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bigfoot
Oct 29, 2003, 10:12 PM
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All the recent discussions involving free soloing leads me to wonder, do you guys free solo? If you do, do you solo often? and do you solo routes that you consider difficult? From recent forums it seems to be an issue that splits the climbing community in half. Personally, I hate the idea of risking my life, just for the reward of getting to the top of a wall without a rope- so I guess my question to all the solo-ers out there is; why do you solo? Are there any articles about solo climbers and their death, do most solo climbers die soloing, or, like Yabo (Lynn Hill, "Climbing Free"), pass due to other reasons? Just wondering..........Sorry about the rambling questions. :D :D
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hello_heino
Oct 29, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: why do you solo?
It's more fun, exciting, and mentally demanding than encumbered climbing.
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gravitytheory
Oct 29, 2003, 10:35 PM
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I solo because I haven't showered in years. :shock:
Just kidding. Rope up--it'll save your life.
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bandycoot
Oct 29, 2003, 10:39 PM
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Why climb?
If you like to climb, it's not because of the gear most likely. It's the movement over the rock that holds the appeal. If you KNOW that you can climb something without falling, why bring the gear? All it will do is distract and slow you down. I have soloed for 4 reasons specifically:
1. First time soloing, my partner wanted to "warm up" by soloing a 800+' route at Tahquitz. I didn't feel completely comfortable having never done the route so I requested we wear harnesses, bring 4-5 pieces of gear and a rope. He agreed and we were off. We soloed White Maiden's Walkaway at Tahquitz in about 20 minutes. It was great!
2. I felt the urge and didn't want to wait for the gear. I wanted it to be me and the rock, nothing else.
3. I had no partner. My climbing partners were leaving early from Tahquitz and so I onsight soloed The Trough for something to do during the afternoon.
4. There was no pro/anchor. I eyed a beautiful striking 10- offwidth at Mt Woodson for a couple years. I didn't even know it was named for the first few. It's called Big Grunt. When I finally decided to climb it, I got on top of the rock and found no GOOD way to make an anchor. The crux was getting into the offwidth/squeeze chimney, so I just soloed it.
#2 is my most common reason for soloing.
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chossmonkey
Oct 29, 2003, 10:43 PM
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That is kinda like non-climbers asking climbers why they love climbing. You'll get a different answer from everybody and I don't think most people would really totally understand no matter how good the answer. It's totally a personal thing. I don't solo all that much but when I do it is about the mental part for me. I don't climb anything remotely close to my limit. I think it helps me to keep a cooler head when doing harder trad leads and highball bouldering. If you have to ask others why they do it, it's probably not right for you so don't even think about it.
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rockclimbingpyro
Oct 29, 2003, 10:47 PM
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i think that if you have the balls to do it and feel comfortable, go for it!i think i may try soloing one day but for now i'm gona stick to a rope! and soloing 5.11 and .12s :shock: thats crazy!! but what ever floats you boat or blows up your skirt...
good luck
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hroldan
Oct 29, 2003, 10:48 PM
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I love life = don't want to die or put me in danger of it
My skills aren't that good to "solo" but i've done things on my own that later you say "are you nuts?" and have climbed alone with a self belay device, but is not for risking your life, is just that there are some activities that just make you disapear, i like that feelling. Just like my first lead (5.10) i was totally afraid of leading but eager to do it. I just did it and before i knew i was at 80% of the route and that feeling!!! i just disapeared, suddenly everything made sense... there was no rush... totally focus... I have bouldered some high stuff (and that feeling showed too)
Sometimes you wan't to do it and people think you are spraying, so that's why do it alone.
I admire soloers and in my own mind there's dispute about it but just the memory... i often ask myself why i haven't found other thing that can be performed without risk and get that feeling too (which is so hard to explain).
There are things in life that once you've tasted it you want to taste it again.
great post, i wan't to hear what true soloers feel.
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telemarkist
Oct 29, 2003, 10:50 PM
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how do you train for the mental side of climbing? for me soloing is just that, training myself for those "can't fall here spots" that are common at areas like tuolumne, I see little difference falling at 60 or 160ft. out on lead or solo from the same height. the outcome will very likely be the same. I prefer to know the limits of my physical and mental skills, my life sometimes depends on it.
wev'e been beatin this one to death lately, this is my post from the other day/thread but it fits here as well
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alwaysforward
Oct 29, 2003, 10:53 PM
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"In all the splendor of solitude... it is a test of myself, and one thing I loathe is to have to test myself in front of other people."
— Naomi Uemura
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xcire
Oct 29, 2003, 11:08 PM
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Only reason I can think of: for the insurance money
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dingus
Oct 29, 2003, 11:24 PM
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Define a clear line of demarcation between soloing and what... hiking? Scrambling? Then maybe we can debate the wider merits.
I climb mountains, among other things. I frequently do that alone.
If I solo 2nd class terrain, like wow! I walked cross country unassisted and alone. Whoo hoo!
If I solo 3rd class terrain I am doing nothing stout men and women of yesteryear couldn't manage in hobnailed logging boots and riding skirts. Still, I've seen plenty of 3rd class terrain that would be bad to fall from.
If I solo 4th class I'm finally bucking the trend and going ropeless where others rope up. But still, this is 4th class, terrain upon which my predessors found it unnecessary to place any pro at all between belays. Now you might call that free soloing and I'd agree with you, at least for the leader anyway. But I doubt many conjur up an image of 4th class terrain when they picture free soloing.
If I solo 5th class terrain, finally I am purposely going without rope where one is expressly used. And yet, if the entire mountain contains a solitary 5th class move along with 1000 yards of 3rd class, 12 miles of 2nd and another 10 miles of trail... just what have I free soloed and why?
Did I free solo "just to get to the top of the wall?" Sounds stupid in the context of a gym I bet. Is it equally stupid to press through that single move and make the summit, or just bag it and go home?
And what's the line of demarcation between bouldering and free soloing? It's a wide gray line, I'll tell you that. It fluxes, waxes and wans depending upon rock, skill, landing consequences and headspace. What is a desperate free solo for me might be nearly a casual boulder problems for some hardwoman.
And what about that dude leading the climb one pitch over? I couldn't help but notice he runs it out big time on moderate terrain, which, on a mountain like this is most of the time. He's going 50, 75, sometimes 100 feet between placements. And he's simulclimbing to boot. Why, if the 2nd falls at the wrong moment, they're both likely dead dead dead. Effective free soloing if you ask me, with weights thrown in for good measure.
See, free soloing evokes the image of the careless 21 year old guy out to impress the ladies by dashing up the Nutcracker for the weekend tourist run. And that goes on, a lot.
But there is a whole nuther class of free soloing that has little to do with impressing anyone and is typically found within the confines of a much larger game.
Why? The pleasure of climbing miles of granite, miles from home, utterly and completely alone, living life and responsible as only a climber can be, for every breath taken. Many folks boldly declare they will never free solo. Then they are confronted with some casual decision, move a top rope setup, clean up a belay anchor, scramble the last 40 feet to the rim, the 5th class move on a long peak climb, a fast moving storm, an injured mate, fire, earthquake, flood! And we find ourselves climbing without a rope. Will we be up for the task? Do you agree that there may be times in the life of a climber when going without a rope is not only preferrable but safer to boot?
Cheers
DMT
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watersprite
Oct 29, 2003, 11:33 PM
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Good post, Dingus. I respect your decisions and you know what you're about. I get anxious when new climbers start asking about free soloing. I guess I should mind my own business.
what bothers me is - it's happened to me recently ...while seconding, I got stuck and was out of hearing. The rope was too taut to downclimb. I hung on it, trying to get enough line to go down and then across, (Surrealistic Pillar - route was not stright up). Anyway, my partner felt the rope go taut, so he tied me off and began to solo down to me. I placed him in jeopardy by being too tired/ too weak to finish a pitch. once I was tied off, I could skip the rope over a couple of knobs, and eventually went across and back up, til my partner saw me.
long story short - it's a personal decision that can affect me, as well, and I would hate to be "responsible" for someone having to free solo to help me out if something happened to him.
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mattdog
Oct 29, 2003, 11:48 PM
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I have a son who depends upon me to be there from the moment he wakes up to the time he goes to bed, for the rest of his life. I have a wife who dedicated her life to me, to which I owe the same duty.
I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable.
My personal choice. There's nothing wrong with others, but this is mine.
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dingus
Oct 29, 2003, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: I get anxious when new climbers start asking about free soloing. I guess I should mind my own business.
I mean you no personal disrespect with the following:
I have noted this sentiment frequently expressed by women climbers. Much less frequently by men.
Is this the mothering instinct?
Some of us guys could and would watch some stupid young punk try to solo something right next to us, watch him auger in from 100 feet up and we'd turn to each other and say, "I TOLD YOU he was gonna crater! I got dibs on the shoes if they're 10's!"
And yet, often enough that I can remember the posts, women seem, I don't know, particularly offended by the notion of a noob even ASKING about free soloing. And woe to the person who is perceived as glorifying this forbidden activity, this taboo.
What say you to that?
Cheers
DMT
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dingus
Oct 29, 2003, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable.
I'm curious, with such strong sentiment, how do you justify the inherent risk of climbing at all? No offense intended, just chatting mate.
DMT
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 30, 2003, 12:07 AM
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Everybody who rockclimbs also freesolos.
People who deny this scare me.
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 12:08 AM
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Yes, D. It's a mothering thing. Just like if women ruled the world, they wouldn't send their sons and husbands to war. unless they were PMSing.
serious, though. its a testosterone loaded activity. I don't tell men not to start fights in bars or piss on the side of the highway. what good would it do? I just nod and smile, nod and smile...
and re why take the risk at all? I waited until my youngest was 17 to start climbing - she was 18 before I did a multipitch, so I think I have at least raised my kids, and if something happens, I know I didn't leave them minors at least.
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climb_plastic
Oct 30, 2003, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: I love life = don't want to die or put me in danger of it
Life is about putting it out there on the line. If you don't then life can be leaving you behind and you don't even know it.
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jono
Oct 30, 2003, 12:16 AM
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ive only done it once and even then it was only like 35 feet, if you can even call that a free-solo. to this day i dont know why i did it. i dont think i would ever free-solo in the future because i would probably freak out near the top of a "true solo." bottom line, i dont have enough experience to trust myself without a rope. even if it was a 5.7 i just dont trust myself. ill stick to my new found love...trad.
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pixelguru
Oct 30, 2003, 12:28 AM
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In reply to: If I solo 4th class I'm finally bucking the trend and going ropeless where others rope up.
While not exactly the kind of soloing that gets printed on magazine covers, I thought this was relevant.
At my local crag, there are several areas that require pulling very exposed moves in order to reach the base of routes or belay ledges. I personally felt confident doing them... but I made a point to climb slowly and concentrate on what I was doing.
The problem with this is that it encourages others who may not be as confident to pull the same moves because they saw me do it. Monkey see - monkey do. Worse, I've seen stronger climbers in a traveling group impatiently push weaker climbers into doing dangerous things unroped even though the novices were obviously freaked by the situation.
I've started trying to set a good example and rope up at these exposed spots. It doesn't do any harm, and it may do a lot of good.
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braon
Oct 30, 2003, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: ive only done it once and even then it was only like 35 feet, if you can even call that a free-solo. to this day i dont know why i did it. i dont think i would ever free-solo in the future because i would probably freak out near the top of a "true solo." bottom line, i dont have enough experience to trust myself without a rope. even if it was a 5.7 i just dont trust myself. ill stick to my new found love...trad. |
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pixelguru
Oct 30, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: Life is about putting it out there on the line. If you don't then life can be leaving you behind and you don't even know it.
I would think that if the only way you feel alive is by risking death, you need to re-examine your reasons for living.
I personally plan on leading a thrilling and exciting life, but I still wear my seatbelt while driving, bike helmet while riding (broke 2 with my head in them), and I overbuild my anchors while climbing.
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: serious, though. its a testosterone loaded activity. I don't tell men not to start fights in bars or piss on the side of the highway. what good would it do? I just nod and smile, nod and smile...
I have to disagree here. I have participated in many sports in my rather short life (including running and boxing). I find climbing to be one of the least testosterone loaded. This is proven by the number of awesome women climbers. This is not too say that testosterone doesn't come into play or that many of us climbers are testosterone loaded (piss me off and you'll see that I am), but I wouldn't call it a defining characteristic of either climbing or soloing.
I've only soloed very few extremely easy routes, nothing that I felt in danger in, so I'm not an expert on the subject. However, I think that people solo for some of the same reasons they climb. Climbing can often be a huge adrenaline rush (maybe this is why you call it testosterone loaded), but I think one thing that attracts climbers is the stage where it's not an adrenaline rush, but a moment of zen. I don't like adrenaline climbing. It messes with my head, makes my hands sweat, and impairs my ability. I climb for the feeling of absolute focus. I climb for those moments of total zen, when you're mind and body are centered and working in total unity. This is the opposite of adrenaline and testosterone and it is infinitely better. I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of people who solo do so for the same feeling.
You experts out there can correct me if I'm wrong...
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 12:56 AM
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in my very limited climbing experience, I have found it to be loaded with manly hormones! come on man! is there anything more male than extreme sports - extreme sport bikes, ice climbing, white water kayaking? it's all good, just - don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about zen ok?
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: in my very limited climbing experience, I have found it to be loaded with manly hormones! come on man! is there anything more male than extreme sports - extreme sport bikes, ice climbing, white water kayaking? it's all good, just - don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about zen ok?
Sure... the danger aspect of climbing is somewhat testosterone induced, but I think there's a lot more to it. I never climbed that testosterone is not involved in climbing, only that it is NOT the reason why people solo. Again, that's just my take on it and I can only speak from my own experience. Also, I think extreme sports are based more on adrenaline than testosterone, which are totally different. Adrenaline = skydiving. Testosterone = football. Big difference, and women love a thrill too. IIn any case, it's not adrenaline or testosterone that makes me climb.
Furthermore, I am the farthest thing you can find from a "girly man" and it's not "pansy ass crap". I love climbing and will continue to love climbing for something entirely different then adrenaline and testosterone. I climb because I love the focus. It's the same zone feeling I used to get when running, but would you call long distance running a testosterone induced sport.
If climbing is all about a manly hormones, should we assume that you are a manly, testosterone driven, butch she-male? Why do you climb? Too many male hormones or do you have another reason?
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mattdog
Oct 30, 2003, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable. I'm curious, with such strong sentiment, how do you justify the inherent risk of climbing at all? No offense intended, just chatting mate. DMT
The same could be said for driving or anything else for that matter. Thing is, I've climbed for almost 2 years, and have hurt myself far less than I did playing soccer. Most of this was due to excellent instruction, and the protection of a good rope. Free soloing, not willing to take that risk. Kinda like driving without brakes. Yeah, I could do it on residential roads, but I don't get off on it.
Climbing is definitely NOT testosterone loaded. Football is testosterone loaded. Most active climbers, I have found, are pensive, solitary, and thoughtful. you never hear about the football playing "community." They are all out to WIN.
Yet every climber considers himself part of the climbing community. RC.com is an example of this. One post about free soloing and everyone is immediately part of the discussion, whether supportive or admonishing.
Rock on, I always say.... but don't rock on with a rope ;-)
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 1:23 AM
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well, my arms and back are looking very boyish. I'm not expressing myself well. yes, I climb for the focus, the intensity that makes everything else trivial - the heightened awareness that has nothing to do with chemistry. There is nothing better than the ache of bruised and tired muscles.
But then, everything I spew here is wrong ... just thinking off the top of my head.
There is nothing better than to kill your enemy and sleep with his women. Failing that, in a civilized society, you can outclimb him. I don't think climbers are inherently non-competitive. otherwise there wouldn't be so many pissing contests here.
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toejam
Oct 30, 2003, 1:25 AM
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I tried my first free solo the other day: The Eye on Cyclops Rock, Joshua Tree 5.1(felt more like a 5.3/5.4 but I might have been on Circe). I'd climbed it before on rope, and it just felt right for a free solo. Planning on trying the Trough on Tahquitz at some point. Having climbed it already, I am confident in my ability to climb it relatively safely and without straying from the route. Why do it? Really for the same reasons I climb: the challenge, and the esthetic appeal.
"While danger ought never to be needlessly incurred, it is yet true that the keenest zest in sport derives from its presence, and the consequent exercise of those abilities necessary to overcome it." - Teddy Roosevelt
While some would argue that to solo, or indeed to climb at all is to needlessly incur danger, my own estimation of the rewards of climbing and its impact elsewhere in my life justifies it. I am a safety freak, and generally more conservative than most climbers I've met, in terms of my comfort level with placements and anchors. I just don't see soloing certain routes as particularly dangerous, compared with leading trad on say a 5.9 with sketchy pro.
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rvega
Oct 30, 2003, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: Define a clear line of demarcation between soloing and what... hiking? See, free soloing evokes the image of the careless 21 year old guy out to impress the ladies by dashing up the Nutcracker for the weekend tourist run. And that goes on, a lot. But there is a whole nuther class of free soloing that has little to do with impressing anyone and is typically found within the confines of a much larger game. Cheers DMT
DMT,
You points were quite valid. When I first began climbing I went to a crag with only trad and sport routes. I had never seen someone boulder (or even hear of it) before. The first time I saw people "bouldering" I immediately thought they were free soloing. I just assumed they would fall either hurt themselves or hurt themselves and those crazy people standing right underneath them.
But now that I'm an experience climber I have different perceptions of soloing. Only once in the past had I ackownlegde that what I had done was soloing and it was not by any means a choice but by accident. Some of the things you pointed out made me think about some of the times I inadvertenly soloed when I was on an approach or an exit. I don't think I ever saw them as soloing but maybe you are right. Granted I never wanted to solo.
However I think when people discuss soloing they are talking about big 5 class climbs. In the recent issue of R&I they didn't mention any of the stuff you just did. The stories about Steph Davis on Snake Dike, Potter on Half Dome (forget the climbs name), and all the other stories were about doing serious rock climbing were a fall meant death and not about "hiking" or 4th classing it. This is what people are told is "soloing" and there in no wonder why people might question the rational for such a life decision.
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adamtd
Oct 30, 2003, 2:14 AM
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I like life and I enjoy climbing safely. When I go cragging I usea rope. When I go to teh high mountains I use a rope, but every once in a while it's faster and safer to solo a route. I don't solo an entire technical route that challenges me. I solo well below the level at which i lead and I do it with strong consideration. Very few people will argue with me when I say that soloing is much faster than setting anchors and placing gear. If you're in an avalanche clone or hnaging out underneith a nasty cornice that could go at any minute, I want to spend as little time there as possibel and there for solo it. It's teh age old question in teh mountains, "When do you climb roped/unroped?" I say that as you spend more time climbing and the more diverse situations you see, the more often you'll see a need for soling. Yes you can always turn around and head home, frankly, teh drive home can be more dangerous than ten feet of easy soloing.
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ricardol
Oct 30, 2003, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I do not free solo, because my death would not just result in my own lose of life, but the destruction of my family. What's worse, would be that I would have done it knowingly, and that is most dishonorable. I'm curious, with such strong sentiment, how do you justify the inherent risk of climbing at all? No offense intended, just chatting mate. DMT The same could be said for driving or anything else for that matter. Thing is, I've climbed for almost 2 years, and have hurt myself far less than I did playing soccer. Most of this was due to excellent instruction, and the protection of a good rope. Free soloing, not willing to take that risk. Kinda like driving without brakes. Yeah, I could do it on residential roads, but I don't get off on it.
.. i wonder how many people die free-soloing vs how many people doing roped climbing .. (granted per capita alot more will die free-soloing) ..
.. my point is that you can die in either sport, regardless of how excellent your instruction is or how good your rope is. -- you dont have to take my word on this, just look at the multiple threads on this forum about fatal accidents.. -- so if you think that causing your own death with destroy your family, then you are already taking that risk every time your rope up.
-- free soloing is nothing like driving without brakes .. you're 100% guaranteeed to have an accident if you drive without brakes -- you're not 100% guranteed to get hurt if you free solo.
.. better to just face it -- we're all going to die one day, might as well be doing something we love (free soloing or not!) .. -- face death and accept it.
-- ricardo
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herm
Oct 30, 2003, 3:15 AM
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I ONLY solo; in the winter it is bouldering, in the summer it is mile high ridges. I roped up about three times in as many years.
I am a Badd A$$- I can onsite to about 5.6 or 5.7, no matter what kind of rock, in almost any shoes [but I've bailed off of 5.4].....
Once upon a time I was a 5.12 trad climber, but I've become lazy......
I am 40 yrs old, I have two kids....
The closest call I've had in years was when I fell over a camp chair in my bedroom and impaled my chest on the aluminum pole- Now that was dangerous....
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mrme
Oct 30, 2003, 3:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If I solo 4th class I'm finally bucking the trend and going ropeless where others rope up. While not exactly the kind of soloing that gets printed on magazine covers, I thought this was relevant. At my local crag, there are several areas that require pulling very exposed moves in order to reach the base of routes or belay ledges. I personally felt confident doing them... but I made a point to climb slowly and concentrate on what I was doing. The problem with this is that it encourages others who may not be as confident to pull the same moves because they saw me do it. Monkey see - monkey do. Worse, I've seen stronger climbers in a traveling group impatiently push weaker climbers into doing dangerous things unroped even though the novices were obviously freaked by the situation. I've started trying to set a good example and rope up at these exposed spots. It doesn't do any harm, and it may do a lot of good.
at seneca wvpeople solo the summit block if you fall ya probably will die not many rope up or expect less experience people to rope up. kinda sad climbers forget others with less experince might not be comfortable with it
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dingus
Oct 30, 2003, 4:06 AM
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In reply to: I don't tell men not to start fights in bars or piss on the side of the highway. what good would it do? I just nod and smile, nod and smile...
Whoa! Letting guys be guys. You're cool.
DMT
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sean34
Oct 30, 2003, 4:58 AM
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I get fools asking WHY do u climb, WHY do u want to sell everything u own to vagabond, WHY to u want to hike the pct , etc.
My response is : If you have to ask, you prolly wouldnt understand anyway :(
I think the same applies here...
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squish
Oct 30, 2003, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: And woe to the person who is perceived as glorifying this forbidden activity, this taboo.
You would glorify it? Why? For whose benefit?
Sure, to some it's all about the glory. To others it just means climbing unroped.
I'm not against glory in dangerous climbing, but I would like to see the noobs make their own decisions. I always thought that's a big part of why it was called "soloing."
I'm also not disagreeing with the rest of your post at all, having been in many of your given situations, and having made the same rational decisions to solo. Sometimes it's definitely safer to go unroped, but to purposely make the decision to solo just based on the fact that the big boys are doing it, well that's just... Well, I don't know any of you so let me just say that it's your own decision.
If you have the experience and judgment to back it up, good for you. I totally respect that.
You see, I wouldn't want to talk anyone into it, but I don't feel it's my place to talk anyone out of it either. Simply, I wouldn't want to be sandbagging anyone whose experience and judgment I don't trust. I can't blindly trust the experience behind anonymous words posted on the www, and I won't trust the judgment of some noob who brags that soloing makes him feel drunk.
Dingus, this post probably sounds like I'm getting really defensive or something, but the above quote seems pointed at me from that other thread ("First Solo") so I'm responding to clear up my views. I guess I kind of feel that I left some unfinished business there.
Your point about the mothering instinct made me dig deep. You see, I never thought I could have one...
Now there's an intelligent way to call someone a PU$$Y!
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collegekid
Oct 30, 2003, 7:00 AM
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if you feel confident in your abilities at that level and know that you are capable of handling the mental aspects...go ahead.
You can slip on a staircase and break your neck....how is soloing a 5.5 any different? And if you can climb 5.13 with a rope, a 5.9 is going to feel like a staircase. Why even use a rope then?
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nagatana
Oct 30, 2003, 7:19 AM
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In reply to: .. my point is that you can die in either sport, regardless of how excellent your instruction is or how good your rope is. -- you dont have to take my word on this, just look at the multiple threads on this forum about fatal accidents.. -- so if you think that causing your own death with destroy your family, then you are already taking that risk every time your rope up. -- free soloing is nothing like driving without brakes .. you're 100% guaranteeed to have an accident if you drive without brakes -- you're not 100% guranteed to get hurt if you free solo.
It's about minimizing unncessary risks. The seatbelt analogy works best. And yes, climbing is an unnecessary risk from another perspective. :P
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ronamick
Oct 30, 2003, 7:20 AM
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If you climb enough, sooner or later you will end up free soloing- on the super easy stuff, if nothing else. How hard and high you go ropeless is up to you. The purest and most rewarding climbing experience is to climb without gear or rope.
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solo
Oct 30, 2003, 9:41 AM
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I solo because I am! :D (Well, not really, the nickname has nothing to do with soloing, not even climbing)
Actually I solo very little and nothing that could be considered "hard". Hard for me means, that I can not, or am not confident enough to downclimb it.
As to why. Over time some routes become too easy to be fun. You know, your local crag, a route you have climbed a hundred times, you do it just because you do not have the time to go anywhere else... If you try to solo it, its not the same anymore. You are not the same climber that can find each hold blindfolded. You are waaay more concentrated, you try to get the best grip on each hold, you carefully look for footholds, you strive for perfect balance and your moves are calculated to millimeters. You do not take chances. As a result I found that the climbing is more fluent, more estetic and more enjoyable.
Once in a while I solo just to remind me of that feeling so I can translate it to roped climbing and climb every time as if I was soloing.
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onelung
Oct 30, 2003, 9:49 AM
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In reply to: why do you solo?
Why not?
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mrme
Oct 30, 2003, 10:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: why do you solo? Why not?
and my favorite because it is there
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 1:59 PM
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[quote="rvega]
However I think when people discuss soloing they are talking about big 5 class climbs. In the recent issue of R&I they didn't mention any of the stuff you just did. The stories about Steph Davis on Snake Dike, Potter on Half Dome (forget the climbs name), and all the other stories were about doing serious rock climbing were a fall meant death and not about "hiking" or 4th classing it. This is what people are told is "soloing" and there in no wonder why people might question the rational for such a life decision.
Hmm.... The thing about Snake Dike is that it is so run out you're likely to die in a fall anyway. I was scared to lead it (I've climbed it before), even though it's incredibly easy. Might as well solo it...
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dingus
Oct 30, 2003, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: You would glorify it? Why? For whose benefit?
No, I would not. You misunderstood.
In reply to: but to purposely make the decision to solo just based on the fact that the big boys are doing it, well that's just... Well, I don't know any of you so let me just say that it's your own decision.
Here is one of those ugly truths of climbing... it is populated by men in the 15-25 age group. Almost everything these people do, they do because "the big boys are doing it too," from the music they listen to, to the clothes they buy. That is just a fact of growing up as a male human. We are going to test and compare our selves, and compete against other boys in the tribe. There is nothing you can say, no advice you can give, no law you can pass, that will stop us from testing ourselves against one another. You might as well rip out our DNA and start making some massive changes, cause anything less will be futile.
The Universal Mom question: "So, if all your friends are jumping in front of trains does that mean you will too?"
YES! Yes Mom! OK? If my budds are jumping in front of trains by gawd I'm gonna too! Don't make me explain. You don't like the answer anyway.
In reply to: Simply, I wouldn't want to be sandbagging anyone whose experience and judgment I don't trust. I can't blindly trust the experience behind anonymous words posted on the www, and I won't trust the judgment of some noob who brags that soloing makes him feel drunk.
It was a pretty nice troll.
In reply to: Dingus, this post probably sounds like I'm getting really defensive or something, but the above quote seems pointed at me from that other thread ("First Solo") so I'm responding to clear up my views. I guess I kind of feel that I left some unfinished business there.
It was not pointed at anyone. It seemed as though quite a few people expressed the taboo opinion recently, not just you. My thoughts are more broadly directed at the notion, not the person uttering it.
In reply to: Your point about the mothering instinct made me dig deep. You see, I never thought I could have one... Now there's an intelligent way to call someone a PU$$Y!
Now now, my wife is a mother. My MOTHER is a mother. Neither of them are pucies. Another example... my wife and I are driving down a suburban street. Some kid goes whizzing by on a gas powered skooter. He swerves around a car partially on the sidewalk, shoots out into the street directly in front of me, causing me to slow a bit, then he whips it back onto the sidewalk after he passed the car.
He looked 15. He never once acknowledged our presence. he acted like he didn't see us. He did see us and our eyes met a brief second before he did the cut. See, he knew I had him covered and I knew he knew. It's a guy thing, this sort of silent communication. Our ancestors developed this capability for hunting and combat. Man can communicate volumes this way. It's another reason why me and my primary climbing partners don't use verbal climbing signals much. ANYWAY...
My wife was outraged. She wondered where that boy's parents were. She wondered why he wasn't wearing protective gear. She actually suggested there should be a law (there is, though I didn't mention it). She thought it would be a terrible shame for that kid to get hurt or killed.
Me? I was annoyed when he shot out in front of me. I admired his skill on that thing though. He took a high G loop directly in front of the bumper of my moving car, swung back right and hopped the curb. Pretty cool move if you ask me. And then I promptly forgot all about him.
My wife still cites the incident as the prime example that all men are crazy.
I still think that kid made some cool moves on his scooter.
DMT
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climbhighmg
Oct 30, 2003, 5:18 PM
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I haven't soloed a lot of climbs, but a few and for me its the feeling, the rush i get knowing that its just me, the rock and thats it. my first time was a 5.6 i had climbed before. i liked the climb a lot and was climbing by myself that day... bouldering. i started climbing the climb and before i knew it, i was half way up, feeling completely comfortable and i just finished it. i agree with a few others in their response, i don't solo quite near my level of climbing. it also really helps you mental awarness when you are climbing. and its a great feeling that unless you have experienced it, is very hard to explain.
good luck
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dino
Oct 30, 2003, 5:30 PM
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Because you can.
For the pessimists out there; death isn't the only outcome of soloing...
Somebody said it right, "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand anyway."
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jipstyle
Oct 30, 2003, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: it's all good, just - don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about zen ok?
How about 'don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about love and Christ ok?'
Or 'don't give me that girly man pansy as* crap about submitting to Allah ok?
Would you say something so insulting to Christians? Or Jews? Or is it just eastern spirituality that you bash because you (obviously) don't understand it?
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 8:04 PM
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I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion.
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iltripp
Oct 30, 2003, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion.
Look here... First of all, I don't toss around the word "zen" like Feng Shui. Second, Zen is not a religion. It is a concept within a religion. Third, who the f*ck are you to decide whether I'm tossing around a word or if I really mean it. I am not Buddhist, but that does not limit me from using the word zen. It's not something that I took out of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainenance, but something I try very hard to make a part of my daily life, whether I'm climbing, working, studying, or just hanging out. I think that the word "zen" is the only word that could possibly describe the feeling that climbing gives me.
Why don't you stop insulting things that you don't have the slightest understanding of.
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hroldan
Oct 30, 2003, 8:49 PM
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This came to my mind (don't take it bad is kind of funny) what if you are free soloing and happen to find another solo climber on the same route slower than you??? and there's no other way around??
Get out of my way!!!, :evil:
- no, you wait!!! i was soloing first!!!
climb faster you !@#!!!!
- no, wait for your turn, i'm not finished!!!! i'm in the middle of a zen!!!
HEY!, let go!!!
- watch out, don't touch me!!!!!! no ahhhahhahahahha :twisted:
just kidding, don't take it bad! 8)
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dingus
Oct 30, 2003, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Third, who the f*ck are you to decide whether I'm tossing around a word or if I really mean it. I am not Buddhist, but that does not limit me from using the word zen.
Nor does it keep you firmly rooted to the world of logic. But we can't help that either. Your point is unreasonable.
In reply to: I think that the word "zen" is the only word that could possibly describe the feeling that climbing gives me. Why don't you stop insulting things that you don't have the slightest understanding of.
Why don't you lead through example?
DMT
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kimble
Oct 30, 2003, 9:18 PM
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I have solo'd for many different reasons. One notable one is that it's less expensive and healtheir than drugs.
live long and climb hard!
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cracklover
Oct 30, 2003, 10:05 PM
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I have never soloed (more than boulder problem height) for myself, but twice I have soloed on very easy (for me) fifth class terrain to help stuck climbers. Sad to say, I feel this suggests a flaw in my character. I'm not suggesting that I should be unwilling to put myself on the line for others, but rather that it's sad that I lack the wherewithal to take the same level of risk when the only thing on the the line is my own satisfaction. But hey, part of the game of climbing is about learning about oneself...
Dingus, several times I've done: One or two fifth class moves on mostly easier terrain; long exposed third class in stiff wind; short fourth class unroped. Perhaps it's just me, but when I'm about to undertake one of the above, it feels altogether different in kind, not just in degree, from the experience I get when looking up at a long fifth class climb and imagining what it would be like to be on it without a rope.
GO
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watersprite
Oct 30, 2003, 10:35 PM
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Dingus - I love you man
I practice meditation and have followed several Eastern regimes (yoga and meditation). My daughter is a practicing Zen Buddist. I would never insult a religion and if I have offended anyone with my comments, I sincerely apologize.
my only point is - yes, I know what you are talking about, it's called being "in the zone." fine, if you can control all the variables. but in this situation (free solo climbing) I don't believe you have control of the mountain. If you've got the huevos, go ahead on...
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rvega
Oct 30, 2003, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion. Look here... First of all, I don't toss around the word "zen" like Feng Shui. Second, Zen is not a religion. It is a concept within a religion. Third, who the f*ck are you to decide whether I'm tossing around a word or if I really mean it. I am not Buddhist, but that does not limit me from using the word zen. It's not something that I took out of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainenance, but something I try very hard to make a part of my daily life, whether I'm climbing, working, studying, or just hanging out. I think that the word "zen" is the only word that could possibly describe the feeling that climbing gives me. Why don't you stop insulting things that you don't have the slightest understanding of.
I think you are being bit sensitive if not melodramitic. Zen is used a common form of slang these days. From reading her posts I serioulsy doubt watersprite was meaning offense to someone's religion. Take it easy buddie. And from the stuff you said its pretty obvious you are not a Buddist. Telling someone to f* off like that is not what I think of when I think of the word zen that's for sure.
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bigfoot
Oct 31, 2003, 12:23 AM
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Thanks for the comments everyone. It helps me put a friends death in a different perspective. To those of you who said "if you have to ask you wouldnt understand," the reason I asked is because I dont understand, that is the point of asking questions- to clarify something which you previously did not know or understand. I was trying to get an idea of the mindset soloers have, and their reasons for risking their life. I dont like to rely on the rope, but i like that its there just in case. i know there are many ways to die climbing, but not one of you can tell me that roping up in general is just as safe as free soloing. If you fall on a rope you have a chance of being caught, if you fall without a rope, you hit the ground.
I know routes are never perfect, and people runout sections, solo easy stuff and so on, but at this point, I will not climb unless ancored in to something, call me what you will- I love life
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crag
Oct 31, 2003, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: why do you solo? Why not? and my favorite because it is there
If some noob decides she wants to be the next Dano more power to her hope she makes it. If she craters she died doing what she loved and what’s wrong with that? I’d say that we need to be more concerned about what we do as individuals and less what a small faction does.
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crag
Oct 31, 2003, 12:47 AM
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In reply to: Thanks for the comments everyone. It helps me put a friends death in a different perspective.
Sorry to read about your friend, may peace be with you and their family.
Best Wishes,
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telemarkist
Oct 31, 2003, 1:01 AM
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when I first started climbing it became very clear to me that the rope I tied into only made me as safe as my skill with pro, that and my belayers skill and attension to detail, I learned to fall and to trust the system that we all use to stay alive out there but along the way I kept finding these places that required mental skills as much as physical skills. sure because of when I learned, people like bachar where heros to me, to see him or derick climb, how could you not envy guys with skills like that? do I think I'm capable of that? not even in those days did I think I could get anywhere close, I'm a realist. after a few trips to tuolumne and full pitches of 5.6 or .7 with 1 bolt or none, it became clear that ropes were good for nothing but drag in some places, mental skills were the real key to staying out of trouble there. chasing bolts in those days was a whole different game and for the most part was not where people learned to climb. do I solo? yes, but only as a form of training in hopes that when I really need them I'll have the skills to climb another day
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mrme
Oct 31, 2003, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I didn't mean Zen Buddhism the religious discipline, but the slang "zen" as in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," the term "zen" being tossed around like Feng Shui and doesn't really mean Zen the religion. Look here... First of all, I don't toss around the word "zen" like Feng Shui. Second, Zen is not a religion. It is a concept within a religion. Third, who the f*ck are you to decide whether I'm tossing around a word or if I really mean it. I am not Buddhist, but that does not limit me from using the word zen. It's not something that I took out of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainenance, but something I try very hard to make a part of my daily life, whether I'm climbing, working, studying, or just hanging out. I think that the word "zen" is the only word that could possibly describe the feeling that climbing gives me. Why don't you stop insulting things that you don't have the slightest understanding of. I think you are being bit sensitive if not melodramitic. Zen is used a common form of slang these days. From reading her posts I serioulsy doubt watersprite was meaning offense to someone's religion. Take it easy buddie. And from the stuff you said its pretty obvious you are not a Buddist. Telling someone to f* off like that is not what I think of when I think of the word zen that's for sure.
right on i think they do have a problem. just start bashing every one elses religon because you have a problem with some one else belif even if it is that zen sucs so bad they use it as slang. get a clue lifes about relationships with yourself and the people around you instead of bashing someone tell them what you acomplish through zen other than your bad attitude. and even if they still think your belifs suc @ss its there right to chose that thought.
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hroldan
Nov 3, 2003, 9:06 PM
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wise words!!!! 8)
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passthepitonspete
Nov 8, 2003, 7:01 AM
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Because you never have to get up before noon if you don't feel like it, and you can drink all the beer....
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robmcc
Nov 8, 2003, 2:46 PM
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I'm going to go with this.
Because it's the most effective way to flush all the crap out of your brain that you can't otherwise get rid of.
I expect no one to really like that answer, but then I don't climb for you, do I? 8)
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rokshoxbkr19
Nov 8, 2003, 3:26 PM
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I always try to remeber these 2 things;
1. There are a lot of old climbers, and there a lot of bold climbers, but there aint a lot of old, bold climbers, lol.
2. Sometimes I trip going down the stairs.
That said, I have just started dabbling with free soloing and I love the rush and the focus it gives me.
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jv
Nov 8, 2003, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: my only point is - yes, I know what you are talking about, it's called being "in the zone." fine, if you can control all the variables. but in this situation (free solo climbing) I don't believe you have control of the mountain. If you've got the huevos, go ahead on...
Are you saying that being 'in the zone' implies controlling all the variables? Or that it's fine for 'you' (or anyone) if you can control all the variables? I agree that you can't control all the variables in free soloing. But neither can you control all the variables while roped up. It's a matter of degree.
One of the main reasons I climb is for the moments between stepping above my last pro, and clipping the next pro. That feeling is like dope, and I pursue it relentlessly. I occasionally free solo. I find that the percentage of those moments of being in the zone is much greater while soloing, even though I solo several grades below my limit. I speculate that this is because awareness of the risk of a fatal mistake focuses the mind and body completely on the points of contact with the rock, and the rock immediately around you.
I suspect this feeling is related to the euphoria that some soldiers experience during combat. At some point fear is transcended. The mind becomes intensely focused on simply doing what must be done to survive, or in climbing, to continue on to the relative safety of the top, the next ledge, the next good hold, the next bad hold, and so on. To get the same degree of satisfaction while leading on a rope, I have to increase the difficulty, or the potential length of the fall. Risk is a key element in producing the desired effect.
JV
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jv
Nov 8, 2003, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: my only point is - yes, I know what you are talking about, it's called being "in the zone." fine, if you can control all the variables. but in this situation (free solo climbing) I don't believe you have control of the mountain. If you've got the huevos, go ahead on...
Are you saying that being 'in the zone' implies controlling all the variables? Or that it's fine for 'you' (or anyone) if you can control all the variables? I agree that you can't control all the variables in free soloing. But neither can you control all the variable while roped up. It's a matter of degree.
One of the main reasons I climb is for the moments between stepping above my last pro, and clipping the next pro. That feeling is like dope, and I pursue it relentlessly. I occasionally free solo. I find that the percentage of those moments of being in the zone is much greater while soloing, even though I solo several grades below my limit. I speculate that this is because of the awareness of the risk of a fatal mistake focuses the mind and body completely on the points of contact with the rock, and the rock immediately around you.
I suspect this feeling is related to the euphoria that some soldiers experience during combat. At some point fear is transcended. The mind becomes intensely focused on simply doing what must be done to survive, or in climbing, to continue on to the relative safety of the top, the next ledge, the next good hold, the next bad hold, and so on. To get the same degree of satisfaction while leading on a rope, I have to increase the difficulty, or the potential length of the fall. Risk is a key element in producing the desired effect.
JV
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texhanson
Nov 8, 2003, 8:31 PM
Post #68 of 70
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Registered: Nov 6, 2003
Posts: 30
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Soloing is fun, but mad. I love it, but recomend you don't try anything close to what you climb on rope. For instance, if you are a solid 5.10 climber, don't solo anything above a 7. Ya dig? I hope otherwise you'll be digging yourself a grave. Personally, I think paddeling is more dangerous. Leave the rope at home, but play it safe- stay within your limits. Theres no turning back once you start...
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herm
Nov 9, 2003, 12:07 AM
Post #69 of 70
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Registered: Aug 26, 2003
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i trad climb to 5.12, pretty solid up to 5.11. boulder to V8. for the last few years i have only roped up about 3 times. i solo lots of routes in the mountains;
i find that i am consistently solid in all situations only to about 5.7.
i have been climbing 25+ yrs. I stay in shape.
treat all solos as singular events. don't assume that you are automatically good to go. it is ok to walk away......
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ronamick
Nov 9, 2003, 1:59 AM
Post #70 of 70
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Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
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You'll see it differently after you've been climbing longer, and if you keep at it. To me it is the finest climbing experience possible. With the rope and gear out of the way, you just climb.
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