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sbclimber
Feb 21, 2004, 3:22 AM
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I work at REI.
As many of you know, we have a very liberal return policy. 100% satisfaction gaurantee. If there are problems, we will gladly take it back.
At the same time, I don't like to see the store's policies being abused.
That being said, someone came in today to return a yellow alien (great piece of gear, right?). Anyways, the product had obviously been used because the teeth on the lobes were worn. Still, 100% satisfaction gaurantee.
So I ask...what was wrong with the product?
He says "It didn't fit."
I say, "It didn't fit what?"
"The types of cracks I like to climb. I tried to get it to fit (as evidence by the wear on the lobes), but it wouldn't fit."
I know our return policy, believe me, but I felt like he was totally abusing it. It's like he knew he was going to climb a crack where he needed that size, and he also knew he would never climb a crack like that again.
So use it for what is needed, then return it? I don't like this abuse of the policy. I know returning the item doesn't affect whether I will get paid or not, but I still fell that people shouldn't be taking advantage of the company like that.
So I mentioned that he would probably come across a crack that would fit it in the future, and he got all irate at the thought of me trying to get him to keep the alien.
Was I out of line saying this? He wanted me to go get my boss, but I was lucky because she was on lunch.
I ended up returning and giving a refund to a VERY mad customer. Do you all have any opinions?
Robbie
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dsafanda
Feb 21, 2004, 3:26 AM
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Good stuff. Very funny.
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malabarista
Feb 21, 2004, 3:30 AM
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In reply to: Do you all have any opinions?
Yeah, the guy was a jerk and you called him on it, good on ya.
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addiroids
Feb 21, 2004, 3:30 AM
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I would have shoved it up his pee-hole and bounce tested it. Does it fit now, you sport climbing communist?!?!
You could state that he was intentionally misusing the product for what it was designed for and he should try to find a crack that it would fit.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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crimsongrin
Feb 21, 2004, 3:37 AM
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That guy was obviously an A@# Hole and you should have told him to take a hike. He has no integrity and needs a lesson.
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smellyhippie
Feb 21, 2004, 3:40 AM
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Yeah, I totally see your point.
But, at the same time REI has become a very successful company, perhaps in part of the return policy. Although that guy is abusing it, he is only exercising the rights that REI gave him.
At any rate, the dude's a twerp, but if I was you I'd try not to have an emotional attachment to it. (Actually, if it was me I'd probably be just as pissed off and righteous, but it's easier to be preachy when your not involved.) It's kinda like when some guy cuts you off in traffic, you can either get worked up about it or forget it.
Can I have the alien?
Cheers,
Nate
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moabbeth
Feb 21, 2004, 3:40 AM
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My opinion is the guy is a serious RETARD!!!! My yellow Alien sees more use than 90% of the rest of the gear on my rack.
Didn't fit the cracks?? Was he talking about the kind you smoke? Yellow is one of the most commonly used pieces, it's size is ideal in so many situations. Joshua Tree, Red Rocks, Moab...that thing works on cracks everywhere.
I think the guy probably stole it off someone else's rack and was trying to get some cash out of you. Cause I cannot think of a single trad climber who would return a yellow Alien cause it "didn't fit" the cracks. Guarantee it was stolen. Cause his statement is ridiculous.
I would have told him to give it back to whoever he stole it from.
And when did REI start carrying Aliens? They don't carry them in my part of the world (or so I hear from friends who shop there, I only shop local mom & pop climbing shops).
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mesomorf
Feb 21, 2004, 3:44 AM
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If it's 100% satisfaction guaranteed, it doesn't matter what reason the customer had for wanting to return an item. You shouldn't even ask for a reason. Just smile and say Yes Sir.
Does REI know you're posting this here?
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moof
Feb 21, 2004, 4:09 AM
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REI, aka Rental Equipment Incorporated, and Return Every Item, among others
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baja_java
Feb 21, 2004, 4:16 AM
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amazing how much worse your ethics are, robbie, after losing $250 worth of someone else's gear
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coldclimb
Feb 21, 2004, 5:00 AM
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So what do they do with returned items?
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epic_ed
Feb 21, 2004, 5:12 AM
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Garage sale item.
This is one hilarious story. "Didn't fit"...damn, I really wish I had been the sale rep on that transaction. I could have gotten him to give me his entire rack and trade him out for some bomber 2x4s for the wide stuff. It's the only stuff you can really trust, you know...
Ed
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diesel___smoke
Feb 21, 2004, 5:15 AM
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That is REI's policy, and the guy was acting well within it's parameters, therefore I don't see how he could be portrayed as taking advantage of the company. If anything, REI hung themselves with too broad of a return/satisfaction policy.
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sbclimber
Feb 21, 2004, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: And when did REI start carrying Aliens? They don't carry them in my part of the world (or so I hear from friends who shop there, I only shop local mom & pop climbing shops).
REI has been carrying aliens since I started working there (maybe earlier?) which has been 3 months.
In reply to: If it's 100% satisfaction guaranteed, it doesn't matter what reason the customer had for wanting to return an item. You shouldn't even ask for a reason. Just smile and say Yes Sir. Does REI know you're posting this here?
And no, REI does not know I am posting this, nor do they need to, because I am in no way challenging their policy, just curious as to other people's opinions about my actions earlier today. I think there policy is a great one, indeed one that has helped the store become so succesful. (as someone already mentioned)
In reply to: So what do they do with returned items? In reply to: Garage sale item.
In reply to: That is REI's policy, and the guy was acting well within it's parameters, therefore I don't see how he could be portrayed as taking advantage of the company. If anything, REI hung themselves with too broad of a return/satisfaction policy.
I returned the item, I was never not going to return the item. Keep in mind that the ONLY thing I said was what I said in the original post, that being that he might come across a crack in the future that it would fit. This is what made him so mad, I said no further statements regarding his use of the cam. I could see he was still very unhappy, so it was obviously no problem returning the cam.
Remember, I HAVE to ask what the problem was, with anything, albeit rock climbing gear, a jacket, a backpack...ANYTHING.
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skiclimb
Feb 21, 2004, 5:56 AM
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That customer wasn't the least bit angry...he was playin ya...it's an ancient tactic...afterwards he was probably laughing his arse off telling his friends what a pushover REI is...
When I used to run into this tactic in sales i wouldn't budge a bit...I even threatened one guy with calling the cops and having him arrested for attempted theft...then they really did leave angry...and the sales force and management would usually laugh at them over beers in the back when we were closing..but I was luckily never working for REI.
There is a line a customer should never cross and that is being abusive to a polite helpful salesperson..
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sbclimber
Feb 21, 2004, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: When I used to run into this tactic in sales i wouldn't budge a bit...I even threatened one guy with calling the cops and having him arrested for attempted theft...then they really did leave angry...and the sales force and management would usually laugh at them over beers in the back when we were closing..but I was luckily never working for REI. There is a line a customer should never cross and that is being abusive to a polite helpful salesperson..
You have no idea how bad I want to do this sometimes, but it doesn't fly at REI. You are probably right though, about the customer thinking we are a total pushover...
It this policy that makes us such a great company though. It's totally unique, I don't know any other company that has a policy like that.
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dangermonkey
Feb 21, 2004, 6:19 AM
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The Yellow Alien is the KEY piece on everbody's rack,
That dude is crazy. I've named my yellow alien... swear. What a perfect piece for a perfect placement. What a tool. Props for working at REI. Long live the Empire.
Late,
CF
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deleted
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Feb 21, 2004, 1:51 PM
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who cares if some stupid company loses a little money because people can take advantage of their own stupid policies?
rei is just as corporate america as enron or any other large scale stupid business. so f rei and all the stupid pizza sauce bearded hippies with hand made wool hats who shop their for more capilene to wear on tour
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taalon
Feb 21, 2004, 2:26 PM
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Guess you never shopped at wall mart then lol... its not satisfaction garunteed there its the customer is always right ..... if Wal mart refuses to let you return something unless its like a open CD or something that is stated non-returnable on the package it opened. Then ask for a manager and complain alot you will get your money back and if you complain high enough at wall mart they will give you a gift card with 50 bucks on it now for your trouble.
I watched a guy complain about how long it took to put 2 new tires on his truck costing near 300 bucks. They even put him ahead of like 6 others cause they knew hed complain. He complained the manager gave him one tire free, and he was still not happy. He then complained to the reginal guy and got another 100 bucks to boot. So he almost got out of there with 2 free tires by the time it was done. That was just a customer abusing the policy so much i hated it. If i were a manager i would have never given him the tire cause i would have known that when we moved him in early and he was not happy that there was not gona be a way to make him happy at all. But hey that is just how i saw it.. i hate people that abuse things like that they make me so sick.
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baja_java
Feb 21, 2004, 3:11 PM
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what is with this mentality? just because a store has a generous return policy, then you're ENTITLED to max it out every which way? the government gives you unemployment checks too, and all you have to do is CLAIM you haven't found work. or if you do work, your company gives you disability pay too, if you CLAIM your back hurts like hell from whatever it is that you do, and put up a good act at the doctor's. by your logic, you all would be stupid not to do either too, right? do you people just get away with whatever you can within the "rules," or does a sense of right and wrong ever kick in? or does that always take a hiatus whenever convenient? pardon for asking, but where the hell did you people learn how to live?
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mesomorf
Feb 21, 2004, 3:30 PM
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baja_java,
I am not defending what the customer did. I myself wouldn't take advantage of the 100% satisfaction guaranteed policy in that way. That just ruins it for everyone.
All I'm saying is, if the store has that policy, they should honor it no questions asked. But the employees are supposed to ask, so they can enter something in the computer - probably for statistical purposes, to see just where they're losing out on this policy.
The customer has a right to answer anything he wants - wrong size, wrong color, I didn't like the noise it made on my rack.
He should be able to do this without suspicions or accusations on the part of the employee. If the employee doesn't like it, he should get a job with the mom & pop climbing shop.
Oh wait, they went out of business. Here in Reno they did, anyway.
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baja_java
Feb 21, 2004, 3:46 PM
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but the point is, it's not always just about doing whatever you're allowed. at some point, there's right and wrong, and there's no doubt it's outrageously wrong in this case
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baja_java
Feb 21, 2004, 3:56 PM
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and no, those shops wouldn't go out of business around me. at least not because of no buys from others like me. i'm proud to say that all my pro pieces so far have been bought from either Pacific Edge up at Santa Cruz or Nomad Ventures out at JTree, all except 3 pieces at REI on thu, which neither shop will have til "summer"
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thinksinpictures
Feb 21, 2004, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: It's totally unique, I don't know any other company that has a policy like that.
Guitar Center actually has a similar policy- it's a 30 days, no quetions asked deal, although they require that an item returned under the policy come back in the same condition it left the store in (fortunately, most of the stuff they sell doesn't show immediate signs of wear when used, like cams and other lcimbing gear).
I'll also admit that I have taken advantage of their return policy. My band "rented" a couple consdensor microphones for a recording that would not have otherwise been able to afford. We did, however, treat those microphones as if they were family heirlooms, and, since we returned them in basically new condition, GC was able to re-sell them. To this day I feel bad about taking advantage of them, but listening to the band's demo makes me feel just a little bit less bad about it :oops:
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smellyhippie
Feb 21, 2004, 5:04 PM
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Costco has that policy.
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angry
Feb 22, 2004, 2:09 AM
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SBC, I'm not going to talk policy, that's the way these things go.
What I am more interested in is the exact location of this storage facility full of once used climbing gear, the floorplan, and what type of security they have. Would a climber who recently read about how to be a ninja be able to "booty" quintuple racks in an evening?
PM me with scematics, I'll watch Oceans 11 once more to get the plan straight.
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mreardon
Feb 23, 2004, 1:16 AM
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I have my pants off, and yes, the yellow alien fits in that crack just fine thank you.
I now have my climbing partner's pants off, yup, yellow alien fits just fine in that crack as well.
Grabbed the pooch. Yup, fit just fine.
Gonn'a check on the wife later, but last I checked she was hanging from the rafters by an orange alien :shock:
Then one summer, at band camp, the entire flute squad - yellow alien fit.
Gerbil needed a black alien.
Moral of the story - there's always room for Jell-O and the occasional yellow alien :D
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sbclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 2:28 AM
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In reply to: SBC, I'm not going to talk policy, that's the way these things go. What I am more interested in is the exact location of this storage facility full of once used climbing gear, the floorplan, and what type of security they have. Would a climber who recently read about how to be a ninja be able to "booty" quintuple racks in an evening? PM me with scematics, I'll watch Oceans 11 once more to get the plan straight.
we're in for a 50/50 split right?
In reply to: I have my pants off, and yes, the yellow alien fits in that crack just fine thank you. I now have my climbing partner's pants off, yup, yellow alien fits just fine in that crack as well. Grabbed the pooch. Yup, fit just fine. Gonn'a check on the wife later, but last I checked she was hanging from the rafters by an orange alien Then one summer, at band camp, the entire flute squad - yellow alien fit. Gerbil needed a black alien. Moral of the story - there's always room for Jell-O and the occasional yellow alien
Thanks for a laugh. And the first-hand experience.
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baja_java
Feb 23, 2004, 2:32 AM
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watch Reservoir Dogs too, in case your heist goes awry, guys
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moeman
Feb 23, 2004, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: I have my pants off, and yes, the yellow alien fits in that crack just fine thank you. I now have my climbing partner's pants off, yup, yellow alien fits just fine in that crack as well. Grabbed the pooch. Yup, fit just fine. Gonn'a check on the wife later, but last I checked she was hanging from the rafters by an orange alien :shock: Then one summer, at band camp, the entire flute squad - yellow alien fit. Gerbil needed a black alien. Moral of the story - there's always room for Jell-O and the occasional yellow alien :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Funniest thing I've seen in a while
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sbclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 2:39 AM
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In reply to: watch Reservoir Dogs too, in case your heist goes awry, guys
hopefully it doesn't come to that...but yeah, we might need that insight. Who says you cant learn anything from the TV?
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angry
Feb 23, 2004, 4:40 AM
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Are you in, we'll split the booty.
I need info, like should I bring a grappling hook? If I do, how do I get it down, what if I poop myself?
I've got calculations to make, the cost of a trip to the warehouse (did you say washington?) from colorado, and the cost of the gear. From previous posts I'm afraid that a lot of these cams, though still functional, might smell like poo. This could be a problem. What happens if I get pulled over, and a drug dog trained to sniff stolen climbing gear and mreardons ass funk catches a whiff. Busted!!
I know, we'll put the gear in balloons and swallow it, we'll "recover" it later. Hope there's not too many returns on #5 Camalots or Big Bro's.
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hosh
Feb 23, 2004, 5:04 AM
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Um, the only Alien I've ever used was the yellow one. It was a friends and I was borrowing his aliens to "test" them out. I had a cam the exact same size but used his just to see what Aliens were like. It was nice. Maybe this guy had buyers remorse? And "It doesn't fit" is perhaps the stupidest excuse for returning pro ever. If he was using it on OW's, of course it didn't fit, dork. I hope he's like 30 feet ran out on the sharp end one day looking at a crack and fumbling through the gear he didn't return, thinking "Wish I had a yellow alien right now, all the rest of this stuff doesn't fit..." What a dork.
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bukel
Feb 27, 2004, 5:55 AM
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We are surrounded by jerks. Wherever you look there is an army of them. You can´t fight them, they are too many. Just try to ignore them. Even sometimes it is complelty useful.
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sharpie
Mar 1, 2004, 3:51 AM
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I totally agree with mesomorf, it is REI policy and because of that it should be honored in any situation. Yes, unfortunately some people will take advantage of it.
Obviously companies like REI and Nordstrom’s see this as the cost of doing business. If you return an item for 1,000 unhappy customers you've possibly earned 1,000 loyal customers and created profitable long-term relationships with them, and the cost of returning the 1,000 items plus the say 5-10 individuals who are abusing the system are far outweighed by the profits the happy customer will bring the company. Unlike other large retailers who have stringent return policies, places where people like skiclimb work, and don't give a damn about creating relationships with customers but simply about moving product out the door.
I'm a self-admitted gear junky and although I also patronize my local Mom-n-Pops, I hit REI regularly and am expecting a healthy dividend any day. That said I probably return, on average 4-6 items a year to REI. If you assume my average annual purchases amount to around $2,000, and my average annual returns amount to around $200. That leaves about $1,800 in adjusted retail sales, and with and average retail profit of 50% that means my relationship with REI has a gross value of $900 annually.
That $2,000 are discretional funds that I have decided to, and will, spend on climbing (and some other recreational) gear. REI has the opportunity to earn that money by providing me with the best value for my money, and that goes beyond giving me a product. It includes, among other things, customer service, knowledgeable staff, inventory & availability, competitive prices and customer friendly store policies. If I ever ran into a store employee who treated me like skiclimb claims he/she treated their customers they would lose my business and the profit that came with it permanently.
This is my very simple take on retail policies, but the bottom line is these businesses are in business to make a profit and this is obviously a policy that they feel advances them to that end. And, say what you will about the logoization of America, but I believe it's the companies like REI, Wal-Mart, Nordstroms, and all of the others that have made them the successes they are, and it the shortsighted paranoia of getting ripped or take advantage of that creates an adversarial customer relationship in other stores which often fail.
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philbox
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Mar 1, 2004, 4:46 AM
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philbox moved this thread from General to Gear Heads.
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tanner
Aug 16, 2004, 6:57 PM
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I work for Coast Mountain Sports and if anyone tryed to return used climbing gear especially pro we would flat out tell them no and explain why.
It would be just like tying to return protection purchased from a drugstore because it didn't fit the crack
The answer and should always be no
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cfnubbler
Aug 16, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: If it's 100% satisfaction guaranteed, it doesn't matter what reason the customer had for wanting to return an item.
This guy wasn't returning the Alien because he wasn't "satisfied" with it. Satisfaction had nothing to do with it. He was playing the system and exploiting a policy put in place to ensure excellent customer service to those with legitimate issues. He was being a complete ass, and customer satisfaction is not relevant to the discussion.
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jklinke
Aug 16, 2004, 7:36 PM
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And I thought climbing hardware in general was excluded from the return policy.
jk
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dingus
Aug 16, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Bet you can tell the dirtbags and poor people from the yuppies and trustfunders.
Never let morals, ethics or integrity stand in the way of getting one over on Walmart.
Or REI.
Or any other corporation. If there is an Inc. after the name, let the shareholders pick up the tab for the liberal return policy. That is pretty much the extent of their social contribution... what you are able to extract from them.
Cry me a river.
DMT
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punk
Aug 16, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: That customer wasn't the least bit angry...he was playin ya...it's an ancient tactic...afterwards he was probably laughing his arse off telling his friends what a pushover REI is... When I used to run into this tactic in sales i wouldn't budge a bit...I even threatened one guy with calling the cops and having him arrested for attempted theft...then they really did leave angry...and the sales force and management would usually laugh at them over beers in the back when we were closing..but I was luckily never working for REI. There is a line a customer should never cross and that is being abusive to a polite helpful salesperson..
Good for you and if I saw you as your store manager I would had fired your As$ on the spot and refund the guy completely
Know that for every satisfied costumer there are 5 that aren’t
For every PR that satisfy costumer dose there is 3 potential buyers for any bad PR there is 8 costumers leaving
So in short if you would like to stay in business you will treat your clients with silk gloves and bent over backwards to satisfy them…..what, you don’t think that it is obvious that someone taking advantage on the system and when the conman says “Ohh- what a pushover REI is I just did so and so…” it is the GREATEST positive PR for the company. You see he just convinced his other conman friends to come back to REI and buy more stuff where usually they can send the damage goods back to the manufacture and keep their profit…u see no one sells you goods at cost
I was a retail store manager for 10 years in NYC and I have seen them all and I would do anything within my power to keep and grow my client base
BTW how many time I heard REI sales person saying to a costumer “try it and if it is not working for you return it and we will be happy to give you your money back”
Do you have ANY idea of how strong of a statement is that and how confident the buyer is giving his credit card at the cashier and continuing shopping there?
Edited for spelling
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sarcat
Aug 16, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Nice resurrected topic.
dingus: What do you extract from McDonald's whey you buy thier $1 double cheese burgers?
I agree that the piece was stolen. Are receipts not required to return anything?
I have a pair of BD Sabretooths that are years old and rusty. Can I return them and say "I'm not satisfied"? I don't even remember where I got them.
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jenfu
Aug 16, 2004, 8:27 PM
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I got a pair of 5.10 Mocasyms at REI for 20 bucks because someone had returned them. They were brand new except for a little scuff on the rubber. The reason for the return written on the tag was that they were "uncomfortable." When did climbing shoes, especially slippers become comfortable? Yeah for me, bad for the company.
Anyway, this guy, in my opinion, lacks integrity. It's a great return policy but abuse it and see how long it lasts.
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punk
Aug 16, 2004, 8:27 PM
Post #44 of 63
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In reply to: I have a pair of BD Sabretooths that are years old and rusty. Can I return them and say "I'm not satisfied"? I don't even remember where I got them.
at REI you probably can…and I salute them for it.
their buying power is so huge that they can afford this.
but it seems from your statement that you are a decent man and consciously can you live with that…after all we are what our action is. you only know what you are and what makes you a better man.
:roll:
spelling again :roll:
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jeffm
Aug 16, 2004, 8:41 PM
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I agree with everything that has been said (for the most part). I'm glad that REI and others have return policies because I have had to use them. I'd say this guy and probably others will take it too far. My advice would be to have told this guy to "bend over" and you'll show him a crack you could fit it in! :)
-BOB MARLEY ROCKS!
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sarcat
Aug 16, 2004, 8:44 PM
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I was being ...um.... facetious. The ability to make up our own mind is one of the last true freedoms we have. Integrity and honesty with those choices make you decent or deficient. Like you said punk.
I love my Sabretooths and plan on getting a new set when the new BD design is up for sale in a few weeks/months. I saw them at the Outdoor Retailers show in SLC yesterday. Spankin' !!
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robmcc
Aug 16, 2004, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: Was I out of line saying this? He wanted me to go get my boss, but I was lucky because she was on lunch.
You were WAY out of line. You're what, a salesperson for a giant chain? Not even management? You have no business putting your own ethics over corporate policy. 100% satisfaction guaranteed. You don' t have to approve REI's policy or interpret it. You just implement it.
Peter Drucker wrote a bit on Sears policy in its early days. They had a similar no-questions-asked policy. IIRC, he thinks it played a big part in Sears growth and profitability. REI doesn't have this policy because they're stupid. They have this policy because it is profitable. The vast majority of people aren't jackasses who "abuse" the policy. I'm also a whole lot more likely to take home Shiny New Thing if I know I can bring it back if it doesn't work like I want it to.
FWIW, I've spent $thousands in REI.
Total returns so far? $0.00
Still, it's nice to know that if I *do* have a problem, the solution is only a return away.
Rob
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dingus
Aug 16, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #48 of 63
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In reply to: Nice resurrected topic.
You're so smart, AND experienced. A veritable Citizen of the Net. Seen everything. Done everything.
In reply to: dingus: What do you extract from McDonald's whey you buy thier $1 double cheese burgers?
In reply to: I agree that the piece was stolen.
In reply to: I have a pair of BD Sabretooths that are years old and rusty. Can I return them and say "I'm not satisfied"? I don't even remember where I got them.
DMT
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cedk
Aug 16, 2004, 10:15 PM
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Lucky thing that REI doesn't sell toilet paper.
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punk
Aug 16, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: Lucky thing that REI doesn't sell toilet paper.
Those considered under Consumable/perishable products, and yes you ca return unused and spoil products like that at Safeway :roll:
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phil_phree
Aug 17, 2004, 2:05 PM
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I too worked at REI for the summer and I saw my fair share or morons.
But you need to look at it this way.
The climbing department is such a small part of day to day sales numbers that the return of 1 cam a day won't significantly affect day to day profits.
At my store, as I'm sure is true at most REI, the sock department outsells the climbing department.
As long as the company is profitable enough to keep funding my paycheck and offering me great prodeals, I am more than happy to put up with moron customers.
On the plus side, while we don't ever resell safety equipment. That GPS unit that "Just didn't fit in my hand correctly" makes a fine scratch and dent item for another "member"
While everyone loves to rag on REI for being walmart. It truly is a one stop shopping experience for most outdoor sports.
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punk
Aug 17, 2004, 3:36 PM
Post #54 of 63
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In reply to: While everyone loves to rag on REI for being walmart. It truly is a one stop shopping experience for most outdoor sports.
On the contrary,
I love REI and I always feel secure buying my gear there. in general I prefer doing my shopping there .{unless I see screaming deal elsewhere and the product have warranty that is Iron clad (i.e. Patagonia, BD) that you don’t really need the store if something happen}. this is the American way and I love it …try it in France…they will “fart in your general direction” in the matter effect, all Europe and Canada just plain old sucks when it comes to dealing with a costumer and guaranteeing their product. {ever had costumer complaint to lets say Petzl…the American office is tolerable (nothing close to say, bd CS…) thank god that their product is in general in superb quality ..but they have some lemons too… now dealing with thier foreign offices is a nightmare} the American consumer is so fvckin spoiled that he bite the hand that feeds him I wish the rest of the world will follow U.S. in the way we treat our costumers
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scrapedape
Aug 17, 2004, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: who cares if some stupid company loses a little money because people can take advantage of their own stupid policies? rei is just as corporate america as enron or any other large scale stupid business. so f rei and all the stupid pizza sauce bearded hippies with hand made wool hats who shop their for more capilene to wear on tour
In reply to: This is my very simple take on retail policies, but the bottom line is these businesses are in business to make a profit and this is obviously a policy that they feel advances them to that end. And, say what you will about the logoization of America, but I believe it's the companies like REI, Wal-Mart, Nordstroms, and all of the others that have made them the successes they are, and it the shortsighted paranoia of getting ripped or take advantage of that creates an adversarial customer relationship in other stores which often fail.
In reply to: Never let morals, ethics or integrity stand in the way of getting one over on Walmart. Or REI. Or any other corporation. If there is an Inc. after the name, let the shareholders pick up the tab for the liberal return policy. That is pretty much the extent of their social contribution... what you are able to extract from them. Cry me a river. DMT
Oh dear. :roll: Ok, here's the difference: REI is a co-operative. They aren't publicly traded and the shareholders are their members. What does that mean? For one, it means they aren't really in business to make a profit. Profits are retained to enable expansion and to ensure future financial health. It also means that if you want the "shareholders" to absorb the cost, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're a member, you're a shareholder. Shareholders absorbing the cost = prices going up or member credits going down. Get it?
I did this with a radar detector for a road trip once - the difference was, I brought it back in the same condition I bought it in. They can turn around and sell it for full price.
I agree with what you guys are saying. They have a policy, and they should stick to it. And they did in this case. It doens't appear that there are enough people doing this to put REI in financial peril. There are always going to be jerks. I'm happy to let them be jerks if it gives me peace of mind in my purchasing. But I ain't gonna climb with them. :nono:
In reply to: I work for Coast Mountain Sports and if anyone tryed to return used climbing gear especially pro we would flat out tell them no and explain why. It would be just like tying to return protection purchased from a drugstore because it didn't fit the crack The answer and should always be no
Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes. I don't think there's anything wrong with them having a policy like this, so long as it's applied evenly. Another reason to go to MEC.
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dingus
Aug 17, 2004, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: Oh dear. :roll: Ok, here's the difference: REI is a co-operative.
Oh dear, is it? Can I be just like you if I ever grow up? Never mind, if I start using 'oh dears' the end will be very near.
In reply to: They aren't publicly traded and the shareholders are their members.
Oh dear, that is SOME difference!
In reply to: What does that mean? For one, it means they aren't really in business to make a profit. Profits are retained to enable expansion and to ensure future financial health.
Now I should be rolling MY eyes. They aren't in business to make a profit eh? But they plow those profits they aren't supposed to take back into the business? Hmmm, sounds fantastically different from the rest of corp America. Co-ops as they relate to Costco and REI are a freakin JOKE. A tax joke.
In reply to: It also means that if you want the "shareholders" to absorb the cost, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're a member, you're a shareholder. Shareholders absorbing the cost = prices going up or member credits going down. Get it?
I have been a member of REI since 1982. Get it? In all that time my 'benefits' for being a member amount to a 10% discount over a marked up retail price no other outdoor retailer sells for anyway. And they get to keep that 10% for up to a year, using the interest no doubt to plow more of their not-for-profit profits back into the business. Wouldn't it be much cheaper to just mark everything down 10%? Of course, but not everyone uses those dividend checks. Do you know what FSI's are? They are the coupons you see in the Sunday paper, free standing inserts. Manufacturers love them because only 1% of them are redeemed. They get to market 'discounts' that 99% of the shoppers don't bother to use. That is a marketing deal made in heaven. Same is true for that Fool's Dividend Check... that is almost always spent at REI anyway, with the highly coincidental sale that runs concurrent with the mailing of the check. Apples to apples... said benefits are an illusion.
In reply to: Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes.
DMT
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sustainedclimber
Aug 17, 2004, 5:02 PM
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I also work for a large outdoor sports chain, and have seen many illegitimate returns. As is policy I ask why, and then take the item and give people back their money. I know that I'm low man on the totem pole and that what I do should be dictated by the guys upstairs, but it is not possible to sit around and not get a little pissed at people who return items for ridiculous reasons. Though I have yet to have something from the climbing department returned, I've seen my fair share of 15 year old sleeping bags being returned because they "didn't keep me warm anymore." I know that our policy is 100% Satisfaction Guarunteed, but sometimes people can really drive me up the wall.
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scrapedape
Aug 17, 2004, 5:42 PM
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Dear oh dear oh dear!
In reply to: I have been a member of REI since 1982. Get it? In all that time my 'benefits' for being a member amount to a 10% discount over a marked up retail price no other outdoor retailer sells for anyway. And they get to keep that 10% for up to a year, using the interest no doubt to plow more of their not-for-profit profits back into the business. Wouldn't it be much cheaper to just mark everything down 10%? Of course, but not everyone uses those dividend checks. Do you know what FSI's are? They are the coupons you see in the Sunday paper, free standing inserts. Manufacturers love them because only 1% of them are redeemed. They get to market 'discounts' that 99% of the shoppers don't bother to use. That is a marketing deal made in heaven. Same is true for that Fool's Dividend Check... that is almost always spent at REI anyway, with the highly coincidental sale that runs concurrent with the mailing of the check. Apples to apples... said benefits are an illusion.
Dingus, check out their balance sheet. Where are the profits going, exactly? What is the driving force for them to make money? Who's making money?
84% of member credits were claimed in '03, 79% in '02. Seems pretty solid if you ask me.
If their prices are so high, why do you shop there? My experience is that they have some of the best prices going, and I'm NOT a member.
In reply to: In reply to: Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes. Learn the answer to that and you will learn why co-ops aren't really co-ops and the REI's of the world are in business to make money, period. DMT
I'm not clear what you're trying to say here. Do enlighten me.
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joneiche
Aug 17, 2004, 7:04 PM
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In reply to: Bet you can tell the dirtbags and poor people from the yuppies and trustfunders. Never let morals, ethics or integrity stand in the way of getting one over on Walmart. Or REI. Or any other corporation. If there is an Inc. after the name, let the shareholders pick up the tab for the liberal return policy. That is pretty much the extent of their social contribution... what you are able to extract from them. Cry me a river. DMT
So let me list some of the companies that you just named....
Black Diamond Equipment Inc.
Patagonia Inc.
Marmot Mountain Ltd. (a subsidiary of K2 Inc.)
Trango USA Ltd. (owned by Great Trango Holdings Inc.)
Five Ten (aka Stone Age Equipment Inc.)
Metolius Mountain Products Inc.
Omega Pacific Inc.
Not to mention countless other companies not only employing other climbers, but the vast majority of people in the U.S. Just because a business has an "Inc." after does not mean that they are some giant corporate entity.
Additionally, I would hope that you no longer make purchases from such incorporated companies which make no social contributions.... (all the money that came from evil corporate america to purchase the land at the base of Castleton to ensure your access).
More importantly, as anyone with a basic understanding of economics can tell you, business creates externalities or spillovers (both positive and negative). One of these externalities that incorporated American businesses create is jobs! How many of us poor meager dirt bags can pay for beer let alone give someone a job (thank goodness for yuppies and trust funders) and pay for part of their 401k so that they may buy into incorporated American businesses through stock purchases just so you can, in return, stiff their shareholders, who you just happen to look at in the mirror every morning!
Cudos to those who can deny the fact that it is all connected. I guess that ignorance is bliss!
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dingus
Aug 17, 2004, 11:39 PM
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In reply to: Additionally, I would hope that you no longer make purchases from such incorporated companies which make no social contributions....
Oh dear, now why would I do THAT? I prefer to exploit corporations in the same fashion they exploit me - control expenses, increase revenue and maximize profits. Returning shit I don't need is one way to do that.
In reply to: More importantly, as anyone with a basic understanding of economics can tell you, business creates externalities or spillovers (both positive and negative). One of these externalities that incorporated American businesses create is jobs!
Oh dear, I thought the government created jobs. Now you're saying BUSINESSES create JOBS? DAMN! Guess I should have paid more attention in business classe. Jobs you say??? DAMN!
In reply to: How many of us poor meager dirt bags can pay for beer let alone give someone a job (thank goodness for yuppies and trust funders) and pay for part of their 401k so that they may buy into incorporated American businesses through stock purchases just so you can, in return, stiff their shareholders, who you just happen to look at in the mirror every morning!
In reply to: Cudos to those who can deny the fact that it is all connected. I guess that ignorance is bliss!
I encourage others to exploit corporations, cause that is what they do to us. Exploit. They will use any legal loophole (and plenty of illegal ones, like Enron) to drive down their operating costs, maximize profits and increase market share. They hire god fearin MBA's, like you maybe, to find new and exciting ways to skirt the letter if not the spirit of ethics, integrity and social responsibility. Bean counters with the fell swoop of a cheap pen can eliminate 10 people and 125 years of service with 2 weeks severence, a hand shake and a security escort to the door. "Just doing my job man."
Now you tell me how all those laid off HP workers should 'thank goodness' that Fiona screwed them out of a job so she could buy Compaq and make big coup?
How many times have you been downsized?
DMT
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scrapedape
Aug 18, 2004, 3:31 AM
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dingus,
Good points in the last post. I have no illusions about the role of corporations in our world - perhaps "a necessary evil" would be the best way to sum up my feelings on them. A great deal of benefits, a lot of problems too.
But I was hoping you could explain your views on consumer co-ops in greater detail. I'm not trying to be a pr!ck here - I just fail to understand where the profits are going if not, ultimately, back to the members. In that sense, is there not a substantial difference between co-ops and outfits like, for instance, Walmart?
Incidentally, "Oh dear" is my line, not joneiche's, but you're welcome to use it :P
Cheers
Don
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dingus
Aug 18, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: But I was hoping you could explain your views on consumer co-ops in greater detail.
I meant to but I couldn't assemble a cogent thought on the subject.
I have worked with a number of retail consumer co-ops and would be inclined to agree they are more as you describe the quientessential co-op. The Sacramento Organic Food Co-op is an excellent example of a co-op that intimately involves its members and is in business to serve their needs.
But when a co-op grows to dominate a business space, as REI has done, and their membership is just a frequent shopper program, and the voting becomes a sham because none of us knows these people anyway, when REI exerts pressure on its suppliers in Walmart fashion and said suppliers feel compelled, or even threatened, to fill REI orders in preference to everyone else, when local gear shops go under due in part to the Walmart style marketing practices of REI... then the co-op part of their business becomes meaningless.
They hire MBA's who practice the same cut-throat tactis they would in a 'for profit' business, including the establishment of profitable margins to begin with. Plowing those profits back into infrastructure is all well and good, but as a member of REI I stand to gain nothing except a reliable gear source. And they are not 'cheaper' as a result of this 10% discount, at least not to me.
I have come to view monolithic businesses and industries with great cynicism. In a corp culture there is very little personal responsibility associated with decisions of wide and far impact. If the people making these decisions had to live with the personal liability that say a private business owner has to incur, then perhaps coprorations could achieve the lofty social ideals the other poster suggested. As it is, survival of the fittest means only the nasty and cuttthroat will survive. A single retail store called 'Walmart' is not in my best interest. Neither is a single climbing store called REI. Their very success makes them suspect.
DMT
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baja_java
Dec 13, 2004, 2:09 AM
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i'm adding to this because of an incident involving the original poster sbclimber which shows all too well how hypocritical these momentary soapbox stances are
i actually climbed with this Robbie Mize guy (sbclimber) and his friend Deric at JTree on 11/20/04. the climbing was good, and i even let his beginner friend use my harness and gear so the two of them can hit a climb together. unfortunately, on that climb on Cyclops, they left 3 of my cams on top, and by the time Robbie went back to look, they were gone. immediately afterward, the words out of Robbie's mouth were how stupid a mistake it was to leave gear behind, what a cardinal sin it was to lose someone's gear, and how he'd of course replace the cams he'd lost. that was weeks ago, and no, Robbie still hasn't paid for the cams he'd lost. he doesn't even respond to inquiries as to when and if he still plans to pay for the gear he'd lost
two hundred fifty dollars is not the end of the world for me, but apparently it is for him. that was all it took for a decryer of bad ethics to degenerate into a full blown practitioner himself, and in this case, of even worse ethics. sad and pathetic off the scale. if you end up working at REI again, Robbie, don't ever criticize how unethical it is for some customer to return a yellow alien after using it for a specific climb. you don't know the first thing about right and wrong
now get your act together and pay up! 12/12/04
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update 12/12/04: prompt response by robbie with apologies and promise to pay at first, then no payment again with threat of not paying
update 12/16/04: promise again to pay after informed of impending legal action
update 12/23/04: payment in full
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