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phil_phree
Aug 17, 2004, 2:05 PM
Post #53 of 63
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I too worked at REI for the summer and I saw my fair share or morons.
But you need to look at it this way.
The climbing department is such a small part of day to day sales numbers that the return of 1 cam a day won't significantly affect day to day profits.
At my store, as I'm sure is true at most REI, the sock department outsells the climbing department.
As long as the company is profitable enough to keep funding my paycheck and offering me great prodeals, I am more than happy to put up with moron customers.
On the plus side, while we don't ever resell safety equipment. That GPS unit that "Just didn't fit in my hand correctly" makes a fine scratch and dent item for another "member"
While everyone loves to rag on REI for being walmart. It truly is a one stop shopping experience for most outdoor sports.
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punk
Aug 17, 2004, 3:36 PM
Post #54 of 63
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In reply to: While everyone loves to rag on REI for being walmart. It truly is a one stop shopping experience for most outdoor sports.
On the contrary,
I love REI and I always feel secure buying my gear there. in general I prefer doing my shopping there .{unless I see screaming deal elsewhere and the product have warranty that is Iron clad (i.e. Patagonia, BD) that you don’t really need the store if something happen}. this is the American way and I love it …try it in France…they will “fart in your general direction” in the matter effect, all Europe and Canada just plain old sucks when it comes to dealing with a costumer and guaranteeing their product. {ever had costumer complaint to lets say Petzl…the American office is tolerable (nothing close to say, bd CS…) thank god that their product is in general in superb quality ..but they have some lemons too… now dealing with thier foreign offices is a nightmare} the American consumer is so fvckin spoiled that he bite the hand that feeds him I wish the rest of the world will follow U.S. in the way we treat our costumers
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scrapedape
Aug 17, 2004, 4:49 PM
Post #55 of 63
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In reply to: who cares if some stupid company loses a little money because people can take advantage of their own stupid policies? rei is just as corporate america as enron or any other large scale stupid business. so f rei and all the stupid pizza sauce bearded hippies with hand made wool hats who shop their for more capilene to wear on tour
In reply to: This is my very simple take on retail policies, but the bottom line is these businesses are in business to make a profit and this is obviously a policy that they feel advances them to that end. And, say what you will about the logoization of America, but I believe it's the companies like REI, Wal-Mart, Nordstroms, and all of the others that have made them the successes they are, and it the shortsighted paranoia of getting ripped or take advantage of that creates an adversarial customer relationship in other stores which often fail.
In reply to: Never let morals, ethics or integrity stand in the way of getting one over on Walmart. Or REI. Or any other corporation. If there is an Inc. after the name, let the shareholders pick up the tab for the liberal return policy. That is pretty much the extent of their social contribution... what you are able to extract from them. Cry me a river. DMT
Oh dear. :roll: Ok, here's the difference: REI is a co-operative. They aren't publicly traded and the shareholders are their members. What does that mean? For one, it means they aren't really in business to make a profit. Profits are retained to enable expansion and to ensure future financial health. It also means that if you want the "shareholders" to absorb the cost, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're a member, you're a shareholder. Shareholders absorbing the cost = prices going up or member credits going down. Get it?
I did this with a radar detector for a road trip once - the difference was, I brought it back in the same condition I bought it in. They can turn around and sell it for full price.
I agree with what you guys are saying. They have a policy, and they should stick to it. And they did in this case. It doens't appear that there are enough people doing this to put REI in financial peril. There are always going to be jerks. I'm happy to let them be jerks if it gives me peace of mind in my purchasing. But I ain't gonna climb with them. :nono:
In reply to: I work for Coast Mountain Sports and if anyone tryed to return used climbing gear especially pro we would flat out tell them no and explain why. It would be just like tying to return protection purchased from a drugstore because it didn't fit the crack The answer and should always be no
Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes. I don't think there's anything wrong with them having a policy like this, so long as it's applied evenly. Another reason to go to MEC.
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dingus
Aug 17, 2004, 4:59 PM
Post #56 of 63
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In reply to: Oh dear. :roll: Ok, here's the difference: REI is a co-operative.
Oh dear, is it? Can I be just like you if I ever grow up? Never mind, if I start using 'oh dears' the end will be very near.
In reply to: They aren't publicly traded and the shareholders are their members.
Oh dear, that is SOME difference!
In reply to: What does that mean? For one, it means they aren't really in business to make a profit. Profits are retained to enable expansion and to ensure future financial health.
Now I should be rolling MY eyes. They aren't in business to make a profit eh? But they plow those profits they aren't supposed to take back into the business? Hmmm, sounds fantastically different from the rest of corp America. Co-ops as they relate to Costco and REI are a freakin JOKE. A tax joke.
In reply to: It also means that if you want the "shareholders" to absorb the cost, you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're a member, you're a shareholder. Shareholders absorbing the cost = prices going up or member credits going down. Get it?
I have been a member of REI since 1982. Get it? In all that time my 'benefits' for being a member amount to a 10% discount over a marked up retail price no other outdoor retailer sells for anyway. And they get to keep that 10% for up to a year, using the interest no doubt to plow more of their not-for-profit profits back into the business. Wouldn't it be much cheaper to just mark everything down 10%? Of course, but not everyone uses those dividend checks. Do you know what FSI's are? They are the coupons you see in the Sunday paper, free standing inserts. Manufacturers love them because only 1% of them are redeemed. They get to market 'discounts' that 99% of the shoppers don't bother to use. That is a marketing deal made in heaven. Same is true for that Fool's Dividend Check... that is almost always spent at REI anyway, with the highly coincidental sale that runs concurrent with the mailing of the check. Apples to apples... said benefits are an illusion.
In reply to: Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes.
DMT
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sustainedclimber
Aug 17, 2004, 5:02 PM
Post #57 of 63
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I also work for a large outdoor sports chain, and have seen many illegitimate returns. As is policy I ask why, and then take the item and give people back their money. I know that I'm low man on the totem pole and that what I do should be dictated by the guys upstairs, but it is not possible to sit around and not get a little pissed at people who return items for ridiculous reasons. Though I have yet to have something from the climbing department returned, I've seen my fair share of 15 year old sleeping bags being returned because they "didn't keep me warm anymore." I know that our policy is 100% Satisfaction Guarunteed, but sometimes people can really drive me up the wall.
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scrapedape
Aug 17, 2004, 5:42 PM
Post #58 of 63
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Dear oh dear oh dear!
In reply to: I have been a member of REI since 1982. Get it? In all that time my 'benefits' for being a member amount to a 10% discount over a marked up retail price no other outdoor retailer sells for anyway. And they get to keep that 10% for up to a year, using the interest no doubt to plow more of their not-for-profit profits back into the business. Wouldn't it be much cheaper to just mark everything down 10%? Of course, but not everyone uses those dividend checks. Do you know what FSI's are? They are the coupons you see in the Sunday paper, free standing inserts. Manufacturers love them because only 1% of them are redeemed. They get to market 'discounts' that 99% of the shoppers don't bother to use. That is a marketing deal made in heaven. Same is true for that Fool's Dividend Check... that is almost always spent at REI anyway, with the highly coincidental sale that runs concurrent with the mailing of the check. Apples to apples... said benefits are an illusion.
Dingus, check out their balance sheet. Where are the profits going, exactly? What is the driving force for them to make money? Who's making money?
84% of member credits were claimed in '03, 79% in '02. Seems pretty solid if you ask me.
If their prices are so high, why do you shop there? My experience is that they have some of the best prices going, and I'm NOT a member.
In reply to: In reply to: Coast Mountain is a for-profit endeavour. That's why their prices are so much higher than MEC. Frankly I wonder how they stay in business sometimes. Learn the answer to that and you will learn why co-ops aren't really co-ops and the REI's of the world are in business to make money, period. DMT
I'm not clear what you're trying to say here. Do enlighten me.
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joneiche
Aug 17, 2004, 7:04 PM
Post #59 of 63
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
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In reply to: Bet you can tell the dirtbags and poor people from the yuppies and trustfunders. Never let morals, ethics or integrity stand in the way of getting one over on Walmart. Or REI. Or any other corporation. If there is an Inc. after the name, let the shareholders pick up the tab for the liberal return policy. That is pretty much the extent of their social contribution... what you are able to extract from them. Cry me a river. DMT
So let me list some of the companies that you just named....
Black Diamond Equipment Inc.
Patagonia Inc.
Marmot Mountain Ltd. (a subsidiary of K2 Inc.)
Trango USA Ltd. (owned by Great Trango Holdings Inc.)
Five Ten (aka Stone Age Equipment Inc.)
Metolius Mountain Products Inc.
Omega Pacific Inc.
Not to mention countless other companies not only employing other climbers, but the vast majority of people in the U.S. Just because a business has an "Inc." after does not mean that they are some giant corporate entity.
Additionally, I would hope that you no longer make purchases from such incorporated companies which make no social contributions.... (all the money that came from evil corporate america to purchase the land at the base of Castleton to ensure your access).
More importantly, as anyone with a basic understanding of economics can tell you, business creates externalities or spillovers (both positive and negative). One of these externalities that incorporated American businesses create is jobs! How many of us poor meager dirt bags can pay for beer let alone give someone a job (thank goodness for yuppies and trust funders) and pay for part of their 401k so that they may buy into incorporated American businesses through stock purchases just so you can, in return, stiff their shareholders, who you just happen to look at in the mirror every morning!
Cudos to those who can deny the fact that it is all connected. I guess that ignorance is bliss!
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dingus
Aug 17, 2004, 11:39 PM
Post #60 of 63
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In reply to: Additionally, I would hope that you no longer make purchases from such incorporated companies which make no social contributions....
Oh dear, now why would I do THAT? I prefer to exploit corporations in the same fashion they exploit me - control expenses, increase revenue and maximize profits. Returning shit I don't need is one way to do that.
In reply to: More importantly, as anyone with a basic understanding of economics can tell you, business creates externalities or spillovers (both positive and negative). One of these externalities that incorporated American businesses create is jobs!
Oh dear, I thought the government created jobs. Now you're saying BUSINESSES create JOBS? DAMN! Guess I should have paid more attention in business classe. Jobs you say??? DAMN!
In reply to: How many of us poor meager dirt bags can pay for beer let alone give someone a job (thank goodness for yuppies and trust funders) and pay for part of their 401k so that they may buy into incorporated American businesses through stock purchases just so you can, in return, stiff their shareholders, who you just happen to look at in the mirror every morning!
In reply to: Cudos to those who can deny the fact that it is all connected. I guess that ignorance is bliss!
I encourage others to exploit corporations, cause that is what they do to us. Exploit. They will use any legal loophole (and plenty of illegal ones, like Enron) to drive down their operating costs, maximize profits and increase market share. They hire god fearin MBA's, like you maybe, to find new and exciting ways to skirt the letter if not the spirit of ethics, integrity and social responsibility. Bean counters with the fell swoop of a cheap pen can eliminate 10 people and 125 years of service with 2 weeks severence, a hand shake and a security escort to the door. "Just doing my job man."
Now you tell me how all those laid off HP workers should 'thank goodness' that Fiona screwed them out of a job so she could buy Compaq and make big coup?
How many times have you been downsized?
DMT
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scrapedape
Aug 18, 2004, 3:31 AM
Post #61 of 63
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dingus,
Good points in the last post. I have no illusions about the role of corporations in our world - perhaps "a necessary evil" would be the best way to sum up my feelings on them. A great deal of benefits, a lot of problems too.
But I was hoping you could explain your views on consumer co-ops in greater detail. I'm not trying to be a pr!ck here - I just fail to understand where the profits are going if not, ultimately, back to the members. In that sense, is there not a substantial difference between co-ops and outfits like, for instance, Walmart?
Incidentally, "Oh dear" is my line, not joneiche's, but you're welcome to use it :P
Cheers
Don
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dingus
Aug 18, 2004, 3:54 PM
Post #62 of 63
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In reply to: But I was hoping you could explain your views on consumer co-ops in greater detail.
I meant to but I couldn't assemble a cogent thought on the subject.
I have worked with a number of retail consumer co-ops and would be inclined to agree they are more as you describe the quientessential co-op. The Sacramento Organic Food Co-op is an excellent example of a co-op that intimately involves its members and is in business to serve their needs.
But when a co-op grows to dominate a business space, as REI has done, and their membership is just a frequent shopper program, and the voting becomes a sham because none of us knows these people anyway, when REI exerts pressure on its suppliers in Walmart fashion and said suppliers feel compelled, or even threatened, to fill REI orders in preference to everyone else, when local gear shops go under due in part to the Walmart style marketing practices of REI... then the co-op part of their business becomes meaningless.
They hire MBA's who practice the same cut-throat tactis they would in a 'for profit' business, including the establishment of profitable margins to begin with. Plowing those profits back into infrastructure is all well and good, but as a member of REI I stand to gain nothing except a reliable gear source. And they are not 'cheaper' as a result of this 10% discount, at least not to me.
I have come to view monolithic businesses and industries with great cynicism. In a corp culture there is very little personal responsibility associated with decisions of wide and far impact. If the people making these decisions had to live with the personal liability that say a private business owner has to incur, then perhaps coprorations could achieve the lofty social ideals the other poster suggested. As it is, survival of the fittest means only the nasty and cuttthroat will survive. A single retail store called 'Walmart' is not in my best interest. Neither is a single climbing store called REI. Their very success makes them suspect.
DMT
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baja_java
Dec 13, 2004, 2:09 AM
Post #63 of 63
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i'm adding to this because of an incident involving the original poster sbclimber which shows all too well how hypocritical these momentary soapbox stances are
i actually climbed with this Robbie Mize guy (sbclimber) and his friend Deric at JTree on 11/20/04. the climbing was good, and i even let his beginner friend use my harness and gear so the two of them can hit a climb together. unfortunately, on that climb on Cyclops, they left 3 of my cams on top, and by the time Robbie went back to look, they were gone. immediately afterward, the words out of Robbie's mouth were how stupid a mistake it was to leave gear behind, what a cardinal sin it was to lose someone's gear, and how he'd of course replace the cams he'd lost. that was weeks ago, and no, Robbie still hasn't paid for the cams he'd lost. he doesn't even respond to inquiries as to when and if he still plans to pay for the gear he'd lost
two hundred fifty dollars is not the end of the world for me, but apparently it is for him. that was all it took for a decryer of bad ethics to degenerate into a full blown practitioner himself, and in this case, of even worse ethics. sad and pathetic off the scale. if you end up working at REI again, Robbie, don't ever criticize how unethical it is for some customer to return a yellow alien after using it for a specific climb. you don't know the first thing about right and wrong
now get your act together and pay up! 12/12/04
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update 12/12/04: prompt response by robbie with apologies and promise to pay at first, then no payment again with threat of not paying
update 12/16/04: promise again to pay after informed of impending legal action
update 12/23/04: payment in full
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