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pirate
Jul 21, 2003, 7:01 PM
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Registered: May 12, 2003
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Howdy :D
So I want to purchase some new crampons and would like to hear some peoples take on a couple of ones Ive been looking at.
First off these will be used for alpine climbing with mixed plus variable ice plus glacier travel of course. I want one pair that will do it all and I know some sacrifices will have to be made.
Right now I have been using my long trusted tyrol step ins semi rigid with horizontal front points.
With these crampons (despite not having super aggressive secondary points) I can climb WI5 plus all the alpine ice etc we've been on.
Needless to say Im a fan of horizontal frontpoints and semi rigid of course.
My partner uses the BD Sabretooth and I like them allot I know these will pretty much do anything I ask but would be a little bit more dicey in the bullet hard alpine ice etc.
My other option Ive been looking at is the Bionic by BD but Im not sure how good the hooded vertical front points are in neve or wind pack or softer types of pack snow? Anyone use both types before that could comment?
Another option Ive looked at is the grivel G-14 if I decide to go the vert hooded point type ( has anyone compared the two of these ones?
Lastly the other type I would consider is the DMM Gladiator which would be my alternate choice to the sabretooth. has anyone tried both of these?
Anyway Im only interested in basically these two types so please dont try to convince me on another type ie full rigid or vertical rail, etc thank you.
I would just decide between the two horizontal front point types (thats sorta how Im leaning) but i am opened minded to the hooded vert frontpoint type if they would be solid enough on steep snow. (all would be used with aunty's balls plates of course.
Heres what My take is so far...
I really like the DMM front toe bail, asymmetrical and scalloped points
I also like the BD Bionic but wish it had the grivel front toe bail. plus Instinct tells me that the hooded front points on the grivel would be more stable in the steep snow (maybe its the finish or the hoods look bigger)
Anyway, advice?
Cheers :wink:
Shawn
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rockprodigy
Jul 21, 2003, 7:49 PM
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In reply to: but would be a little bit more dicey in the bullet hard alpine ice etc.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this statement....
I haven't really run into any alpine ice that was harder than waterfall ice on a super-cold winter day. I think horizontal front points (like the sabretooth, or similar) are really the cadillac for alpine climbing. It doesn't get much better for balancing all the different variables: lighter, better for glacier travel, better for crappy ice/snow (think about climbing over bergschrunds), and pretty damn good for steep ice/mixed terrain.
I've done a lot of alpine stuff, and I've never felt like I was held back by my Sabretooth's...maybe on some one pitch, bolted mixed stuff, but never in the alpine arena.
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crag
Jul 21, 2003, 7:49 PM
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Dhuude, I'm currently shod with Grivels Rambo Rs for the vertical stuff and G12s for my glacial travel just finished the North Ridge Route on Baker with my G12s. No complaints what so ever with either pair.
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thegreytradster
Jul 21, 2003, 7:55 PM
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You might want to check out the Grivell 2F's. They worked reasonably well for me on steep blue Autumn sierra ice in the rigid configuration. and my feet didn't feel to abused doing Shasta in them, (hinged configuration). They are lighter than most, not to expensive, come with anti ball plates and in the Newmatic style will fit on about any boot. Wouldn't be my first choice for any waterfalls or long really steep stuff though! Plenty of support and stiffness in the rigid configuration, but the light weight and horozontal front points aren't ideal on the real steep stuff.
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pirate
Jul 21, 2003, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: [quote="rockprodigy"] In reply to: but would be a little bit more dicey in the bullet hard alpine ice etc. I'm not sure I agree with you on this statement.... |
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pirate
Jul 21, 2003, 8:26 PM
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Whoops I wasnt finished with that post, anyway....
When you finally get on some bullet ice you will know what Im talking about.
I agree the sabretooths can do it all (or maybe the DMM i talked about)
how about the others? Do the vert hooded frontpoints lack as much soft condition bite to make them unsuitable for an awesome do it all set of crampons? Im asking cause I dont know, Ive never used them but I know in hard ice vert points bite hard but how much better are the hooded points for the softer stuff?
Another reason Im contemplating the vert frontpoints is we have our eye on a new route that will start out with two huge cascading pillars probably WI6 (about 800') then it tops out onto chrome ice 70-80 degree for a few thousand feet until she turns to bullet hard blue ice all the way up to a few hundred feet from the summit where we suspect it will soften up and possibly include some mix. ( there could be a couple other mixed in the route as well) plus theres huge glacier and soft snow travel as well.
Other routes Im looking to use these on are the ice route on Cerro torre conditions on Fitzroy and on Hunter and on etc.
Thanks for your input
cheers
Shawn
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hammer_
Jul 21, 2003, 8:39 PM
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I use bd bionics on most of my little adventures and they work great. If the hooded front points don't give you enough flotation its easy to mod. The ability to stagger or remove one point is great if your into mixed and the toe bail is superior to the grivels IMO becouse there is less messing around (save time) when your taking them on and off.
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the_iowan
Jul 21, 2003, 9:29 PM
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Registered: May 29, 2003
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sounds like you will be climbing some burly ice - and mostly ice at that. that being said, i'd suggest looking at the Grivel G14's - vertical frontpoints paired with a horizontal frame. these crampons are easy to walk in (flexible frame) and won't hold you back on delicate ice. pair them with the heel piece of the G10 aluminums and they are lighter than sabertooths (12 oz lighter than Bionics). oh, and the hooded frontpoints are definitely wider than those on the Rambocomps, but not sure about the Bionics.
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firn
Jul 22, 2003, 1:59 PM
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Well,
I've been alternating between the Sabretooths and the Bionics for about a year now, for north faces, waterfalls, and ski tours. I definitely prefer the Bionics for really hard ice conditions, but of course the Sabretooths are super cush for your average "non-bullet hard conditions".
Another thing with the Bionics is that the side point after the double point (hope that made sense) is angled back - which makes it not quite as comfy as the Sabretooth when you're hanging out at a belay. The hooded front points seem to do the trick in steep snow - although I have had a few problems when climbing warm steep mushy stuff.
Antibottes work nicely on both models, and seem to be quite durable.
Happy climbing.
+A
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pirate
Jul 22, 2003, 5:26 PM
Post #10 of 20
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Thanks firn
One thing I have decided is not to go with the Dmm just because I know BD steel is some of the best out there and I just couldn't go wrong with the BD.
Im leaning more and more to the sabretooths right now but I still haven't made up my mind.
Just another question firn.
In the soft mushy snow you experienced some difficulty with the bionics, how much of a difference do you think that the sabretooths would have made?
Why does it seem that those angled back points make your belay stance more uncomfortable?
How are the bionics compared to the sabretooths for glacier travel?
Do you think the scalloped points effect the performance of the crampon, if so, for better or for worse?
Thank you for your reply this is the much needed info Im searching for , someone that has directly used both such as in your case.
Just one last question. If you were only going to have one pair which ones would you keep?
Feel free to tell me any quirks you may have with your crampons.
thank you again. :D
Cheers
Shawn
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coconutz
Jul 23, 2003, 6:15 AM
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Registered: Apr 18, 2002
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If you are looking at doing routes on Cerro Torre, why are you asking us for crampon info? :roll:
For what it's worth, if you are doing alpine, go bd sabertooth/ grivel g2/ or CM blackice. Of the three the sabertooths are much better on steep ice due to their secondary points. G2s are good on steep ice too because they are rigid (and simi if you pull the bolt) plus they are the only one of the three that has verticle frame (stiff) which help the calfs a lot on long 60-80deg "bullit proof" ice pitches. The blackice's are the one out of the three that would be most suited for alpine stuff. Steel is a wee bit thiner and is not reinforced for stiffiness like the Sabertooth. The sabertooths have a ridge running down the front points that kinda' acts lik an I beam and makes the long(ish) points stiff when your on thin stuff or rock. FWIW the bd and grivel steel seem to hold an edge longer.
As for the techy poons' I have to say that the CM M10s rock. They are semi rigid and have verticle frames in the fromnt half which I think helps the edge on small holds better than the bionics. Kind of like compairing an ace to a cobra, in rock shoes. The bionics have a flat front section(under fore foot) that tends to flex when you push on it real hard and have the points all the way out and your on a small hold, not a lot but it still flexes. As for the hooded FP thing. It helpes the front points hold in warm sticky ice, where it tends to sheer easily. You would need hoods the size of half dollars on there to help with snow. The hoods on any techy crampon have no where near the cross section of their horizontal cousions. Plus, I feel the design of the M10s with it's mucho adjustable front points (mono. offset mono, off set duel, duel short, duel long, etc + you can adjust the angle from 14 to about~25deg depending on what you are doing) is the way to go with techy crampons.
so alpine(cerro torre, hunter) go with the sabertooths or the grivel g2 and ofr tech go with the M10
It's late and I'm sure my spelling sux and that my grammer is bad, but....... :oops: :roll:
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firn
Jul 23, 2003, 9:56 AM
Post #12 of 20
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Just one pair eh? That's a tough one pirate.
I'll start by saying that I don't think it would have made that much of a difference in soft mushy snow if I had been using the Sabretooths.
The back angled point on the Bionic is uncomfortable for me because you are applying pressure onto one part of the crampon, but it is being distributed in another place. It just doesn't feel very natural. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, its a small issue, and if you are really uncomfortable just cut a bigger step.
I think the bottom line with the two pairs of crampons is that the Bionics perform (for me) better in harder ice conditions, and the Sabretooths work great for long alpine routes. You should bear in mind that I don't climb very hard waterfalls (WI5 max) and the alpine routes that I do are mostly snow and ice faces - not alot of mixed happening.
I should also note that when I have been fooling around on mixed routes the bionics front points hold really well on the rock. Being able to convert them into monopoints is novel as well.
Glacier travel is better with the Sabretooths - they are noticeably lighter.
If I could only have one pair it would be the Sabretooths - but I would miss the bionics for waterfalls...
Hope it helps ya!
+A
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pirate
Jul 23, 2003, 2:53 PM
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I guess I already had my mind made up on the Sabretooths for what Ill be doing, but Im not so narrow minded that I would not take in to consideration the personal opinions of others that have experience with direct comparisons between the other crampons I considered.
To answer cocnutz question;
I know what I like and therefore outlined the types of crampons I would use and there carachteristics. I also have not used certain ones that I would consider and therefore wanted the opinions of those that have used them.
It is quite easy for me to accept or dismiss info I gather from strangers as being either truth and valuable or speculative and worthless (that comes with experience)
I have also talked to others that I climb with and have received there feed back ( but I know what works for some is not always the right solution for others )
Just because my partner and I have big ambition and an itinerary to match doesnt mean that I (we) dont learn anymore from others or that we cant benefit from the experience of others.
Therefore I have taken in to consideration everything here as well as my other sources in helping to decide what Im purchasing.
So far and really since the begining Im leaning towards the sabretooths
but "I dont like to talk about a deal until its signed.":wink:
well see what happens.
Thank you to everyone for all the responses so far.
cheers
Shawn
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tradklime
Jul 23, 2003, 5:54 PM
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If, after all that, you've decided on bionics, I would seriously suggest you take a long look at the G-14's. Much, much lighter and the front points are far superior.
My opinion, it would be a rare circumstance that you would notice any benefit in snow of horizontal points vs. the grivel "T" shaped points.
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pirate
Jul 24, 2003, 6:30 AM
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You must have meant sabretooths as that is what im leaning towards not the bionics.
But out of the two bionics and G-14 Im still open to suggestions. I may end up just picking up two pairs of crampons and retiring my others exclusively to mixed climbing.
I have to admit that out of those two my spidy sense tells me the G-14 would work better for me, but Im still debating.
Basically sooner or later Ill get the sabretooths it just depends if I get them first or I get something else first.
My wife just gave me some extra cash so I could pick some gear up for our upcoming trip to Athabasca/Andromeda so I may end up stopping on the way and picking up a new pair of crampons.
Ahh such a nice wife "heres an extra $400 in case you need to pick some gear up." thinking 'I should feel guilty considering we dont make much money' But saying with glee "okay thank you, are you sure we can pay bills the next cheque?....okay......thanks."
Just got to say she really gets me and is quite content renting our small place having simple things and allowing me to spend the majority of our income on climbing. sheesh
Now Ill take her out for sushi and by saturday Ill be heading up Athabasca......Maybe with a new set of crampons. :wink:
Cheers
Shawn
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njbourne
Jul 30, 2003, 6:25 PM
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I use the G-14 and would recommend them to any one who wheres a stiff boot. In my opinion it is the only crampon any one needs unless they plan on dedicated insane mixed ground or world cup comp.
They hike very well and in the mono-point configeration the can handle well more then most of us mere mortals will incounter.
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rocknut1
Aug 1, 2003, 6:49 PM
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Grivel G14's are my all around choice. They are great to walk in like the BD Sabre tooth, but have forged front points that will allow you to walk up vert. ice that you would struggle with in the sabre tooths. Plus you can make the G14 a mono point if you want. I think they are a little heavier that the sabre tooth but it beats having to carry and buy two pairs of crampons.
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punk
Aug 1, 2003, 7:18 PM
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Sabertooth and BlackIce both Great poons…for hard Alpine ice I’ll go with Blackice for all-around alpine the Sabertooth is the bomb both good both awesome just in my experience the CM metal is superior to all and it will hold the point for a substantial longer time :)
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rockprodigy
Aug 4, 2003, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: but have forged front points that will allow you to walk up vert. ice that you would struggle with in the sabre tooths
Dude, have you ever used Sabretooths? I've climbed WI6's and M8+'s in 'em with no struggling required. How vertical does it need to be before I start struggling?
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akicebum
Sep 6, 2003, 6:44 AM
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OK dude, the G-14 has a European toe bail that needs to be trashed to fit Koflach or BD boots. I have the Sabertooth and Chartlet Moser M-10. One cost (retail $130) the other ($190). That $60 id three weeks of food, six knifeblades or a new cam. I think the G-14 are around $150 or $160. Save your money get the sabertooth it rocks.
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