contributed to cobalamin deficiency. Homocysteine levels were higher in Asian Indian men than in 4 other ethnic groups (P < 0.0001); 10/39 Indian men (25.6%) were hyperhomocysteinemic. Cobalamin levels were lower in Indian men (P = 0.000005) and women (P = 0.03) than in non-Indians; low levels were found more frequently in both Indian men (23/39; 59.0%) and women (5/21; 23.8%) than in others. Measuring methylmalonic acid in 10 selected subjects showed that the low cobalamin levels reflected cobalamin deficiency, and high methylmalonic acid levels were found in some subjects without hyperhomocysteinemia. Evidence of folate deficiency was not found in any subjects. Food-cobalamin absorption was normal in all 13 Indian subjects tested, including those with Helicobacter pylori infection. The results show that hyperhomocysteinemia is strikingly common in apparently healthy, young Asian Indian men. The cause appears to be cobalamin [vitamin] deficiency, which affected more than half of the Indian men, may be largely subclinical, is underestimated by homocysteine levels alone which were not always abnormal, and is probably largely dietary in origin. Folate deficiency is rare. This public health problem is amenable to prevention and treatment in this growing segment of the U.S. population. It was, parenthetically, noteworthy that many of the affected subjects were young physician trainees. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
3: Am J Hematol. 2002 Jul;70(3):186-90.
Independent effect of vitamin B12 deficiency on hematological status in older Chinese vegetarian women.
We have examined the independent effect of vitamin B(12) deficiency on hematological indices in older Chinese vegetarian women using a cross-sectional study design: 119 women older than 55 years who had been vegetarian for more than 3 years were studied. Fasting blood samples were taken for complete blood count, serum iron, total serum iron binding capacity, serum iron saturation, serum vitamin B(12), serum folate, serum methylmalonic acid levels (MMA), and renal function test. Subjects with iron deficiency (iron saturation <15%) and those with serum creatinine >150 mmol/L were excluded. The prevalence of definite vitamin B(12) deficiency (vitamin B(12) level < 150 pmol/L and MMA >or= 0.4 micromol/L) was 42%. Another 32.8% had possible vitamin B(12) deficiency (either criterion). The prevalence of iron deficiency was 10%. After exclusions, 96 subjects were further analyzed. Vitamin B(12) deficiency defined by serum vitamin B(12) and MMA was associated with a decrease in hemoglobin concentrations by up to 0.9 g/dL, but it was not associated with an increase in mean corpuscular volume (MCV). Serum MMA but not vitamin B(12) levels correlated inversely with hemoglobin and platelet counts and positively with MCV, after adjustment of confounding factors. However, the percentage of subjects with anemia did not increase significantly until serum MMA became >1.0 micromol/L. In conclusion, vitamin B(12) deficiency was associated with a significant decrease in hemoglobin concentration. However, anemia associated with vitamin B(12) deficiency was seldom macrocytic. We recommend that older vegetarians should be given vitamin B(12) supplements routinely. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
The above are typical. Many more examples can be found using Pubmed, the National Library of Medicine's search engine, which is available to the public (hint).
-Jay
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: I did no such thing. A poster asked if I knew of any modern cases of deficiency-related diseases? I gave a few examples. ... Since you've asked me to post references to document my assertion about B12 deficiency among vegans, I'm going to ask you to do the same. Post up. References from peer-review literature only, please.
You're right. My bad. I misread the question that you were responding to.
Regarding health problems of a meat-based diet... Sometimes information is accepted with such validity that it leaves the realm of peer-reviewed literature and becomes public knowledge. Kind of like how we all know that seatbelts save lives. Am I citing specific percentages here? No. I'm just saying that most people know that a diet high in animal-based fats and low in fiber can lead to increased risk of high-cholesterol, obesity, clogged arteries, heart attacks, and colon problems, as compared to a vegetarian diet. Do I recall off the top of my head the authors and publishers of studies that have shown this over the years? No, I do not. Sorry.
But you made pretty specific assertion in your post and said that it is supported by numerous recent studies. If that is the case, I assume you must have read them. Please provide a reference. I'd actually like to know. Anyway, I asked first. :lol:
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: The above are typical. Many more examples can be found using Pubmed, the National Library of Medicine's search engine, which is available to the public (hint). -Jay
Thanks for posting this. That information is new to me. Now, you can also use PubMed to find those specific studies you requested that link meat-based diets to clogged arteries, heart disease, etc...
Overall, I think this debate can be summarized as follows:
There can be problems with a vegetarian diet
There can be problems with a meat-based diet.
Ultimately, it comes down to the individual. Many meat-eaters are healthier than vegetarians, and many vegetarians are healthier than meat eaters. I stand by what I said in my first post, which is that it comes down to the individual having a sensible, varied diet, whether it's veggie or meat-based.
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 10:21 PM
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Jay, since you went to the trouble of citing your references, it's only fair that I do the same. Here are several studies about the health benefits of a vegetarian diet... It's interesting that the first article I referenced states that there are a few risks from a vegetarian diet, namely increased intestinal gas production :shock: and a "small risk" of B-12 deficiency.
Here are the links if anyone is interested, also courtesy of PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10627874&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7652722&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10479215&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10687887&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12448204&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11593351&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9812174&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11022876&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826028&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10641813&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12723010
This is one is not a study per se, but interesting nonetheless:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826028&dopt=Abstract
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: Regarding health problems of a meat-based diet... Sometimes information is accepted with such validity that it leaves the realm of peer-reviewed literature and becomes public knowledge. Kind of like how we all know that seatbelts save lives. Am I citing specific percentages here? No. I'm just saying that most people know that a diet high in animal-based fats and low in fiber can lead to increased risk of high-cholesterol, obesity, clogged arteries, heart attacks, and colon problems, as compared to a vegetarian diet.
Do people know this or do people just believe it? Do the lit search and decide for yourself. What you wrote was this:
In reply to: But look at the big picture. I bet you'll find a significantly higher proportion of health problems related to a meat-based diet than a vegetarian one.
Specific proportions? No. But you are still making an implicit claim, that a meat-based diet causes a significantly higher proportion of health problems than a vegetarian one. This hypothesis has indeed been studied. Why don't you look up the studies and see what the current research says about this? Is this so-called widely held belief of yours in fact true? I mean, you want to know the truth, don't you?
-Jay
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jt512
Nov 10, 2003, 11:01 PM
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In reply to: Jay, since you went to the trouble of citing your references, it's only fair that I do the same. Here are several studies about the health benefits of a vegetarian diet... It's interesting that the first article I referenced states that there are a few risks from a vegetarian diet, namely increased intestinal gas production :shock: and a "small risk" of B-12 deficiency. Here are the links if anyone is interested, also courtesy of PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10627874&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7652722&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10479215&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10687887&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12448204&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11593351&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9812174&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11022876&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826028&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10641813&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12723010 This is one is not a study per se, but interesting nonetheless: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826028&dopt=Abstract
I should have known better than to get into this with a non-scientist. What you've done is pulled up a bunch of articles on one side of the issue, and ignored all the ones on the other. Heck, you've even got one article by Kwok, who has published research showing high prevalences of B12 deficiency among vegetarians. Try looking at both sides of the issue and see what you come up with. If you take an honest, objective view, instead of one clouded by your pre-conceived notions I tghink you'll see that the evidence is at best, equivocal.
None of the studies you posted directly addresses your supposition that there is a "significantly higher proportion of health problems related to a meat-based diet than a vegetarian one." However, that hypothesis has indeed been studied directly in the largest study ever conducted on the health affects of vegetarian diets. That study, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, compared 28,000 vegetarians with 48,000 omnivore controls, and found no significant differences in total mortality rates between the two groups.*
-Jay
*Key TJ, Fraser GE, Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Beral V, Reeves G, Burr ML, Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R, Kuzma JW, Mann J, McPherson K. Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a
collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):516S-524S.
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bbziger
Nov 10, 2003, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: I should have known better than to get into this with a non-scientist. What you've done is pulled up a bunch of articles on one side of the issue, and ignored all the ones on the other. Heck, you've even got one article by Kwok, who has published research showing high prevalences of B12 deficiency among vegetarians.
Isn't that what you did when you cited your articles? You pulled up articles that supported your argument, and I pulled up articles that favored mine. That's generally what people do when they debate an issue.
Granted, I did not pull up an article that specifically defended my assertion that there are more health problems due to a meat-based diet than a vegetarian diet. But the articles I pulled up do support the benefits of a vegetarian diet in many areas, such as cholesterol levels, colon health, and more.
The possible negative aspect of a vegan diet that you mentioned, the B-12 deficiency, is something that I'm not arguing with you about. All I questioned was the percentage you cited, and you showed me the research that substantiated it. In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that B-12 is only found naturally in meat, dairy, and egg. I stated that vegans can get B-12 through fortified cereals or a one-a-day multivitamin. I'm not disputing Kwok. You'll notice that he recognizes the benefits of a vegetarian diet as well.
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oceannas
Nov 11, 2003, 12:06 AM
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I've been vegetarian for a long time and I didn't had too much problem since I started to travel more....I was so tired to always search and ask for special food...when your on a trip, you want to be there with everybody and not use to make like if your were at home....well that's why I stoped!
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jt512
Nov 11, 2003, 12:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I should have known better than to get into this with a non-scientist. What you've done is pulled up a bunch of articles on one side of the issue, and ignored all the ones on the other. Heck, you've even got one article by Kwok, who has published research showing high prevalences of B12 deficiency among vegetarians. Isn't that what you did when you cited your articles?
No. I posted abstracts that were representative of the current literature.
In reply to: You pulled up articles that supported your argument, and I pulled up articles that favored mine. That's generally what people do when they debate an issue.
I don't debate. I'm a scientist, not a lawyer.
In reply to: But the articles I pulled up do support the benefits of a vegetarian diet in many areas, such as cholesterol levels, colon health, and more.
More accurate would be to say, cholesterol levels and colon health, period. What the review by Fraser suggests is that the potential benefits in those two areas are offset by increased risks of other cancers.
Some studies show that the entire increased colon cancer risk among omnivores is due to processed red meats. It's not clear whether the decrease among vegetarians in heart disease is due to elimination of meat or other correlated dietary and lifestyle factors. And it is difficult to argue that fatty fish are bad for you. One thing that I've learned studying nutrition is that what you do eat is more important than what you don't. The healthiest foods appear to be whole vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, and fatty fish. Diets high in refined foods are unhealthy whether they are vegetarian or mixed.
-Jay
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bbziger
Nov 11, 2003, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: No. I posted abstracts that were representative of the current literature. ..... I don't debate. I'm a scientist, not a lawyer.
Picky, picky... Now we're arguing semantics here!
In reply to: Some studies show that the entire increased colon cancer risk among omnivores is due to processed red meats. It's not clear whether the decrease among vegetarians in heart disease is due to elimination of meat or other correlated dietary and lifestyle factors. And it is difficult to argue that fatty fish are bad for you. One thing that I've learned studying nutrition is that what you do eat is more important than what you don't. The healthiest foods appear to be whole vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, and fatty fish. Diets high in refined foods are unhealthy whether they are vegetarian or mixed.
Finally, we have a point of agreement. I agree that lifestyle factors, eating whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and healthy fats, while avoiding refined foods are the key to good health. Since a vegetarian diet normally (not always, mind you) encompasses those key elements, that's probably why people often view it as the healthier alternative.
And you're right. I won't argue that fish is unhealthy. The reason I don't eat it is that I've been a vegetarian for so long that I don't find it appetizing anymore.
I get the feeling that we're both the type who like to get in the last word, so I'll pull out of this thread now... Thanks for the debate, or whatever you want to call it!
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iltripp
Nov 11, 2003, 1:16 AM
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I am not going to enter the debate about whether it's better to be an omnivore or a vegitarian. I think both can be perfectly reasonable healthy diets if done the right way.
Meat eating diets are not implicitly unhealthy, but I would say that many vegetarians can be more health conscious (to a point). For example, compare the average american to a vegetarian who has a good concept of what his diet diet needs (getting omega-3's, protein and B-vitamins). I'd say the veggie is gonna have a healthier diet simply because the average american thinks that as long as they get DIET coke with that big-mac, they'll be fine. However, I would say that a health conscious meat-eater who also tries to eat plenty of vegetables and fish will have an easier time being healthy than a vegetarian. Not that one way is better...
One word of caution. Many people have said how it's easy for vegetarians to be healthy and how there aren't many risks. I would definitely argue against that. Many long term vegetarians don't realize the depletion that their body goes through at times. I'm not arguing against vegetarians, but don't think that just because you eat plenty of veggies, you're healthy. Any vegetarion, or anyone considering becoming one, needs to do some serious research before deciding what to do. Realize what you're getting into and make sure you have a sound-diet. Really look up some information and don't listen to the advice of every wannabe-expert at RC.com and take it as gospel.
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jt512
Nov 11, 2003, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: No. I posted abstracts that were representative of the current literature. ..... I don't debate. I'm a scientist, not a lawyer. Picky, picky... Now we're arguing semantics here!
Baloney. Surely you can understand the difference between objectively picking abstracts that are representative of the literature, and picking abstracts that are not.
In reply to: I agree that lifestyle factors, eating whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and healthy fats, while avoiding refined foods are the key to good health. Since a vegetarian diet normally (not always, mind you) encompasses those key elements...
That's true, but most vegetarians fail to consume enough of these foods. See, for example:
Haddad EH, Tanzman JS. What do vegetarians in the United States eat? Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):626S-632S.
-Jay
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jansuw
Nov 12, 2003, 4:47 PM
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So have we come to the conclusion that diet does not have a relationship with general health? I believe it has more to do with a persons attitude towards health, rather than their actual dietary habits. For example I have a vegetarian friend, an american woman, and I really doubt that she has any knowledge of what she would need to eat to be a healthy vegetarian. I'm not exactly sure of her motives, but I'm quite sure that she isnt completely informed on the dietary/health issues related with her dietary choice.
I hope no one here is considering a vegetarian/vegan diet because of health reasons. I feel valid reasons would be ethical or to do with a persons beliefs. Maybe someone feels it makes them a better person, that I would think is valid. Because its 'cool' or 'hip'... sounds sketchy... :?
What were people's reasons for the dietary change?
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reiguy
Nov 12, 2003, 4:49 PM
Post #46 of 62
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Registered: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 10
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EAT ROCKS!!!!
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vgnkeith
Nov 24, 2003, 5:31 PM
Post #47 of 62
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Registered: Nov 10, 2003
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what studies? i myself have never had a problem with b12 and neither have any of the vegans/vegetarians i've met. but it doesn't really matter, most of the rda ratings are bogus. you don't need nearly the amount that is recommended (not in all cases). most individuals who develop a vitamin B12 deficiency have an underlying stomach or intestinal disorder that limits the absorption of vitamin B12. for adults who have made the vegan switch, it's hard to see signs of b12 loss since it takes years (up to 20 or 30 years) to deplete the body of the stored b12. it's more of a problem for children and infants. i just find it hard to believe that many vegans are bad eaters (silk-soymilk-in one serving has 50% of what you need. redstar nutritional yeast has the rda in one tablespoon) or have stomach problems that aide in b12 deficiency. not being a turd, just giving info.
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jt512
Nov 24, 2003, 6:13 PM
Post #48 of 62
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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In reply to: what studies?
Um, how about the ones I quoted on the previous page, for starters.
In reply to: i myself have never had a problem with b12 and neither have any of the vegans/vegetarians i've met.
How would you know? Have you/they had your/their serum methymalonic acid tested? That's the only accurate test of functional B12 status.
In reply to: but it doesn't really matter...
True. What's a little heart disease, irreversible neuropathy, and birth defects, anyway.
In reply to: most of the rda ratings are bogus.
Yeah, they're all made up off the top of someone's head. All those nitrogen balance, calcium balance, etc., studies... meaningless.
In reply to: you don't need nearly the amount that is recommended (not in all cases).
And how do you know if you are one of those cases, Einstein.
In reply to: most individuals who develop a vitamin B12 deficiency have an underlying stomach or intestinal disorder that limits the absorption of vitamin B12.
True, but irrelevant. Most vegan's have dietary B12 deficiency.
In reply to: for adults who have made the vegan switch, it's hard to see signs of b12
Exactly. It's hard to see signs of B12 deficiency. Nonetheless they are there. By the time you actually see overt signs of B12 deficiency, you're already in late stages of deficiency, and verging on severe disease.
In reply to: loss since it takes years (up to 20 or 30 years) to deplete the body of the stored b12.
In your dreams, maybe. Your numbers are inflated by at least a factor of 10, and I know of cases in which severe deficiency manifested in only a few months after switching to a vegan diet. The fact of the matter is half to 2/3 of all vegans have functional B12 deficiency. Got that? 2 out of 3 of you and your friends are deficient in B12.
In reply to: i just find it hard to believe that many vegans are bad eaters...
That's why we do controlled scientific research. Because our "beliefs" are unreliable.
In reply to: just giving info.
Misinformation, actually.
-Jay
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mreardon
Nov 24, 2003, 6:30 PM
Post #49 of 62
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Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
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1. Scientists argue objectively, unless a research grant is under fire;
2. Current literature might be wrong, because all good scientists are constantly provinding new insights to what may have been wrong to date;
3. JT does bring many articles, but they can be a bit one-sided to prove his point. He's a big fan of statistics because that's what he does for a living, some of which are right - today. Tomorrow we'll see....
If you believe in the RDA, then three bowls of Kellogg's Special K a day will give you 105% of your daily B12 and most of your other vitamins. Take a couple multi-vitamins and you're supposedly all set. Add milk and you have enough for two days. Obviously you need a bit more than that.
Get your tests, but more importantly, pay attention to your body. There are those that do well on purely veg. diets (a couple billion if I recall), and there are those who need some meat in their diet (raising my own hand for sushi), and there are those who live on steak and potatos and live a healthy life (my Irish eastcoasters). Find the balance, do the research, and adapt to what fits you personally rather than force yourself into a statistic.
We each have different fingerprints, just maybe we each have different nutritional needs.
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njbourne
Nov 24, 2003, 6:42 PM
Post #50 of 62
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Registered: Mar 4, 2003
Posts: 113
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All of you that watch South Park know what happens if you stop eating meat.
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