|
takeme
Dec 6, 2004, 8:36 PM
Post #26 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2003
Posts: 367
|
In reply to: In reply to: Tradman, it seems like you really bent on undermining my opinion not because it has no base but because it is different from yours. Yes, it's called "debating". You state a position and I attempt to prove you wrong. It's a shame that you're taking this so personally, I'll leave you alone for now.
It's a shame that you've made it personal.
|
|
|
|
|
rocknalaska
Dec 6, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #27 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 19, 2002
Posts: 129
|
Most of what has been said has been based on personal experience Well, to add in my experience:
Some people adapt to real rock very well from gym climbing, some adapt very poorly.
Some people have a difficult time transitioning from indoor to outdoor and vice versa, and some people have no trouble at all.
Some people learn good technique in a gym, some people don't.
Some people learn good technique climbing outside, some people don't.
This last statement seems very pertinent to this argument. If climbing outside can lead to poor technique, then it is not outside or inside climbing that leads to poor technique, rather some other factor.
To add more muck to the already murky water of this debate, different people have different ideas of what is good technique. I've met people who have great crack climbing technique(climbing up to 5.12 trad) who fall off of a 5.10 sport route because they have no concept of certain basic sport techniques.
I think the problem stems from generalization. It takes a certain skill set to climb inside. It takes different skills to climb outside. Some of these skills transfer very well. Some don't. I think how much transfers accross is more based upon the individual rather than the location.
Last thought. Lets change outside and inside to granite and limestone. You can apply the same argument. And it is equally invalid.
My .02$
|
|
|
|
|
bad_lil_kitty
Dec 6, 2004, 10:14 PM
Post #28 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2004
Posts: 2341
|
In reply to: In reply to: oh and re: technique - it's really the person.... kinda like, it's not the computer that is failing... it's the kid operating it ;) My thought is that gyms spawn new climbers, and new climbers have bad technique. Manufactured holds, primarily flat wall surfaces, and paint-by-numbers routes may poorly prepare indoor climbers for outdoor climbing, but they are better than nothing. I don't know why the OP things someone needs any climbing technique to transition to real rock, anyway. She'll go outside, develop new skills, etc. Recommend starting a couple of grades lower than in the gym to get a feeling for real rock and see how she does. I'd worry more about focusing on proper anchoring and safety issues rather than technique. That's what's probably most lacking in strictly gym climbers.
I'm not sure really what you're getting out - what your rebuttal is towards me. That said, there are different elements, different styles which may require different techniques and to have a set of techniques that work well regardless of one's enviornment can be a good thing.... for example:
I am a MAC user - I use different techniques when writing tech documents (which is what I do for a living). Those techniques and short-cuts may not be the best for editing programs I use while working on a PC. Two similar (concepts here would be parallel to climbing) things requiring two different methods (techniques) - the outcome (goal of climbing is to top out) is a finished project that is finished in a timely and accurate manner.
Why be good at two things that perhaps I may not use on a daily basis (e.g. inside vs outdoors climbing) cause it makes me a more well rounded candidate when I test Gov. applications; I know the technology behind the two (how the applications work on MACs and PCs); with the knowledge and skills that have allowed me to use the technique (fast and efficiently) I may be offered perhaps a new position based upon the fact that I can work on two separate platforms (environments).
|
|
|
|
|
bad_lil_kitty
Dec 6, 2004, 10:18 PM
Post #29 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2004
Posts: 2341
|
In reply to: In reply to: Tradman, it seems like you really bent on undermining my opinion not because it has no base but because it is different from yours. Yes, it's called "debating". You state a position and I attempt to prove you wrong. It's a shame that you're taking this so personally, I'll leave you alone for now.
:D oh tradman - you'll be dreaming of these kids too ;) :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
korntera
Dec 6, 2004, 10:28 PM
Post #30 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 422
|
I love gym climbers than can be kinda funny. One guy I took climbing outdoors after he climbed in the gym for a year( I had only been climbing 6 months at the time) And i hoped on a 5.7 and lead it and then belayed him from the top so we could do the second pitch on his first outdoor climb. Halfway up the 5.7(and he climbs a full number ahead of me in the gym) he was scared and thought he was on the hardest thing of his life. It was very funny to see this gym climber struggling on a 5.7 when a climber who had climbed for half as long outdoor could climb 3 number grades higher. If you climb indoors and CAN go outdoors, do it ever chance you freaking get or get laughed at when you tell people you climbed 3 times a week for a year and want your mom on a 5.7
|
|
|
|
|
jonnyb
Dec 6, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #31 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2003
Posts: 51
|
As solely an outdoor climber for many years, I finally joined a gym a bit less than a year ago. I have found it has helped tremendously with my technique. Reading sequences, being deliberate with my feet, all kinds of things. It's even helped my lead head. Gyms can be a great place to learn technique, but like anything, you have to focus on learning technique to learn it...
..oh yea, they make you strong too..
|
|
|
|
|
cgranite
Dec 7, 2004, 12:07 AM
Post #32 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2003
Posts: 366
|
The Gym is not a place to learn good technique. If you are a person that is new to climbing, then obviously your going to be learning technique in a gym. That is basic climbing technique, which you could just as easily learn by climbing a tree. Once a person has learned basic techniques, the Gym will only hinder their progression in this area.
The gym will only build strong muscle because the individual is constantly forcing bad technique.
I bet that muscles will even develop unconventionally for outdoor climbing and good technique.
True Technique is learned by going out doors with a partner who is better than you, and who has climbed much longer than you.
Poor technique will make climbing a punishment that will only give you satisfaction through accomplishments, while good technique will make climbing flow and give you pleasure no matter what.
That is what I have learned through my experiences in climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
itakealot
Dec 7, 2004, 12:33 AM
Post #33 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2003
Posts: 382
|
In reply to: The Gym is not a place to learn good technique. If you are a person that is new to climbing, then obviously your going to be learning technique in a gym. That is basic climbing technique, which you could just as easily learn by climbing a tree. Once a person has learned basic techniques, the Gym will only hinder their progression in this area. The gym will only build strong muscle because the individual is constantly forcing bad technique. I bet that muscles will even develop unconventionally for outdoor climbing and good technique. True Technique is learned by going out doors with a partner that better than you, and who has climbed much longer than you. Poor technique will make climbing a punishment that will only give you satisfaction through accomplishments, while good technique will make climbing flow and give you pleasure no matter what. That is what I have learned through my experiences in climbing.
Thanks for spelling it out, I concurr and probably minions of others.
as for this:
In reply to: Oh, I see. You're saying that people who have poor technique and need to improve shouldn't train - because they don't know how to, is that it? That's much clearer. :lol: Keep going, you're getting sillier.
I give up. I am invoking Occam's Razor principle. (maculated, coylec, is this the proper usage?)
|
|
|
|
|
phlsphr
Dec 7, 2004, 1:02 AM
Post #34 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 262
|
I think the gym is a good place to learn and improve technique. I work on my technique a lot in the gym over the winter, and it pays off outside over summer. Its not that the gym fosters poor technique, its just that it doesn't foster all the technique you will need. The problem is that you can only work on a subset of the technique you need at a typical gym. The smaller the gym, the more this is so. My gym has no cracks, no slab, and not much in the way of roofs to pull, so obviously offers no little or no way to improve those particular techniques. Moreover, the technique I can work on is limited to the variety of routes set by the route setters.
The other point being largely missed in this discussion is that what you don't learn in a gym is how to read rock. Reading a route in a gym is fundamentally different than reading routes outside, because in the gym you should ask yourself "Why did the routesetter put that particular hold in that particular spot, oriented in that particular way?" That kind of question makes no sense outside. It is not "poor technique" to ask that question indoors, but it is a way of thinking about routes that does not transfer to outside.
|
|
|
|
|
jonnyb
Dec 7, 2004, 1:04 AM
Post #35 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2003
Posts: 51
|
In reply to: The gym will only build strong muscle because the individual is constantly forcing bad technique.
I really don't see why you think this. Maybe it has to do with what someone said earlier about routesetters. If the routes aren't well set, I'd imagine they wouldn't be that beneficial. I climb at a gym with really quality routesetters.
Trust me, I used to be on the other side of the fence. I wouldn't go near gyms. A climber who was far better than me recommended I go to the gym, saying it would really help my technique. I've found the most drastic jump in my ability since joining the gym.
For me, it really simplifies the equasion when you have the holds already set out for you and the climber's job is to then figure out the most effecient way to move through the sequence. In 'real' climbing, it is all much more complicated, with many more options, but I find myself coming up with much more clever solutions to cruxes, and creative ways of saving my arms that I'd never considered before.
|
|
|
|
|
thinksinpictures
Dec 7, 2004, 1:18 AM
Post #36 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 447
|
In reply to: I am invoking Occam's Razor principle.
Occam's razor is the principle that entities must not be multiplied beyond what is necessary, or in simpler terms, the idea that the simplest explanation is the most appropriate. Given a variety of experiences as to whether gym climbing helps or hinders outdoor technique, I'm inclined to suggest that the simplest explanation in this thread is that the development of good technique in a gym setting is a function of the quality of routes, and thus the quality of routesetters.
Finals really bring out the post-whore in me.
|
|
|
|
|
cgranite
Dec 7, 2004, 1:49 AM
Post #37 of 37
(4487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2003
Posts: 366
|
What I meant by that comment was that if a person is climbing with poor technique then they will be putting unnecessary force on their fingers, arms, and backs causing certain muscles to constantly grow giving them a crutch for bad movement. In the gym this can also cause injury quicker than someone with good technique.
By my statement, I didn't mean that the gym doesn't build muscle. The only use for the gym is to build muscle, endurance, and give 24-7 climbing.
I think the gym is a great place to build power and strength for increasing your ability, but there is much more to climbing than strength and your not going to get that from the gym.
I know there are a lot of people who go to the gym and then go out doors, and feel that they climbed better due to technique rather than the fact that they climbed stronger because they had three pumpy gym sessions earlier that week.
It is truth that technique optimizes the strength you all ready have and will make you feel stronger while climbing, but also just building muscle can have the same effect. That is what the gym does.
You can train Technical movements in the gym in order to build those tiny muscles needed, but it's not going to build up the engrams you will need for applying it on rock.
And it’s good someone mentioned reading rock because that’s the most important part in applying proper technique. Another thing to note it the fact that gym holds are generally screwed onto the wall, so every hold is immediately positive. This is very different from the real rock, especially when reading the situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
