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atg200


Nov 21, 2001, 8:44 AM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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Goodness. what are you smoking rocmonkey? There is absolutely no question that the clove hitch is the best knot for rope solo self-belay. I took a 35 footer onto a clove hitch self-belay on an aid route on Devils Tower-I can assure you it works just fine. Here's a tip though-a long thin Lost Arrow is excellent for prying apart the knot after a big fall.

I can't believe the amount of bad beta on this thread, and that it still keeps coming. Listen to Pete-he knows what he is talking about here.

andrew



samshafer


Nov 22, 2001, 5:29 AM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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Thanks for some new ideas on safer ways to unweight the rope while rope soloing. Personally I've been using the Silent Partner only for leading (would never again trust a Gri-gri for that, it was never intended for that purpose...though I have used in the past) and the Soloist for toproping. To contradict an earlier misstatement re: the Soloist; the directions for use specifically say that a chest harness is required to assure proper function in the event of an upside down fall. Also, you can lower yourself with the Silent Partner, though I don't like to; since it involves a clove hitch you get a bit of friction from that. See my post in "General" re; both devices. If you haven't used it, don't write about it.
I will probably try the long prussik trick as I've never been comfortable with tieing the periodic knot on even bomber gear. Of course, what everyone failed to mention is that while the total stretch of the rope increases with the length of rope behind you, we still trust it just as much to stretch when we're only 20' off the ground as we do at 100'.
I've always figured that if I fall 20' above where I last tied the rope to a bomber piece of pro which was followed by pro placed 5' below me with the rope running thru as usual, it is the same as if I fell 20' above the bottom, where my rope must be tied (to a tree, bolt or whatever) with a piece 5' below me. Obviously, a fall on a short length of rope will not be as "soft" a landing as a fall with 100' of rope to stretch, but if I trust my rope to safely stretch when only 20' above the bottom, I should trust it to safely stretch enough when only 20' from the last attachment to the wall (assuming that piece is bomber, & if not I still have the rest of the rope to stretch don't I). Also, as I recall, periodically tying the rope to the gear is one of the methods suggested by the manufacturer of the Silent Partner.
I also know that any bend in the rope theoretically weakens it at the point of the bend, but of necessity we put bends & knots in our ropes all day long & trust them to hold (yes, the butterfly is easier to untie after weighting). I mean look how much bending is going on at all anchors & where the rope is tied off to your waist! I see no problem with putting a simple knot above the pro periodically to "rebelay" the rope, though I haven't tried it that way. I've always just tied off to a piece every 30' or so with some simple knot.
I will try the prussik method anyway, as soon as I can buy a little cord. I expect to be back @ The Tower (Devil's) Friday, weather permitting, & will let ya'll know how it goes.
Remember--"even a bad day climbing is better than a good day doing anything else"


passthepitonspete


Nov 27, 2001, 1:46 PM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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Dude, you just blew in from the Continent with all this useful stuff. Thanks! I've never used a Silent Partner, but people seem to like them.

I like the Gri-gri, and it works for me, but as with ANY solo aid device, tie a freaking backup knot!!!!

The LONG prusiks will solve both the rope bend problem and the decreased fall factor problem.

It definitely works, and will eliminate rope abrasion while rope soloing if you do it correctly.

Cheers,

Dr. Piton

[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-12-13 22:43 ]


talons05


Nov 27, 2001, 2:12 PM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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Is anyone elses head spinning?

AW


mojorisin


Jan 16, 2003, 5:38 PM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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Remeber people,,,its the journey, not the destination.

,,P.S. The clove hitch is a handy knot,, but it will slip at 1,500 lbs.

[ This Message was edited by: mojorisin on 2003-01-16 17:55 ]


fitz


Jan 17, 2003, 10:32 AM
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Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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PTPP: You've got it down. Gri-Gri rules for aid. For free climbing, my feeling is clove hitch (with a biner in the middle like a handle), or just solo. I know others have had great luck with Silent Partner, Soloist, etc., but for me, messing with rope and backup knots, etc. already drags me down to moderate terrain. The so-called self feeding just doesn't give me enough of an edge to bother.

As for the lowly clove hitch, I think that the 1500 lb thing is a myth. I've seen that figure in a book somewhere, but the knot seems stronger in practice - provided it is properly tied and tensioned.

-jjf


lazide


Sep 14, 2003, 4:29 PM
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clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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Keep in mind that the clove hitch slipped (I have heard everything from 1000 to 1500lbs at various times) is a GOOD thing. It will absorb some (probably small, but everything helps) amount of shock in the event of a fall. 1000-1500lbs AT THE HARNESS is a MASSIVE amount of force - ~2200lbs at the harness is considered the point at where the human body will fail catastrophically (pelvis implodes if I remember correctly).

Assuming your clove hitch does slip at that point, once the force drops (which it will very shortly, unless you happen to be tied to a boulder that just pulled off the face), it will stop slipping.

And BTW Pete - wonderful beta. I have lately taken to doing hard, horribly traversing (and overhung) solo aid, and it definitly makes a huge difference. Not being able to see your lower anchor (and how much slack you have in your line), is VERY dangerous - especially if you have 150ft of rope out, and you are only 75ft above the deck. ;)


passthepitonspete


Sep 14, 2003, 5:51 PM
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Re: clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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If you wanna read something to make your hands sweat, read about my attempt to solo Native Son. Pay attention to what happened when I first attempted to clean the hugely traversing and overhanging fifth pitch!


Pliny


Dec 26, 2011, 4:39 PM
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Re: [passthepitonspete] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence.
In reply to:
Sly


acorneau


Dec 26, 2011, 5:37 PM
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Re: [Pliny] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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Pliny wrote:
Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence.
In reply to:
Sly


Dude, the thread is over 8 years old, what did you expect?!?


qwert


Dec 27, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Re: [acorneau] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
Pliny wrote:
Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence.
In reply to:
Sly


Dude, the thread is over 8 years old, what did you expect?!?
Well, i am not the guy you are asking, but i did expect cheesetits, and i was not disappointed.

qwert


Urban_Cowboy


Dec 27, 2011, 3:00 AM
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Re: [qwert] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Pliny wrote:
Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence.
In reply to:
Sly


Dude, the thread is over 8 years old, what did you expect?!?
Well, i am not the guy you are asking, but i did expect cheesetits, and i was not disappointed.

qwert
I'm disappointed I didn't know to put my text in a quote by someone else until now.


acorneau


Dec 27, 2011, 6:01 AM
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Re: [Urban_Cowboy] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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Urban_Cowboy wrote:
qwert wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Pliny wrote:
Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence. Sly

Dude, the thread is over 8 years old, what did you expect?!?
Well, i am not the guy you are asking, but i did expect cheesetits, and i was not disappointed.

qwert
I'm disappointed I didn't know to put my text in a quote by someone else until now.

Epic.

Tongue


hazcat


Dec 27, 2011, 9:35 AM
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Re: [pianomahnn] Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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pianomahnn wrote:
Okay, this guy was trying to convince me today that self belaying by using a clove hitch on a biner is safer, and more efficient than self belaying oneself with a grigri. What do you think? I personally wouldn't think about using the clove hitch if I had access to a grigri.

I like the clove a lot personally, though you should still have some redundancy in your setup one way or another.

No comment on the gri gri for lead self belay.

I have the silent partner but in my area find it mostly unusable. Climbs in my area are quite short and fall distance is increased with the silent partner, it takes a bit of speed to kick in the clutch. I found quite often it was my backup knot stopping me before the clutch could kick in 100%.

So if I'm going to have to spend that much time fussing with keeping small loops on backup knots it's simpler to just climb right off a clove.

I would use the SP if climbing something where I could get some air under me without pratically being at the end of the climb first.

Some stuff here you might find of interest

http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._among_many_675.html


(This post was edited by hazcat on Dec 27, 2011, 9:35 AM)


joeforte


Dec 27, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Re: [passthepitonspete] Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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[quote "passthepitonspete"]Oh my gosh, Compclimber, you're lucky I found this post before you ended up dead. (Next time post this sort of thing in the aid climbing section).

There is a very old and very famous story that you really should know about. Apologies to any historian in case I made a mistake, but I *believe* the story concerned Royal Robbins back in the 60's when he attempted to make the second ascent and first solo ascent of the West Face of the Leaning Tower, an A1 trade route nowadays, but back then, one of the world's hardest. He found out the hard way (it almost cost him his life) that when you take a lead fall on prusiks, they get melted by the rope to the point of failure! I believe this manner of rope soloing was known as the Bartlett method, and Royal proved beyond any reasonable doubt that this system was incredibly dangerous!

Oops. Stop presses.

I just blew the dust off of my copy of [b]Robbins' Advanced Rockcraft.[/b] Not only does he advocate the use of the [b]Barnett System[/b] (OK, I was at least close...) but he also talks about attaching himself to the rope while soloing using Jumars! Holy frig!

If you want to read about someone who [b]died[/b] this way, then [b]please click here.[/b]

It's a miracle Royal didn't die either (He really should have read my post before he made the first solo ascent of El Cap....sheesh)

OK, OK! Lemme start again.

Royal got away with using [b]really dangerous solo belay systems[/b] because he was a better climber than you, compclimber! Don't do like Royal or [b]you'll end up dead![/b]

Seriously, there was some dude who did take a fall using the Barnett System, obviously sometime after Advanced Rockcraft was published in 1973, [b]melted his prusiks,[/b] and nobody climbs that way anymore. So there.

Fiend - how in the HAIL did you get 102,560 Website Points (what on earth does that mean, by the way?) when you don't know that Pianomahnn is talking about a SELF belay, as in SOLO-ING, Hmmmmmm???? (Webmaster! Webmaster! I think you need to deduct 20,000 or so of Fiend's points for that one! LOL!

Kag - you actually "get it". Thank goodness.

Uh, OK Coach, you're safe with your last sentence. Might've had to deduct a couple points, but you seem to be catching on...

Brog, I've never used a Silent Partner but have seen it in use. It looks pretty good, but I prefer a gri-gri as I'll outline below.

Paulc - Gri-gris rock. See below.

MtD - I have your solution.

OK, guys, I'm not trying to be [b]too much[/b] of a smart-ass here, cuz I really love you all and just want you to stay alive.
That being said, I am amazed at how [b]little[/b] everyone seems to know about solo climbing - honestly, it just ain't that hard or tricky or confusing.

First of all, always,

[b]ALWAYS!!![/b]

[b]tie a backup knot[/b] no matter what device or system you use.

I've soloed using a [b]Solo Aid,[/b] but not since I converted to a [b]Gri-gri.[/b] And of course I am talking about aid climbing (Gri-gris are no good for free climbing unless you [b]modify[/b] them, and at any rate, I have [b]retired from free climbing[/b]...).

Yes Paul, there is a marginal chance that in a fall the [b]handle could catch[/b] and open the gri-gri, but that's what your backup knot is for, right? Besides, a little bit of [b]duct tape[/b] on the handle will solve the problem, eh?

Gri-gris are [b]superior[/b] to Solo Aids (Soloists do not hold upside down falls and are therefore no good in my book) and clove hitches because they are smoother and faster, and can self-feed at slow aid climbing speed. They are also superb for lowering yourself off for penjis, which you obviously can't do with the devices above.

(I don't know about the Silent Partner, but I don't think you can. I choose the Gri-gri over the Silent Partner for that reason alone, plus the Gri-gri is much cheaper, plus I already owned one for the gym [do NOT tell anyone I have EVER climbed in a gym!!!!])

There is another [b]excellent benefit[/b] of the Gri-gri, and that's [b]if you fall.[/b]

This is called

[b]The Body Hoist[/b]

You're dangling in space, and some unknown piece up there is holding you. Let's say you stick your jugs on and start jugging up, and [b]THAT[/b] piece fails. This means that now you're going to take a second lead fall, but this time you will be [b]falling on jugs![/b]

And because I - Pass the Pitons Pete - am not Royal Robbins, I know that my jugs will [b]cut[/b] the damn rope and I'll end up smushed at the base!

There is a [b]better way[/b] to get up after a solo lead fall. There is [b]ALWAYS[/b] a [b]better way.[/b]

I've fallen: I am hanging in space by my Gri-gri. I construct a [b]"body hoist"[/b] with a prusik knot, carabiner and pulley. I clip the prusik to the tight part of the rope above the Gri-gri, and pass the slack part of the rope below the Gri-gri through the pulley. I now have a Z-pulley system (It's like pronounced "zed", not "zee", eh?) which I can [b]winch myself up on using a 2:1 mechanical advantage.[/b]

The jug goes on the end [b]BELOW[/b] the Gri-Gri. So if the piece I'm jugging back up on blows and I take a second lead fall, I'm caught by the Gri-gri, not jugs. Much safer.

[That being said, in practice, I usually just use one jug and a footloop on the upper rope and dispense with the zed pulley. But at least if I fall, it's onto the Gri-gri.]



[b]Rebelaying Your Solo Lead Rope with Prusiks[/b]

Now, for MtDenali's concern. Yes, it's true - when you get high above your lower belay station anchor, the weight of the rope will [b]pull extra rope through your Gri-gri unbeknownst to you,[/b] thus putting [b]unwanted slack[/b] between you and your lower station, thus setting you up for a longer fall!

Yikes!

Solve that problem by carrying a [b]half dozen LONG prusiks[/b] (the loop is 24" long of 5mm cord - need about 5 or 6' of cord to make each prusik) and [b]rebelaying your lead rope[/b] every 30' or so up the pitch using the [b]prusik loop.[/b]


[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2002-12-13 22:36 ][/quote]


Good info Pete, but I'm wondering if there is a chance of the rebelay burning through the rope if you happen to fall on that piece. After all, it is the prussic that will catch your fall.


jakedatc


Dec 27, 2011, 1:55 PM
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Re: [joeforte] Clove hitch vs. grigri [In reply to]
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8 year bump.. nice.. i'm sure PM and PTPP would be glad to know their posts got bumped from under that much dust.


marc801


Dec 27, 2011, 4:48 PM
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Re: [Urban_Cowboy] clove hitch slipping (solo aid) [In reply to]
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Urban_Cowboy wrote:
qwert wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Pliny wrote:
Your link to your story did not work.
Anyway...I enjoyed the topic of Clove hitches. I'm planning on doing an easy route I have soloed w/o a rope and the idea of having a TR and moving up the rope with a clove hitch as a back up (because no one else will be in the remote area) just gives me that much more confidence.
In reply to:
Sly


Dude, the thread is over 8 years old, what did you expect?!?
Well, i am not the guy you are asking, but i did expect cheesetits, and i was not disappointed.

qwert
I'm disappointed I didn't know to put my text in a quote by someone else until now.
You still don't know what you're doing. And you still haven't realized you've responded to an 8 year old post.

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