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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 3:23 PM
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Hello, all. Great site. I can’t believe I didn’t find it earlier.
Brief history of me: Loved climbing, climbed often in college with friends, noticed I (220lbs) fatigued quicker than my friends (160lbs). Went off, joined the army, and really didn’t have access to much quality rock or walls. So, I started training hand strength, so that when I got back state-side, I’d be more than ready.
Train I did. Heavy-Duty grippers(IronMind), block weights, sledge hammer twists, nail bending, plate pinches, plate curls, wrist rollers, the works. A year through that, I finally had a place to put a hang-board, so started some more specific training and found that the once impossible crimp-grip was now doable. More than that, my 220lb ass could knock out a few pull-ups from a 5/8” ledge. Even better, when I finally got back to the rock last year, I could move like I never before thought possible. My hands were transformed.
I was under the assumption that more climbers would train hand strength more specifically, with grippers and other implements. Many of these exercises build the tendon strength that we are looking for, and more so, these exercises build all the stabilizers around the fingers and hand that Will prevent injury. Again, I assumed that more people would train hand strength for these great benefits. Also, this really goes for the warriors that can’t get to a wall due to location or say a deployment. A great supplement to actual training. Yes, I know the battle cry of “the best way to strengthen your hands is to climb”.
My question: The search option doesn’t bring up a single reference to specific hand strength training. Well, just one, but it was half stated and unsure. I’d like to state that I’ve had phenomenal results with specific training, and my abilities on the wall are incomparable to the pre-training me. Why don’t more people use these tools? I learned about the grippers and other toys on a climbers page, and assumed that these tools would be part of every climbers training. Am I wrong? Does anyone else see the benefits of injury-prevention and tendon strength that I do?
Also, forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death in the past, but if the page exists, it’s not in the archives. If so, if some one could point it out, I’d be thankful.
-Eric
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dirtineye
Feb 9, 2004, 4:05 PM
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http://www.google.com/custom?q=finger+strength&sa=Search&cof=LW%3A510%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Frockclimbing.com%2Fimages%2Fbw_banner.gif%3BLC%3A6168F9%3BLH%3A96%3BAH%3Aleft%3BVLC%3A4F77F9%3BAWFID%3A8599633114732863%3B&domains=rockclimbing.com&sitesearch=rockclimbing.com
Try finger strength?
http://www.google.com/custom?q=grip+strength&sa=Search&cof=LW%3A510%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Frockclimbing.com%2Fimages%2Fbw_banner.gif%3BLC%3A6168F9%3BLH%3A96%3BAH%3Aleft%3BVLC%3A4F77F9%3BAWFID%3A8599633114732863%3B&domains=rockclimbing.com&sitesearch=rockclimbing.com
And grip strength?
Just a thought.
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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Ah. I guess that's the difference between "quick search" and the search tab. Thanks.
-Eric
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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 5:59 PM
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After a few hours searching, there was one post on this topic from Oct 2002. Nobody commented then either. :D
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dirtineye
Feb 9, 2004, 6:21 PM
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That's odd. This link came from some thread about hand.finger/grip strength:
http://www.ironmind.com/crushed.shtml
THe iron mind people even claim to help rock climbers specifically in thier chart of who needs what kind of grip.
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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 6:42 PM
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Odd indeed. Thousands of people train hand strength specifically, and the resulting tendon strength is incredible. The direct stimulation of hand tendons with out over-training or forearm soreness is really unmatched. Yes, it won't build skill, but the injury prevention and total hand strength is great. I just wonder why nobody does it. Perhaps "to stay true to the sport"? Comments?
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iltripp
Feb 9, 2004, 7:23 PM
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Congratulations mucau!!!! Your complaints of the under-representation of this topic have just earned you the right to represent it. Let's get some details here...
Seriously though, aside from hangboards and gripballs, I've never really thought of good hand and finger exercises. I wasn't sure about all of the ones you listed above. If you don't mind, I'd love to read a little description of your routine. Also, I thought climbing (or hangboard) was the only way to build tendon strength, and that grip balls didn't help. Which of those exercises specifically target tendons because I would love to do some supplemental training while I can't climb?
Thanks
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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 7:42 PM
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A little of my self: After this saturday, I'll be a certified "Captain of Crush" for closing the IronMind #3 gripper, have lifted "the blob" (half of a 100lb York dumbell) and bent a 5.5" x 1/4" grade-5 bolt. All are pretty good feats as it goes in the hand strength world.
I've seen the "grip tools" at REI, and they are a joke. Soft balls, rubber bands, bit's of plastic. They do nothing besides get a slight "pump" going, and this does nothing for tendon strength. Nothing. It's good for easing over-trained forearms after a day of climbing, but nothing else.
There are a number of great exercises that build great tendon strength.
First off, block weights. Cut the end off of a 50, 60, 70, or 80lb hex-head dumbell, and then lift it over the top with a wide pinch grip. This exercise is the king of all hand-strength exercises, as it stresses the tendons from the tips of the fingers, through the hand, and develops thumb pinching power. Nothing compares.
There are also heavy-duty grippers from many stores like IronMind, Weight Lifters WareHouse, Robert Baraban and Heavy Grips. They are obviously, Huge grippers some 10 times harder than sports store grippers. The average sports store gripper takes about 30lbs to close, while the IronMind grippers take up to and over 300 lbs to close. Once you develop the tendon/muscle strength to close them, you're doing pretty well as it goes for hand strength.
There are plate pinches. Turn two 25lb plates, smooth side out, and pinch over the top. Add weight with a pipe through the middle until you can pinch 2 35's, and then some work up to 2x45's or 3 x 25's. Both are incredible feats.
There are also plate curls. Curling a plate with the palm flat against the smooth side, and the thumb over the edge. This causes a great stress on the wrist and finger tips. Curling a 35lb plate is great, and some can pull a 45 with years of training.
Personally, I add weight to the block weights until I max out on one weight, then go into a pyramid hang-board routine with most emphsis on the open and closed crip, after wich I do singles with the #3 gripper. It leaves the hand trashed, but I usually recover by the next day to do it again, usually working out 6 times a week.
There are also sledge hammer twists, where you grab a sledge hammer in the middle somewhere and twist it around or lever it in differnt movements to stimulate the wrist and elbow stabalizers. It's a perosnal favorite, but more specific to nail bending.
Again, I have to wonder why block weights and grippers arn't a corner stone of any climbers routine. I could never stop, even if I tried. The results are incredible.
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mucau
Feb 9, 2004, 7:53 PM
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The second half of hand strength training is active recover or "hand health". This is the training of dexterity, increasing circulation, and hitting all of the little stabalizers. These include:
Sand grabbing: 5 gallon bucket filled with sand, thrust in hand, squeeze, open, repeat. Gives a HUGE pump, and really works the extensors and side-to-side stabalizors that are neglected while climbing.
Dexterity balls: The chineese meditation balls or what not, only try doing them while holding them upside down, and rotate them i both directions. It puts a whole new spin on their training. Again, this stimulates circulation, the extensors, and side-to-side stabalizers.
Rod/Dowel Twirling: You know how you twirled a pencil in class? Try it with a 4' by 1" rod, with weight plates over each end like a barbell. Even with 1.25lb plates, this exercise is a killer. I've found this one to be the best for reall extensor strength and for the side-to-side stabalizers. I'm working up in weight on this one now, it's again changing my hands for the better.
These exercises continue to rolling up a towel with added weight on one end, with one hand. Newspaper crumbling, ect.
I always see people write about heavy wrist curls for climbing, but through my own experience with hand strength and climbing, I've noticed no carry over from those types of exercises to actual contact strength and endurance, even though those and the uselss little squeeze balls are always the first one's recommened.
Again, nobody trains the hands specifically for tendon strength? I find this odd....
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utahwiregate
Feb 9, 2004, 8:16 PM
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Mucau,
Very interesting thread.
I like the training ideas, will have to try some of them. I rememeber reading about training with sand in a 5 gal bucket somewhere, think it was in some body building rag from years back when I pumped 2 x a day.
Thankfully, I realized my time was better spent elsewhere, but I do try to lift two times a week (in between biking/running/climbing) to help keep my recovery time down.
Will have to try some of these routines!
-Gate
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nafod
Feb 9, 2004, 8:29 PM
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I find that going medium weight/high reps on the olympic lifts (clean, snatch, DB snatch) and deadlifts really works the grip, particularly on lowering the weight.
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rockprodigy
Feb 9, 2004, 8:43 PM
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Most climbers don't train at all. They are too lazy and undisciplined.
Some climbers think they train, but they don't really know what training is, they're really just screwing around, but they call it "training".
I train on a hangboard and campus board. I haven't tried any of the exercises you describe. They sound like they are better than nothing, but my impression is that they wouldn't be the optimal training for climbing.
The fact that you workout 6 times a week is extraordinary. I think the only way that could be possible is if the workouts aren't that intense or thorough. I typically need 2-3 days between hangboard or campus workouts.
The main problem with training strictly with weights is that you are not practicing climbing technique, so when do you do that? If your workouts are really intense, then you would need to rest between workouts and not climb.
Those exercises could be very helpful for finishing off a bouldering session. For example, boulder for 2-3 hours (working technique and strength), then do your hand strength lifts at the end of your bouldering session to ensure a thorough workout.
Like I said, I'm sure they are better than nothing, and in the case of being deployed...that is when you have nothing. My wife (USAF) was deployed for 3 months a couple years ago and she was able to scrounge enough plywood from the CE guys (being a chick helped) to build a small climbing wall and mount a hangboard in her tent. Of course, being in the Army, you guys probably don't even have tents....
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overlord
Feb 9, 2004, 8:47 PM
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mucau: great post.
but for an average climber, i dont think its doable becasue if you climb regullary (and most do) AND do these excercises youre really overtraining. but its a great way to build strength while you cant climb.
and i really like your "hand health" recovery excercises. i just use the dexterity balls ant they rock.
anyway, i prefer to climb and if i do train specifically, i just use my trusty hangboard.
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overlord
Feb 9, 2004, 9:07 PM
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and you REALLY should post this in technique and training :wink:
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biff
Feb 9, 2004, 10:09 PM
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I have been doing some of those exercises.
I do reverse wrist curls 10lbs (each hand) 3 sets 30 reps
regular wrist curls 15lbs each hand 3 set 30 reps.
Then I do plate pinches with 10lb weights for half an hour
and plate wrist curls with 10lbs plates for an hour or so.
As you can tell I am working on endurance mostly.
I was thinking of making odd grips with chains attached so you can add weight.
make things like pinches (with different angles) , palm sized balls, large cilynders, out of wood then weight them with 20 lbs or so to work different finger grips.
I was recenly at a Biomedical ENgineering confrence where there were quite a few studies presented on Bone Strengh (and I think it also applies to tendon strength) where they say that the sum of the stresses is what is important to build strenght:
so 100 repetitions of 1 lb stress is almost the same as doing 1 repetition with 100 lbs stress. I notice that when I do a major crimp, it feels like my bones/joints are going to break. by repeating stresses at lower strengths, but higher frequency (more repititions) you may get the same tendon and bone strenghtning effects, without the risk of injury. And you will also notice that your endurance increases aswell. (something that power trainign won't really do)
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climbhigh2005
Feb 10, 2004, 12:00 AM
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ClimbHigh2005 moved this thread from General to Technique & Training.
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mucau
Feb 10, 2004, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: I train on a hangboard and campus board. I haven't tried any of the exercises you describe. They sound like they are better than nothing, but my impression is that they wouldn't be the optimal training for climbing.
They arn't. Nothing beats rock. They are great for after climbing, or on days you can't make it to a wall.
In reply to: The fact that you workout 6 times a week is extraordinary. I think the only way that could be possible is if the workouts aren't that intense or thorough. I typically need 2-3 days between hangboard or campus workouts.
I train max weight, to failure, so that my hands are reduced to useless claws. I also use extensive recovery technqiues that I'll mention in a later thread. Most of all, I lift heavy 4-5 days a week and am in no way concerned with body weight right now. Most climbers don't eat enough, and don't lift heavy, both preventing quick recovery.
It's also a trend in the grip-training world (there is one) to train 6 day a week. Some one should also tell the Bulgarian weightlifting team that lifting 2-3 times a day, 6 days a week, to 90-100% weight is over training. I wonder why they dominate the sport...
In reply to: Those exercises could be very helpful for finishing off a bouldering session. For example, boulder for 2-3 hours (working technique and strength), then do your hand strength lifts at the end of your bouldering session to ensure a thorough workout.
That's probably a great idea. Again though, as you said, not many people are up for serious training off the wall. Personaly, I like to pre-fatique my hands, and then use the hang board.
In reply to: The main problem with training strictly with weights is that you are not practicing climbing technique, so when do you do that? If your workouts are really intense, then you would need to rest between workouts and not climb.
Climbing takes much longer to recover from. Training hand strength doesn't. Climbing always leaves me tweaked and sore. Block weights and grippers are controlled. I'm in Georiga right now, so sandstone and a wall some 90 miles away are the only options. I am 25 days away from a 37 day backpacking/climbing tour of Utah/Arizona/New Mexico, and a move to southen Arizona. I'll finally get back to the real stuff.
What's a tent?
-Eric
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fastestgun
Feb 10, 2004, 1:53 AM
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Mucau, how hard do you climb/boulder?
I'm actually in the camp that thinks grip strength/weight ratio is THE most important indicator of how hard you climb. It seems that when I really analyze the moves that I cannot yet do, my lack of grip strength is the reason.
But, I also think that grip strength is HIGHLY specific and I'm suspicious that any workout with weights transfers to rock.
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mucau
Feb 10, 2004, 2:12 AM
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I am currently transitioning between twice a month and twice a week, based off of me moving from GA to AZ. Work and family makes more climbing than that problematic.
There are other lifts, like a quarter with a hole in it, attached to a small beaner, attached to a loading pin, where you work up to max weight. That combined with specific small pinches on the rock results in a huge carry over to specific hand/tendon strength.
-Eric
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dirtineye
Feb 10, 2004, 4:37 AM
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Yeah, but, "What grade are you climbing?", is what I think he asked.
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legless
Feb 10, 2004, 5:50 AM
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very interesting stuff...but like the others, i would never give up a good climbing session even in a gym to train grip strength...
for me, training is what you do when circumstances prevent you from doing what you want to be doing...(thats why the hangboard in my room gets much less use than i originally anticipated).
of course sometimes the training becomes an end in itself...which in your case it definitely has...
by the way, congrats on closing #3....STIFF!
you could probably snap someones wrist if you wanted...
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 10, 2004, 6:22 AM
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To mucau
What you are describing is called absolute strength. The point of it is to strengthen the targeted muscle fibers to get them stronger, under no time constraint.
Unfortunately climbing(at your limit) only relies on absolute strength when the move can be done statically or once you are actually holding the grip. The most important strength is CONTACT STRENGTH (AKA plyometric Strength). The ability to recruit the needed fiber contraction to hold yourself with X amount of time. (Strength-Weight Ratio concept is part of this, the less you weight and/or the stronger you are, the faster you can recruit those needed muscle fibers)
To boil it down in simple terms, your type of training builds raw strength while contact/plyometric strength is refined strength. Both are needed, in my opinion the latter is of more importance to elite climbers, while beginners need raw strength and intermediate climbers need a little of both.
Heres some math since whatever I climb, grade wise is too subjective
Weight 126lbs
Absolute Strength (Pinch Test ) 144lbs
Plyometric Strength (at .05 of a sec) 35lbs
Weight should be as low as possible and the last two numbers as high as possible.
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danabart
Feb 10, 2004, 3:47 PM
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Mucau;
Have you seen the grip page at cyberpump.com? You might find it interesting.
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davidji
Feb 10, 2004, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: Heres some math since whatever I climb, grade wise is too subjective Weight 126lbs Absolute Strength (Pinch Test ) 144lbs Plyometric Strength (at .05 of a sec) 35lbs |
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davidji
Feb 10, 2004, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: by the way, congrats on closing #3....STIFF! |
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