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zozo
Feb 26, 2004, 12:36 PM
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No idea where to post this, mods move it as you see fit.
Does anyone out there have any experience shooting proffesional level climbing? Id be very interested to hear how you handled things like rigging, techniques, do you use a small steady cam, nat sound, additional lighting that sort of stuff. I plan on using an XL1with a standard boom, is there a better choice?
Thanks all!
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zozo
Feb 26, 2004, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: Does anyone out there have any experience shooting proffesional level climbing?
Sorry, I mean shooting professional level video of climbers.
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dr_caligari
Feb 26, 2004, 1:59 PM
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Hey Zozo,
I might be able to help you out. I'm a cinematographer(35mm) but started with DV. There's a lot of tight things you can do with a DVcam that you can't do with 35mm. One of the coolest things is that fact that, if it is sunny enough, you dont really need to rely on artificial lighting. most DV cameras have great lowlighting and the XL1 is one of them. If you get the chance to check out other cameras I go look at the brand new Panasonic AG-DVX100. This camera has the capability of shooting progressive rather than interlaced, in laymans terms it technically shoots better resolution, progressive is what the PAL cameras shoot, and we all love PAL. Anyway it also can be shot in a 24P mode, which shots 24 frames per second, rather than video's 30 frames. This gives it more of a cinema look. I've also noticed it crushes the greens that make video kinda ugly. Anyway hope this helps man, if you have any more questions PM me. I love to talk cinema!!
PS you can never go wrong with a glidecam/steadicam unit.
-Matt
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fitzontherocks
Feb 26, 2004, 2:25 PM
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We shot some climbing for use in tourism TV spots back in the summer. We used a Sony 24p cam mounted on about a 30' jib arm. The jib allowed us to get super-close to the climber, and then tilt up and pan out over the valley and show the scenery surrounding the crag. We actually hired a bunch of local football players to lug the jib and its accompanying counterweights up the approach to the crag. (The assembled rig weighs about half a ton.) Shot all natural light, with maybe some bounce from shiny boards. Shot MOS, since the spots are voice over-ed. Our talent was Chad, the route setter at Horseshoe Canyon Ranch. Luckily, he's an animal, because he had to run up a burly 5.12 over and over and over again while we got the moves worked out. He climbed for a good 3 hours while we did take after take. If you want more info, PM me and I can put you in touch with the DP.
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zozo
Feb 27, 2004, 2:43 AM
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I want to get some really bizarre angle shots. Stuff you dont see on the normal climbing video, I was thinking of rigging cameras to the rock and using lipsticks and stuff like that.
Thanks for your input I will be pm'ing you both to pick your brains some more.
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 27, 2004, 3:40 AM
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Instead of a new thread i thot i would ask on this one.
The camera i have is by no means pro, but i would like to make as best a video as i can its a Sony Handycam with nightshot High 8. Anyways what i would like to ask is this.
Best way to use it for good shots maybe some basic low cost equipment you can advise for helping with shots ect. Also good editing software to buy taht is itermediate to expert yet simple to learn. I would like some basic info on how to move my videos to dvd, so the software is the main thing, and how to use my camera effectivly till i can buy a newer better camera in the 1000 range. Also when i look for a new camera is the DVI cams worth it?
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tyify
Feb 27, 2004, 4:52 AM
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Not sure on the cost of these cameras but they are in the $1000 range: Optura and Elura...Nice cameras. For intermediate software I'd suggest Pinnacle with DVD output capability's...The DV cameras are very nice. ON the expert side of video editing I'd go with preimere pro ($700). If you plan on doing anything semi-pro or profesional I'd suggest you upgrade that camera to a GL2...Depends on how into it you are...I've spent about $5000 thus far starting my video production buisness and still have mucho amounts of stuff to buy...
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 27, 2004, 7:28 AM
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Thanks for your input i was expecting it to cost alot but i was hoping to produce some ok stuff with a small investment was why i asked. Dang sounds like im gona have to look into it for the long haul lol.. What about Adobe Premiere pro C, i am not sure what that is i noticed it listed at hastings for like 40 bucks while i was cheking on the pro for yah 100+ i figured price lol.
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zozo
Feb 27, 2004, 12:32 PM
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If your going to spend close to a grand pn editing software I would spend a little more and go straight into an AVID DV, AVID Xpress. Iv'e seen the software got for around 1,200 dollars and its by far a better and more stable editing system then adobe( wich I do like however for desktop editing). Then if you decide to go more high end you are already familiar with the interface. I have had terrible experiences with everything Pinnacle has made, be ready for your sysytems to lock up every half hour.
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zozo
Feb 27, 2004, 12:49 PM
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In reply to: This camera has the capability of shooting progressive rather than interlaced, in laymans terms it technically shoots better resolution, progressive is what the PAL cameras shoot, and we all love PAL. -Matt
PAL and Progressive scan are not the same thing thought correct? Progressive is still NTSC?
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aarong
Feb 27, 2004, 1:59 PM
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Finally - a decent post about video production.
I've been using Adobe Premiere for a while and it works great but I am ready to get rid of my windows system. I'm going with an Apple G5 system and Final Cut Pro 4 along with DV Studio Pro. It's by no means the cheapest - but for the price - it will be very professional and stable. Sure - there's lots of editing systems out there and they all seem to be getting better and better but Apple's got a great reputation for stability and quality video production software and systems.
Camera wise I like the Sony DSR-PD150P (3-CCD Mini DVCAM) and the Sony DSR-PDX10 - they are smaller than the XL-1 so easier to handle and lighter when mounted to a boom. The quality is outstanding and for climbing shoots it's easier to handle these cameras (especially if you are hanging from a rope) over the XL-1. Ok - the XL-1 looks way cooler and it does have more options on interchangable lens. If you haven't yet - check out bhphotovideo.com they have tons of equipment.
Even with the cheapest of the miniDV cams out there you can still shoot an ok video (picture). I think one of the biggest problems with the consumer level cams is the sound quality. Pro level cameras have much better sound quality.
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zozo
Feb 27, 2004, 2:12 PM
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Ive never used Final Cut but some friends who are pros swear by it - have even gone from AVID to Final Cut. I have about 10,000 dollars worth of windows software so I wont be switching unless they come out with a windows version.
I will look into that camera you suggested, but I can get an xl1 for free. Im kinda thinking of starting a production company that would hook up with guide services, have had some interest from some river runners. Trying to make numbers work and stuff like that.
I might like to see a forum for this, I looked at the photography forum but they wont take any new members? :evil: What the hell is that all about?
aarong - just checked out your site - nice!!
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aarong
Feb 27, 2004, 3:13 PM
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That's cool - can't go wrong with anything that's free - especially an XL-1.
I'm lucky too - here at work they are sending me to training at the Edit Center in NYC for Final Cut Pro editing. Can't wait. Also, should be getting my new system soon.
Thanks for the compliment on my site - still have some work to do but it's moving along. I love film/video nearly as much as climbing so I'm headed in the direction of combining them.
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dr_caligari
Feb 27, 2004, 4:24 PM
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No PAL and progressive are different. NTSC is the standard the USA uses. Which can be progressive, but if shot in DV is mostly Interlaced. Progressive is the standard for PAL but can also get interlaced. it gets complicated in this area.
-Matt
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 27, 2004, 10:05 PM
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ZOZO if your in any way unsure about that Camera your gona get free...
LET ME KNOW ILL PAY SHIPPING ON IT, you can give it to me lol... I have no problem with it being free lol.... im to dam poor right now to even look at that cam.
Thanks all for the posts nice to have some good input for once.
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zozo
Feb 28, 2004, 1:36 AM
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I get to USE it for free. Man dont I wish I could get ahold of a free XL1. If I get my hands on some free cameras I will definetly share the wealth! :D
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 28, 2004, 1:41 AM
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LOL cool man well im gona play around with my handycam to see if i can pull off some good footage ya never know what may happen but it will be a while before i get it made digital.
I am still looking around and desiding on my way to get it on my pc, thinking i will end up using a pinacle setup since its in a good price range and i hear unless you got a bomber system that a video input card is not the way to do right now. And being a tech i have researched them alot.
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sharpender
Feb 28, 2004, 1:59 AM
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zozo:
I have to agree with vertical rockrat. Pinnacle is not worth the money, at least on the low end where you would be getting in. I bought one of there cards with edit software and the quality of transfer was poor, had problems with dropped frames and the edit software was total junk. I have worked on Premiere and for where you are at it would be an excellent program. You might want to look at Sony's Vegas Video - formerly Sonic Foundry. You can get the Adobe - industry standard editing, for about a grand or even less if you are a student. Actually way less. If you are going to be strictly in the DV format and that fits you (student) I would go for it. Check out videoguys.com. They will provide you reviews and prices all kinds of systems. Look for the Specialty Video Supply website if you are a student.
Pal is not progressive. It is the European video format. It runs at 25 frames a second rather than the 30 frame NTSC American format. Both are interlace. It is technical video specs. You should get some books and read up if you are going to do this. Your xl1 should be NTSC 30 frame, which means interlace miniDV. Make sure, cause if they give you a pal camera the footage won't work with your edit software. Lastly, if you are going to record sound in the field, see if you can get a mixer that takes XLR mics and get a good microphone (shotgun is best) or determine if your xl1 is set up for XLR. Good luck. One last thing. Plan what your going to shoot before you go shoot it. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time and energy to get very little good stuff.
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zozo
Feb 28, 2004, 3:00 AM
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Yeah Pinnacle sucks, please dont spend money on that stuff. I guess their MPEG2 encoder is ok, just started using it for some DVD projects. We were trying to cut a 1/2 hour documentary with Pinnacle running Adobe Premiere and it was dropping frames, the title tool would crash the system, the whole thing just sucked, we started all over with an an AVID Xpress and had no problems at all.
Client wasnt to thrilled :twisted:
Im going to pm a moderator of the photography forum to see if maybe we could start a videography / editing /post production thread there or something.
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 29, 2004, 10:45 PM
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Cool thanks for all the posts but since i hear pinacle sucks then what about the hardware they make for pumping the video in via usb or firewire. The converter since right now im gona be using my sony handycam? is it ok to use or what, i have heard mixed remarks on video cards vs stand alone hardware most say stand alone is better but having no experiance with either i am taking all advice i can.
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vertical-rockrat
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Feb 29, 2004, 10:54 PM
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oh and btw wonder if it would be worth someone starting a poll about adding a Videography forum to the site where tehy got the photo one at?! that would be nice to start one for all this info we are dishing out lol make it start with sections like Equipment, Hardware, Software, ect lol...
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philbox
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Mar 1, 2004, 4:38 AM
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philbox moved this thread from General to Climbing Photography.
Edit to say that I moved this thread to this forum in consultation with the original poster. Great thread too I might add.
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 1, 2004, 7:43 AM
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problem problem big ass problem...
i dont have access to that forum so now the remarks to the thread are unseen by me.
how to remedy this i do not know however its up to the rest what they want to do from here.
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zozo
Mar 1, 2004, 12:58 PM
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This thread now lives in the Climbing Photography forum, not the critique forum that is locked but the open one. It seemed logical because the two are related and both communities can help one another out.
I guess the idea is to keep this as an ongoing thread like the MASS climbers thread, for all questions related to videography, editing, post production, business issues ect. ect.
I used to shoot for news but since then I have lived in the editng and post world and Im looking forward to picking the brains of some talented out door videographers and in that vein.....
Whats the best way to shoot snow without blowing out and sillouetting? I know there are filters, but will those do the job on a very bright day?
Maybe if there is enough traffic we could get our own forum.
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todddarling
Mar 2, 2004, 5:51 AM
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I work in video editing and use Avid Adrenalines and DS at work but at home I have MACs So I use Final Cut pro. The best thing about final cut is the lower cost (from avid) and the Live type options make animated lower thirds and titles really easy and cool. I use it for lower budget productions (kinda feel like I'm cheating) I use After effects for the higher budget stuff. I have a GL-1 for my personal camera and I think I'm going to be shooting some climbing at a local spot this summer.
I've really enjoyed readiing this Thread!
Just thought I'd put in my two cents.
Todd
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 2, 2004, 11:05 AM
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Philbox - sorry man i was looking at the critque forum when i posted last. And i replyed to this right after you marked it and it was still in General. Anyways can i ask for some Experts information now?????
Break down a Camera (Video) for me Digital mainly. Tell me what each thing i should look at is and in what order they are important for quality. IE a digital still you go by Megapixel, then Optical Zoom, in my opinion. I have seen some information here and there but don't exactly understand it like i think one term was PAL i have no idea what it is compared to other things mentioned. Can someone provide a clean upfront post on the diffrent things we need to look for. Also as i look thru some cameras in mags i do not see mega pixel on the digital ones, so what do i look for then? Yes im a NOOB who wants to get all the knowledge i can on this.
Also for a PC user with a mediocre system (1 gig duron, 128 mb ATI pro9000 video, and upgrading to at least 512 ram) what options do i have for taking my now analog video and putting it on my pc? As in best piece to look at. And for future use should i look at a Firewire input, or a USB2 input on a new camera? Or will sticking with older stuff work? Im new help me out and i bet it will help others to. And if you have sights with good info on shooting, production, how to's, prices for equipment ect, pllease drop me a PM unless the mods dont mind them posted here for all?!
Thanks and sorry to ask for so much i hope i made it sound ok so you can offer the assistance i need.
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zozo
Mar 2, 2004, 12:58 PM
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In reply to: The best thing about final cut is the lower cost (from avid) and the Live type options make animated lower thirds and titles really easy and cool. I use it for lower budget productions (kinda feel like I'm cheating) I use After effects for the higher budget stuff.
I hear the color correction tools and the compositing you can do inside Final Cut are making some After Effects users switch over. Ive never used Final Cut but I have a hard time thinking it could be a better NLE and be a better compositor than After Effects. Flying text is one one, but.......... :roll:
Viva La After Effects!!!
It took me 4 years to learn After Effects well.
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todddarling
Mar 2, 2004, 2:26 PM
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Color Correction I's agree with, but I still use After effects for most compositing and graphic or effects work I use Final cut for my editing and final output. I also use combustion for color correcting and some effects. but, I like the way after effects handles text, and I'm use to the interface. Had the opportunity to learn shake and love it but the company I work for hasn't bought it yet and I don't feel like spending $5000 on software. IT's awesome for compositiing work!
Todd
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zozo
Mar 2, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Ive never heard of Shake. Who makes it? My brother used to to work for Media 100 - I say used to because its going out of business. They sank EVERYTHING they had into this high def system when everyone else was going DV Xpress and Final Cut.. Its kinda sad, Media 100 was the first system I ever learned on.
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zozo
Mar 2, 2004, 2:47 PM
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I actually heard something about a PC version of Final Cut awhile ago, but it fizzled. Anyone know if it is still in the works?
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aarong
Mar 2, 2004, 3:26 PM
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To Verttical_Rockrat:
First let me say that I am no expert on DV video/editing - I have a lot of experience but admittedly I still have a lot to learn - I will share what I've learned thus far about cameras, video and editing systems.
There are distinct differences in digital cameras and digital picture quality. You may find megapixels listed on some dv cameras but only because they have a still pic capture feature. There are different kinds of DV formats you can get: DVC Pro, DVC Cam, and DV (mini DV) formats. The Pro and Cam are going to be in a higher level, more professional video and generally more expensive. You are probably going to be looking at the miniDV format. Look at pixels per inch/resolution and CCD. You'll notice on the higher-end cameras they will have 3 CCDs which means there is an individual channel for each color (red, green, blue - I believe). There are so many features on cameras it's hard to go into all of it. And so much of it is based on what you can afford. If you want high picture quality that's one thing, interchangable lens is another, type of mic (sound) is going to be a big factor - don't overlook this. I have a sony mini-dv camera with a built in mic and the sound quality is terrible because you can actually hear the camera running on the mic - I hate that. For shooting climbing action you will also want to look at zoom features, useability (how easy is it to hold, move, etc.), picture stabilizer, LCD screen size. The best thing to do is just start comparing different cameras within a price range you can afford and research those features or technical jargon you haven't heard of. As far as NTSC vs. PAL - PAL is generally not used in the USA - I would only buy NTSC if you are in the US.
As far as affordable solutions for capturing devices for your computer - if you want external - look at the ADVC 100 Canopus converter to change your analog to digital and then use Adobe Premiere to edit. Not a bad setup. You will need to increase your RAM and hard drive space.
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aarong
Mar 2, 2004, 3:30 PM
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Shake 3 is about $4950 and is made by Apple. It is supposed to be awesome.
Also, I never heard of Final Cut Pro for PC - guess it could happen.
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todddarling
Mar 2, 2004, 3:52 PM
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I doubt it. From a profit standpoint it's better to make the software great and get people to buy a new computer to run it on. But who knows what is in the Mind of Steve Jobs.
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 2, 2004, 5:10 PM
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Thanks for the input and i was looking at the 1000-2000 more like 1500 ish range since i have a sony handycam right now, no reason to buy less when i need more lol....
And thanks for all that input.
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zozo
Mar 2, 2004, 7:53 PM
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Can anyone reccomend a good stock library for action footage? Not just climbing but all kinds of stuff?
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betadog
Mar 2, 2004, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: I actually heard something about a PC version of Final Cut awhile ago, but it fizzled. Anyone know if it is still in the works?
Rumor had it that they were going to make a PC version, but that was a long time ago. Realistically a couple of years. Deal is that Avid has the market on PC's and they don't want to see Final Cut make it's way over because it has less flaws and is also more user friendly. Can't really go wrong with getting into the MAC era, although the G4 is still more reliable than the G5 for now, but not for long.
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 3, 2004, 4:43 AM
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Another question about videography of rock climbing is sound really that important when taping the climbs since most time's people put music over it. I can see maybe when talking down at the base or on the summit but mid climb would sound quality really be that bad? I mean even a far shot is to far to pick up with a good mic his cussing about that last clip lol..
EDIT: i stumbled onto this site if anyone wants a site with lots of hardware software for videos, might be a good place to just browse and see what is out there maybe. http://www.omegamultimedia.com/
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betadog
Mar 3, 2004, 2:11 PM
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Audio is a problem no matter what material your filming. Have you ever seen rough footage where it sounds like your in a wind tunnel. That sound could be nothing more than a tiny breeze, but those microphones pick up everything. That's more or less why music is always layered over the film. Prime example Whiskey 1-3 snowboarding/skateboarding video footage. Highly recommend!
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aarong
Mar 3, 2004, 3:08 PM
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The quality of sound you want is, of course, going to be based on the type of video/movie you want to shoot. If you are planning on doing the typical climb/music video you are not going to need great sound quality - b/c you can have your music on a seperate track (in editing phase) and mute out the video noise. BUT - if you want to have good sound quality outdoors you are going to need a good shotgun mic. There are several different kinds of mics which are mechanically different and will pick up sound in different ways and therefore have unique sound qualities. I spent a day just researching sound and microphones and the differences between them all. It may be an obvious statement, but not all mics function the same - especially outdoors! Even shotgun mics have differences between them which allow them to pick up bigger areas and longer distances. The mics on most consumer camcorders are shite unless you are shooting home video. They pick up any little sound, including the tape turning inside the camera, and wind noise. If you want good sound quality it's worth looking into a camera with a good mic setup or an external mic system.
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vertical-rockrat
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Mar 3, 2004, 9:14 PM
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Thanks for teh responce on the mic, now will someone respond to the camera around 1500 i should look at, im seeking a grest video and if possible a way to plug in a diffrent mic to help with my sound quality later.
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