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muleypt
Jul 3, 2002, 10:59 PM
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I am not necessarily a beginner, but I have never simul-climbed before and really have no idea what it is. A friend of mine has mentioned it as a possibility for moving quicker on a multi-pitch climb we're planning. An "epic-preventer" I guess. A little help?
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ubangie
Jul 3, 2002, 11:14 PM
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LOL epic preventer, it's more like an epic maker. I've never simul-climbed on rock before but I have on ice, it's quick, but dangerous, and you'd better know how to self arrest like a pro. To quote the infamous Mr. Horse from Ren and Stempy "no sir I don't like it"
Simul-climbing is when all parties on the rope are moving at the same time, without a belay and with very little if any pro. I would never ever recommend, do or even think about it for rock where you have no chance if you take a fall. On ice and snow you have your tools to give you a chance to self arrest if you fall.
Edit: my advice, don't do it.
[ This Message was edited by: ubangie on 2002-07-03 16:47 ]
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muleypt
Jul 3, 2002, 11:24 PM
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So, for rock climbing, you have at least one piece of pro on the rope between you and your partner? How much rope is out between you - what do you do with the excess rope?
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bradhill
Jul 3, 2002, 11:25 PM
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You definitely have to always be aware of the possiblity of pulling your partner off the rock if you fall and making sure you have enough pro inbetween to hold both of you. At the very least, get a handful of tiblocs and rig the rope through them so a fall by the second doesn't pull the leader off. You have to keep pace with this method though- don't let slack develop by overtaking the leader.
Another problem with this is that you tend to run out of gear and place it sparsely since you're not rendevouzing to swap racks.
Mostly recommended for really easy stuff.
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woodse
Jul 3, 2002, 11:25 PM
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Simul-climbing is when both people are climbing at the same time. The leader is placing gear and climbing while the second climbs and cleans. Usuually this done on easier climbs where there is little chance of someone taking a fall.
woodsE
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bradhill
Jul 3, 2002, 11:29 PM
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One piece of pro is only acceptable where your partner can take steps to brace themselves and only low factor falls are a possibility. This usually means snow slopes or very mild ice slopes, where one picket or ice screw can (not always) be OK if both people have ice axes and can self arrest.
5th class rock with one piece of pro for two people is just madness.
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krustyklimber
Jul 4, 2002, 1:00 AM
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Think of simul-climbing as soloing while attached to someone else stupid enough to solo while attached to someone else.
Nobody can fall (DON'T FALL)like on the ice or snow, there is no self arresting. But like mentioned above you can do it on easy ground.
And it will save time as long as you and your partner can easily cover the ground with NO possilbity of a fall. If not (DON'T FALL)the rope will only help the rescuers spot your bodies from the air. If you are run out sixtyfeet over your last pro and your second falls you will not be able to help him and he may pull you off (DON"T FALL).
All the scary stuff aside, if you both are able to "simul-solo" it you'll be in for one of the greatest days on the rock you'll have had so far! Moving light and fast over the rock with very little pro in between you and your partner is exhilarating!
You will start at the first place you rope up by one of you belaying the other while he leads off, when he reaches the end of the rope you'll just remove the belay device and follow him (DON'T FALL). When you reach a piece of pro yell "cleaning" and your partner will stop and wait, and when you have it racked yell "climbing" and the two of you can take off. Likewise with the placement of gear if it is going to take very long yell "gear" and have the second wait (but this is usually apparent as the rope stops moving so will the second, but if the climbing is really easy run ahead of the rope a little ways so you can clean without stopping the leader).
If someone falls (DON'T FALL) don't try any silly hero tricks like running/jumping off, just hold on for all you are worth!
Good luck and have fun, when you finish you'll be hooked, simul-climbing is what the pioneers intended climbing to feel like!
Jeff
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smithclimber
Jul 4, 2002, 2:07 AM
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Hmmmmmm......ummmmm........so I take this means we SHOULDN'T FALL, right?
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philbox
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Jul 4, 2002, 3:10 AM
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Yep, don`t fall. Also the better climber is usually the guy on the bottom of the rope.
One thing that you can do is to tie in to the bottom of the rope (Phil stating the obvious) but also insert a Gri Gri so that as you both are moving up and the leader wants to stop and place gear you can continue up whilst also taking up. Obviously this calls for a fairly deft hand as you`ll not only be wanting to keep two hands on the rock but you`ll be wanting to take up with the rope as well.
You`ll be wanting to Simulclimb about 2 or 3 grades under what you are able to lead confidently. I`ve gotta agree that simulclimbing is an awesome way of covering lotsa ground. Just don`t fall, second thought the second should doubly make sure he doesn`t fall as the consequences of that occurance is evil for the leader as he`ll be yanked down and almost pulled through his last piece of gear.
Simulclimbing is a pretty good strategy for those rope stretching pitches or for trying to link two pitches together as one where you`ve only got a sixty metre rope and the two combined pitches are say 65 metres.
Oddly enough when you`re climbing on harder climbs and you`ve got heaps of pro between you then the second will become a static counter weight belay as he makes his way up.
Remember this the second shall not fall. If the leader falls then the consequences are not so severe particularly if you`ve got heaps of bomber gear in. Look at it this way you`ve simply got a really long anchor that isn`t equalised.
...Phil...
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natec
Jul 4, 2002, 3:29 AM
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A good resource for info on simul-climbing is Hans Florine's book "Climb on- Skills for More Efficient Climbing." It has the most information anywhere in print that I have been able to find. It is a very valuable resource on cutting edge techniques. You can find a link as to where to buy it on Hans' site www.speedclimb.com.
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krustyklimber
Jul 4, 2002, 5:46 PM
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HMMMMM.... UMMMM... Smithclimber...
Isn't that what you kept telling, saying, yelling, praying from up there on the lead on Tenaya Peak!?!
We did have a GREAT day, that day, huh?
Jeff
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paulc
Jul 4, 2002, 7:15 PM
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Definitely second the opinion on Hans' book, it is quite good.
The one thing that can help to protect the leader from a falling second is a tibloc or other ascender rigged upside down, but these devices are not really designed for this and may shred your rope if not setup correctly. If you are looking for more info on using tiblocs or whatever this way, check out the rec.climbing thread on this topic, I think it is about 200 something posts long.
Even with a tibloc or whatever rigged you still don't ever want to fall.
Paul
PS please don't let this thread degenerate into a tibloc flame war, that has already been covered on rec.climbing, check it out over there if you don't like the idea of using a tibloc or whatever this way.
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apollodorus
Jul 4, 2002, 10:12 PM
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As long as you're asking, I recently did the Snake Dike "Alpine Style". This wasn't simul-climbing, but close enough.
The leader went up normally, then the two followers tied in about 20 feet apart on the rope and climbed up at the same time. We did the climb from base to top in just over an hour. We used a single 8.8mm rope, but then again, my two partners were from Italy and they knew what they were doing. Great fun!
I've never simul-climbed, but you need to have more than one piece between the climbers at all times (common sense), and do any changeovers at a good belay (common sense).
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beyond_gravity
Jul 13, 2002, 10:54 PM
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It's not THAT dangerouse. On exposed and difficult scrambles I do it. I place 1 piece every 15-20 feet, and allways have 1 tibloc on the rope so if the second falls i'm not gonna get dragged down!
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jmlangford
Jul 13, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Dangit natec! You beat me to it! That book by Hans and Bill Wright is great! BTW, Hans went to my school(Cal Poly SLO) and my local shop(Granite Stairway Mountaineering) in San Luis Obispo is the first climbing shop Hans set foot in. I'd love to meet the guy some day.
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wildtrail
Jul 13, 2002, 11:45 PM
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Kudos to Ubangie for the Ren and Stimpy reference!!!!!!
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-07-13 16:45 ]
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-07-13 16:46 ]
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crackaddict
Jul 13, 2002, 11:57 PM
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It's faster!
And you better have it together.
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eminem_imposter
Jul 14, 2002, 12:03 AM
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DONT! ive seen enough ppl say what it is so i dont think i need to but all it should be used for is climbing a mountain like everest or something when your not actually climbing, just walking up a hill that has some kind of intereference (snow) that could potentially be a hazard if someone tripped and couldnt catch themselves, the other 20 or so people would provide enough resistance to keep them from going back to basecamp unintentionally.
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tarzan420
Jul 14, 2002, 5:44 AM
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what is the difference between this and a running belay?
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