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USnavy
Apr 12, 2012, 11:48 AM
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I remember reading an article by the AAI saying that they do not recommend using the bowline to tie in with. They went on to say that there is a variation of the bowline that offers the security advantages of the figure eight with the untying advantages of the bowline. But I cannot find a photo of the knot, or the actual name of the knot.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 12, 2012, 1:01 PM)
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2012, 12:20 PM
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USnavy wrote: I remember reading an article by the AAI saying that they do not recommend using the bowline to tie in with. They went on to say that there is a figure eight version of the bowline that offers the security advantages of the figure eight with the untying advantages of the bowline. But I cannot find a photo of the knot, or the actual name of the knot.
Figure eight version of the bowline.
In what sense?
I suspect this is going to get some interesting responses.
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USnavy
Apr 12, 2012, 1:00 PM
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shockabuku wrote: USnavy wrote: I remember reading an article by the AAI saying that they do not recommend using the bowline to tie in with. They went on to say that there is a figure eight version of the bowline that offers the security advantages of the figure eight with the untying advantages of the bowline. But I cannot find a photo of the knot, or the actual name of the knot. Figure eight version of the bowline. In what sense? I suspect this is going to get some interesting responses.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 12, 2012, 1:01 PM)
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granite_grrl
Apr 12, 2012, 1:15 PM
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Do you mean a double bowline? That's the standard when it comes to using the bowline when tying in.
The only variations I've seen in the knot is where people tie their backup knots.
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2012, 1:22 PM
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USnavy wrote: shockabuku wrote: USnavy wrote: I remember reading an article by the AAI saying that they do not recommend using the bowline to tie in with. They went on to say that there is a figure eight version of the bowline that offers the security advantages of the figure eight with the untying advantages of the bowline. But I cannot find a photo of the knot, or the actual name of the knot. Figure eight version of the bowline. In what sense? I suspect this is going to get some interesting responses. Well it was not necessary a figure eight bowline. Rather, it was a variation of the bowline that provided the security of the figure eight, or so the article claimed. The AAI went on about how the variation was the only acceptable way to tie in using the bowline, or something to that extent.
My guess would be this:
Ties like a bowline but leave lots of extra and then rethread, conceptually like you would rethread a figure eight. Functionally it's the same knot as a bowline-on-a-bight.
Here's some discussion about it (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2514726#2514726) and there was an active thread about it not too long ago but I can't find it.
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amarius
Apr 12, 2012, 1:52 PM
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I don't think that this is the answer you were looking for, but worth taking a look anyways
An Analysis of Bowlines
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lena_chita
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Apr 12, 2012, 2:08 PM
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Re-threaded double bowline (by re-threaded I mean that the end of the rope goes back through the harness again) finished with double fisherman.
This link has the picture of re-threaded single bowline (scroll down the page to "harness knots"), but the backup knot is not shown): http://www.kong.it/lexis02.htm In a sense, this is the same as bowline on a bight, just like double figure 8 is the same knot as figure 8 on a bight:
You can also do a "yosemite finish" to the bowline (re-thread it without going through the harness the second time, so the rope end ends us sticking up from the knot, not down, and then finish up with the double fisherman. Scroll down to yosemite bowline, again, double fisherman finish not shown.
http://blank005.tripod.com/camping/howtoknots.html
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lena_chita
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Apr 12, 2012, 2:10 PM
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shockabuku wrote: My guess would be this: Ties like a bowline but leave lots of extra and then rethread, conceptually like you would rethread a figure eight. Functionally it's the same knot as a bowline-on-a-bight.
Yes. And a better picture than the one I linked.
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2012, 2:16 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Re-threaded double bowline (by re-threaded I mean that the end of the rope goes back through the harness again) finished with double fisherman. This link has the picture of re-threaded single bowline (scroll down the page to "harness knots"), but the backup knot is not shown): http://www.kong.it/lexis02.htm In a sense, this is the same as bowline on a bight, just like double figure 8 is the same knot as figure 8 on a bight: You can also do a "yosemite finish" to the bowline (re-thread it without going through the harness the second time, so the rope end ends us sticking up from the knot, not down, and then finish up with the double fisherman. Scroll down to yosemite bowline, again, double fisherman finish not shown. http://blank005.tripod.com/camping/howtoknots.html
The terminology surrounding the bowline is very confusing.
I understand a double bowline to be this:
Which has two coils around the finishing bight.
Whereas the bowline on a bight/rethreaded bowline is this:
Which has two loops around the "anchor", whatever that is.
I can only imagine that a rethreaded double bowline would have two loops around the "anchor" with four coils around the bight - something I have never seen.
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2012, 2:17 PM
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lena_chita wrote: shockabuku wrote: My guess would be this: [image]http://www.mountainproject.com/images/66/2/107476602_large_5a7402.jpg[/image] Ties like a bowline but leave lots of extra and then rethread, conceptually like you would rethread a figure eight. Functionally it's the same knot as a bowline-on-a-bight. Yes. And a better picture than the one I linked.
Ok.
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lena_chita
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Apr 12, 2012, 2:25 PM
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shockabuku wrote: lena_chita wrote: Re-threaded double bowline (by re-threaded I mean that the end of the rope goes back through the harness again) finished with double fisherman. This link has the picture of re-threaded single bowline (scroll down the page to "harness knots"), but the backup knot is not shown): http://www.kong.it/lexis02.htm In a sense, this is the same as bowline on a bight, just like double figure 8 is the same knot as figure 8 on a bight: You can also do a "yosemite finish" to the bowline (re-thread it without going through the harness the second time, so the rope end ends us sticking up from the knot, not down, and then finish up with the double fisherman. Scroll down to yosemite bowline, again, double fisherman finish not shown. http://blank005.tripod.com/camping/howtoknots.htmlThe terminology surrounding the bowline is very confusing. I understand a double bowline to be this: Which has two coils around the finishing bight. Whereas the bowline on a bight/rethreaded bowline is this: Which has two loops around the "anchor", whatever that is. I can only imagine that a rethreaded double bowline would have two loops around the "anchor" with four coils around the bight - something I have never seen.
When I re-thread the rope through the harness, after tying the double bowline, and come back to the knot, I do not trace the entire knot again, I just put the rope back through the "loop" part, and then tie double fisherman, so there are no 4 coils around the bight. Technically it shouldn't be called re-threaded, because the knot itself is just double bowline, the "re-thread" part is through the harness.
I need to tie it and take a picture, I guess.
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Marylandclimber
Apr 12, 2012, 3:25 PM
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Just tie a figure eight people! You can't get any better!
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LostinMaine
Apr 12, 2012, 4:28 PM
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Marylandclimber wrote: Just tie a figure eight people! You can't get any better!
Until you fall on it and can't get it undone. Why the resistance to a rethreaded bowline? Once I shifted to it, I never understood why it didn't catch on.
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jamesnater
Apr 12, 2012, 4:45 PM
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I've never NOT been able to untie a figure eight. I can't really describe it through text, but it's super easy, even after a huge whipper.
I've even had to undo friend's knots for them, showing them how, now they too have no problem untying figure eights after big falls, and after being super pumped too.
It takes like 4 steps that takes less than 5 seconds to loosen the knot, then it's just a matter of untying.
(This post was edited by jamesnater on Apr 12, 2012, 4:48 PM)
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csproul
Apr 12, 2012, 4:54 PM
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Knot (un)tying advice from the guy that brought you this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...6;page=unread#unread
You'll forgive me if I take the advice with a grain of salt? But just in case, please post your method for super-easy figure 8 untying, I'd love to learn something new.
(This post was edited by csproul on Apr 12, 2012, 4:55 PM)
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bearbreeder
Apr 12, 2012, 5:03 PM
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to untie the 8 just do a yos finish ... and then twist the knot in yr hands until strands work themselves loose
sharma uses an 8 ... he falls more than anyone else here
what people use is their own choice .. but its a fallacy to say you cant untie one after falling
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granite_grrl
Apr 12, 2012, 5:15 PM
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jamesnater wrote: I've never NOT been able to untie a figure eight. I can't really describe it through text, but it's super easy, even after a huge whipper. I've even had to undo friend's knots for them, showing them how, now they too have no problem untying figure eights after big falls, and after being super pumped too. It takes like 4 steps that takes less than 5 seconds to loosen the knot, then it's just a matter of untying.
Does your 4 step program look like this?
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healyje
Apr 12, 2012, 5:33 PM
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What I do - have never used a figure 8 outside of visiting gyms that require them. To be blunt figure 8s are more a lowest common denominator deal and suck as an actual tie in knot.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 12, 2012, 5:37 PM)
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MFC
Apr 12, 2012, 5:41 PM
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A bowline with a Yosemite finish incorporates a "figure 8" into the knot.
I have attached an illustration from the "Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. - Safety Manual" clearly showing the 8 incorporated into the finishing knot.
They show the knot being tied with a bowline on a bight but the knot is tied identically if tying only a regular bowline with this finish.
Is this possibly what you were looking for?
(This post was edited by MFC on Apr 12, 2012, 6:03 PM)
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bowline using an 8.jpg
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shockabuku
Apr 12, 2012, 5:54 PM
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MFC wrote: A bowline with a Yosemite finish incorporates a "figure 8" into the knot. I have attached an illustrtaion from the "Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. - Safety Manual" clearly showing the 8 incorporated into the finishing knot. They show the knot being tied with a bowline on a bight but the knot is tied identically if tying only a regular bowline with this finish. Is this possibly what you were looking for? 
Good grief - that's a bulky knot.
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healyje
Apr 12, 2012, 6:20 PM
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Bowline with a yos finish - can't think of a worse possible knot than this - the worst of both worlds. Why bother with tying a bowline if you are then going to obfuscate / confuse the visual appearance of the knot with that finish. I'd rather use a figure 8 than a bowline with a yos finish and I really dislike the figure 8.
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csproul
Apr 12, 2012, 6:36 PM
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healyje wrote: [image]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/6299Figure_Eight_4.JPG[/image] What I do - have never used a figure 8 outside of visiting gyms that require them. To be blunt figure 8s are more a lowest common denominator deal and suck as an actual tie in knot.
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csproul
Apr 12, 2012, 6:49 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: to untie the 8 just do a yos finish ... and then twist the knot in yr hands until strands work themselves loose sharma uses an 8 ... he falls more than anyone else here what people use is their own choice .. but its a fallacy to say you cant untie one after falling
It is also rope dependent. Some ropes with different dry coatings/diameters/stiffness are just harder to untie. Bottom line is I don't really care what Sharma/Croft/Bachar does or does not do. I'm not them and I know from personal experience that a figure 8 can be very difficult to untie and that a bowline is not.
(This post was edited by csproul on Apr 12, 2012, 6:53 PM)
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bearbreeder
Apr 12, 2012, 7:14 PM
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csproul wrote: I suppose if I had Sharma's strength, I could easily untie any knot too...but alas, I am weak and untying my knot after a big fall is more difficult with an 8. Besisdes, he probably has a swarm of groupies waiting to untie his knot for him! It is also rope dependent. Some ropes with different dry coatings/diameters/stiffness are just harder to untie. Bottom line is I don't really care what Sharma/Croft/Bachar does or does not do. I'm not them and I know from personal experience that a figure 8 can be very difficult to untie and that a bowline is not.
the bottom line is that plenty of people use fig 8s just fine ... and fall on em ... and untie em ...
what you use is up to you ... but then RCers tend to think that their way is the ONLY way ... everything else sucks
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csproul
Apr 12, 2012, 7:28 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: csproul wrote: I suppose if I had Sharma's strength, I could easily untie any knot too...but alas, I am weak and untying my knot after a big fall is more difficult with an 8. Besisdes, he probably has a swarm of groupies waiting to untie his knot for him! It is also rope dependent. Some ropes with different dry coatings/diameters/stiffness are just harder to untie. Bottom line is I don't really care what Sharma/Croft/Bachar does or does not do. I'm not them and I know from personal experience that a figure 8 can be very difficult to untie and that a bowline is not. the bottom line is that plenty of people use fig 8s just fine ... and fall on em ... and untie em ... what you use is up to you ... but then RCers tend to think that their way is the ONLY way ... everything else sucks
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