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mrswix
Jun 27, 2008, 6:33 AM
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I wasn't sure whether this should go into Gearheads or Technique...anyways...
I've been taught to clean with a personal anchoring system on the two anchors but I recently watch Chris Lindner's Sport Climbing 101 and he uses 3 QDs instead (one off his belay loop, two at the end of that draw and each to an anchor)...what do you guys think?
Also, I did notice the thread beneath me talking of a similar subject...so I add:
Is it not safe to have my daisy girth hitched to my belay loop with two locking biners on the chain, one on each anchor. One biner is unweighted and set up as redundant while my entire weight is on the other DC loop/biner/anchor. what do you think?
(This post was edited by mrswix on Jun 27, 2008, 6:47 AM)
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kricir
Jun 27, 2008, 7:02 AM
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As long as you keep it weighted don't move around the chances of it unclipping are extremely low. I don't like daisy chains or the PAS and have always used draws or runners to clean, keeps you setup simple.
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 8:06 AM
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mrswix wrote: I wasn't sure whether this should go into Gearheads or Technique...anyways... I've been taught to clean with a personal anchoring system on the two anchors but I recently watch Chris Lindner's Sport Climbing 101 and he uses 3 QDs instead (one off his belay loop, two at the end of that draw and each to an anchor)...what do you guys think? Also, I did notice the thread beneath me talking of a similar subject...so I add: Is it not safe to have my daisy girth hitched to my belay loop with two locking biners on the chain, one on each anchor. One biner is unweighted and set up as redundant while my entire weight is on the other DC loop/biner/anchor. what do you think?
I think that if you could learn to write a coherent question you'd be more likely to get a useful answer.
Jay
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seatbeltpants
Jun 27, 2008, 10:03 AM
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i'm no expert but i don't quite see the point of the three draw setup - redundancy is always good, but the double biners to the anchors seem like pseudo redundancy to some extent as it still has the entire anchor relying on a single non-locking biner at your loop. it seems to me that this is introducing a lot of potential failure points as well. the chance of a biner failing is spitting distance from zero but this setup has screeds of biners serving little purpose.
on your second point, i'd possibly be cautious about having one biner unweighted as that means that if the weighted anchor fails you'll shock load the backup. does this arrangement achieve anything that weighting both anchors would not? having both weighted retains the redundancy both eliminates the chance of shock loading, and also means that there's less chance of an anchor failing as each on will be holding half your weight.
personally, i use a single sewn sling attached to my loop by a girth hitch with a single locking biner attached to the anchor. no redundancy which is probably not so great, but very simple. to some extent i'd suggest that simplicity is key as it means there's almost nothing that i can screw up when i reach the anchor.
ymmv, and i'm sure there are far more experienced folk out there who will comment, but the method i use makes a lot of sense to me and it's the method used by pretty much all the experienced climbers i know.
steve
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 10:58 AM
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seatbeltpants wrote: personally, i use a single sewn sling attached to my loop by a girth hitch with a single locking biner attached to the anchor. no redundancy which is probably not so great, but very simple.
Yeah, well, you can get too simple. Your setup is simply an accident waiting to happen. Even assuming that anchor bolts are always bombproof, your setup is exactly two steps away from death: (1) forget to lock the biner, (2) accidentally open it while rethreading the rope to lower. I've had (2) happen often enough to know that a redundant attachment to the anchor is necessary. Furthermore, anchor bolts are not always bombproof. I know of only one case of a failure of a top-anchor bolt under body weight, but how many cases do you have to know of before you take appropriate precautions.
Nice work posting information that could get some n00b killed.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 27, 2008, 11:03 AM)
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getout87
Jun 27, 2008, 12:01 PM
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jt512 wrote: seatbeltpants wrote: personally, i use a single sewn sling attached to my loop by a girth hitch with a single locking biner attached to the anchor. no redundancy which is probably not so great, but very simple. Yeah, well, you can get too simple. Your setup is simply an accident waiting to happen. Even assuming that anchor bolts are always bombproof, your setup is exactly two steps away from death: (1) forget to lock the biner, (2) accidentally open it while rethreading the rope to lower. I've had (2) happen often enough to know that a redundant attachment to the anchor is necessary. Furthermore, anchor bolts are not always bombproof. I know of only one case of a failure of a top-anchor bolt under body weight, but how many cases do you have to know of before you take appropriate precautions. Nice work posting information that could get some n00b killed. Jay
I'm not trying to be a jackass in any way, but what method do you use Jay?
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 12:51 PM
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getout87 wrote: jt512 wrote: seatbeltpants wrote: personally, i use a single sewn sling attached to my loop by a girth hitch with a single locking biner attached to the anchor. no redundancy which is probably not so great, but very simple. Yeah, well, you can get too simple. Your setup is simply an accident waiting to happen. Even assuming that anchor bolts are always bombproof, your setup is exactly two steps away from death: (1) forget to lock the biner, (2) accidentally open it while rethreading the rope to lower. I've had (2) happen often enough to know that a redundant attachment to the anchor is necessary. Furthermore, anchor bolts are not always bombproof. I know of only one case of a failure of a top-anchor bolt under body weight, but how many cases do you have to know of before you take appropriate precautions. Nice work posting information that could get some n00b killed. Jay I'm not trying to be a jackass in any way, but what method do you use Jay?
Two draws: one into each bolt. Duh.
Jay
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getout87
Jun 27, 2008, 1:09 PM
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jt512 wrote: getout87 wrote: jt512 wrote: seatbeltpants wrote: personally, i use a single sewn sling attached to my loop by a girth hitch with a single locking biner attached to the anchor. no redundancy which is probably not so great, but very simple. Yeah, well, you can get too simple. Your setup is simply an accident waiting to happen. Even assuming that anchor bolts are always bombproof, your setup is exactly two steps away from death: (1) forget to lock the biner, (2) accidentally open it while rethreading the rope to lower. I've had (2) happen often enough to know that a redundant attachment to the anchor is necessary. Furthermore, anchor bolts are not always bombproof. I know of only one case of a failure of a top-anchor bolt under body weight, but how many cases do you have to know of before you take appropriate precautions. Nice work posting information that could get some n00b killed. Jay I'm not trying to be a jackass in any way, but what method do you use Jay? Two draws: one into each bolt. Duh. Jay
didn't know, thats why I asked. Thanks.
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Carnage
Jun 27, 2008, 1:52 PM
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im a big fan of using a 48" runner. i thread it through my belay loop then take all the strands and tie a big overhand. It leaves me with w/ 2, 1.5 feet loops. clip each loop to an anchor point and your done.
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mrswix
Jun 27, 2008, 4:13 PM
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how can you even get your feet up for laying back if your body is clipped so close to the wall?
aaand...what exactly is incoherent about my question?
getout: i see what you mean about shock loading the second biner. i'll work on it. thanks.
(This post was edited by mrswix on Jun 27, 2008, 4:15 PM)
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jdefazio
Jun 27, 2008, 5:38 PM
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mrswix wrote: how can you even get your feet up for laying back if your body is clipped so close to the wall?
Jay has really good footwork.
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 8:31 PM
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mrswix wrote: how can you even get your feet up for laying back if your body is clipped so close to the wall?
Laying back? To clean the anchors?
In reply to: I recently watch Chris Lindner's Sport Climbing 101 and he uses 3 QDs instead (one off his belay loop, two at the end of that draw and each to an anchor)
Have you watched the full video or just the 4-min promotional clip on YouTube? I've only watched the clip, and I see the setup you're talking about. I have trouble believing that it is recommended in the full video; no way is it safe. He is connected to the anchor by only a single non-locking carabiner. It's way too easy for a single non-locking biner to come unclipped while you're fiddling around at the anchors. A secondary problem is the direct connection of the non-locking biner of the quick draw from his harness to the non-locking biners of the quickdraws on the anchor chains.
If that's the setup that Chris is recommending to clean the anchors, I wouldn't want to be around when Tom watches the video.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 27, 2008, 9:16 PM)
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mrswix
Jun 27, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Yes, laying back to clean the anchors.
And yes, he does it in the full video, which I also thought was strange...
(This post was edited by mrswix on Jun 27, 2008, 9:04 PM)
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jt512
Jun 27, 2008, 9:21 PM
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mrswix wrote: Yes, laying back to clean the anchors.
I usually employ laying back as a climbing technique. I somehow missed the fact that it is a cleaning technique, too.
In reply to: And yes, he does it in the full video, which I also thought was strange...
The degree of safety afforded by a single non-locking connection to the anchor speaks for itself.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 27, 2008, 9:22 PM)
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mrswix
Jun 28, 2008, 2:37 AM
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Oh youre witty.
bringing up your feet and leaning backwards off the wall, therefore weighting the anchor/biner/anchoring system and taking your weight off the rope to begin the cleaning process.
hows that? |
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jt512
Jun 28, 2008, 6:00 AM
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mrswix wrote: Oh youre witty. bringing up your feet and leaning backwards off the wall, therefore weighting the anchor/biner/anchoring system and taking your weight off the rope to begin the cleaning process. hows that?
"How's that?" Unnecessary. Thanks to gravity you don't have to "layback" to weight the chains, and thanks to the command "slack" you don't have to do anything (besides speak) to unweight the rope. You're either one incoherent motherfucker, or you have a weird idea about how to clean an anchor.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 28, 2008, 6:18 AM)
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bradley3297
Jun 28, 2008, 6:26 AM
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people getting a little carried away with simple body weight. you got light weight on personal anchor that is rated to hold more than a thousand pounds. i wouldnt waste time with a load of draws. be redundant but not silly.
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anykineclimb
Jun 28, 2008, 6:53 AM
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I prefer the draw method because they're already up there. duh
My method is modified though:
I use a sling girth hitched to my haness and a locker on one bolt. I then disconnect the draw on the sling side and link it to the other one still on a bolt. then I clip that to my harness.
Redundancy without annoying, dangly webbing everywhere.
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seatbeltpants
Jun 28, 2008, 8:42 AM
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sounds good to me, anykineclimb - i'll be adding your additional draw to my method. thanks for the interesting discussion, ya'll, and i'll be passing on the comments to the other folk i climb with for sure.
steve
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dondada
Jun 28, 2008, 9:52 AM
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at risk of getting my enrish critiqued by professor jay i would like to know what you guys think of my set-up. i use 2 dyneema slings on a locking biner(always locked) attached to my belay loop and a wire gate on the end of each sling. should i have a locker for each sling or is one good enough?? i love how easy and light this set up is but adding another light weight locker wouldn't break my heart.
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jt512
Jun 28, 2008, 1:03 PM
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dondada wrote: at risk of getting my enrish critiqued by professor jay i would like to know what you guys think of my set-up. i use 2 dyneema slings on a locking biner(always locked) attached to my belay loop and a wire gate on the end of each sling. should i have a locker for each sling or is one good enough?? i love how easy and light this set up is but adding another light weight locker wouldn't break my heart.
You should have a separate biner for each sling, and you should clip them to your belay loop in a reversed and opposed orientation; and therefore, neither has to be a locker.
Jay
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zeke_sf
Jun 28, 2008, 3:13 PM
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anykineclimb wrote: I prefer the draw method because they're already up there. duh My method is modified though: I use a sling girth hitched to my haness and a locker on one bolt. I then disconnect the draw on the sling side and link it to the other one still on a bolt. then I clip that to my harness. Redundancy without annoying, dangly webbing everywhere.
I really like this one. I've always used two doubled shoulder slings with two lockers apiece that are set aside on my back gear loop for personal anchoring, but your method isn't bad.
I've had somebody recommend the three draw system but I always felt like, yes, you're not jammed up against the anchor but there's an unnecessary lack of redundancy. The person who suggested it explained that it was "how people clean" where he is from. Maybe he climbed in Lindner's area.
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laanguiano
Jun 28, 2008, 5:42 PM
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This topic shouldn't be that hard. Girth 2 slings to your harness. Have a locking biner on each sling. Attach each sling to a separate bolt via the locking biner.
Done.
Close the thread
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dondada
Jun 28, 2008, 5:48 PM
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groovy, i just picked up some camp nano 23's they're sooooooo light. i'll give it a try when im out this week.
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zeke_sf
Jun 28, 2008, 9:17 PM
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laanguiano wrote: Done. Close the thread
You'd think it would be done, but you would be wrong.
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