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bumblie
Feb 16, 2005, 1:31 PM
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Maybe it's just my personal preference, but I've always thought the real deal in rockclimbing is being out on the sharpend. Even in sportclimbing or bouldering, if you're risking more than a few feet (of rope stretch), you're pushing yourself. There's a distinct difference between a "rockclimber" and someone who goes rockclimbing. It's who you are versus an occassional pasttime.
Understandable, there is a period in which all beginners just top rope. We all had that time where TRing was the most we could deal with. Most real climbers move on to the riskier side of this activities. However, I've met some "climbers" who've been climbing a while (say, over 5 years), read every article in the mags, have all the gear and can talk the talk, yet they don't lead.
So, at what point is a noob no loonger a noob, but just a poseur?
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jammer
Feb 16, 2005, 1:38 PM
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A poseur can be anyone who wants to impress someone. It's not a step in the chain of events ... even the best climbers have egos and enjoy it when others are impressed with their accomplishments.
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mshore
Feb 16, 2005, 1:40 PM
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Quite simple really........
1.) Climb for your own reasons or because it is simply fun and...
2.) Never talk shit.
First, you never know who is listening and second, you will never be accused of being a noob or a poser.
Who cares who is a, "real," climber and who isn't. I only care if I send the route, have fun, and get a good photo.
We do a ridiculous sport that contributes nothing to our exsistence. We might as well be ants except that we have the brain function to stop and smell the roses. So in the grand scheme of things - does it really matter to you? Is it that important?
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 16, 2005, 1:42 PM
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I don't have a problem with their choice unless they are passing themselves off as this risk-taking crazy man to "non-climbers" if all they do is tr in a gym. If you want to toprope exclusively, then make sure you represent yourself as such. I definitely think that some people call themselves a "climber" because they think it's cool. I certainly think climbing is cool, but I climb for myself. I am not totally happy unless I am on the sharp end, both trad and sport. Yet, I am not into Alpine. People find out I ma climber and they ask if I want to do Everest, and I say "NO f---in' way!"
Josh
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scubasnyder
Feb 16, 2005, 1:48 PM
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i dont understand why...
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jeep4evr
Feb 16, 2005, 2:37 PM
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Im a straight up hardcore deathdefying mutha on the sharp end doing insane 5.15c on my Metolius Simulator.
WUT U GOT??!?
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leinosaur
Feb 16, 2005, 2:56 PM
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In reply to: Who cares who is a, "real," climber and who isn't.
poseurs do!
right?
a noob becomes a poseur when he worries about whether he's a "real" climber or not according to other people's standards?
somethin' like that I guess
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wormly81
Feb 16, 2005, 3:01 PM
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I think the real question is why do you care so much about how other people represent their climbing. Someone can talk all the shit in the world but when your standing next to them its blatantly obvious whose got the skills/experiences to make them a true climber or not. Non climbers don't understand jack shit about our sport and never will so its not like someone can sit there and explain the intricacies of risk tolerance and different types of climbing.
Also, take a look at it from this perspective. No matter how hard you ever climb there will always be someone better than you. Do you think they are wondering things like "oh so if someone doesnt climb 5.12 trad by their 5th year then I think they have gone from newbie to poseur."
I can agree we all know someone who deserves no respect as a climber (with a couple thousand dollars of gear they cant use). Feel bad for them because they are living a lie and look like a fool to everyone that has any sort of perspective.
Jeff
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markc
Feb 16, 2005, 3:01 PM
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I think your working definitions are a bit different from mine.
I think of a poseur as someone who misrepresents himself. This can be done in a number of ways in relation to climbing. One would be the person who tags along with climbers once in a blue moon and still tells everyone he's a climber. A bit lame, but it doesn't really bother me. A friend of a friend did that with me. When I asked what sort of climbing he was into, if he had any trad experience, etc, all I recieved was a glazed look. Then he said he knew some really well-known European climbers. Um, okay...
Another would be someone who misrepresents his climbing abilities or experiences. This is far more subtle. Maybe they just bump up their redpoint level in conversation, spray about life-threatening situations they've put themselves in without realizing it, or plan goals they have no real means of accomplishing to impress others. This only bothers me when they won't shut up after a couple hours or if the person is putting me in danger.
If you just toprope, you're still a climber in my book. I respect people who find a level of risk they're willing to accept and don't give into any macho crap about what they should be doing. They are still climbing, just not leading. Ergo, they are a climber. If that person has a rack worthy of aid climbing and no desire to lead, then they may also be a poseur. If you represent yourself honestly at whatever level you currently occupy, you're never deserving of the poseur label. Methinks you're being a bit harsh.
mark
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mistertyler
Feb 16, 2005, 3:09 PM
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In reply to: Maybe it's just my personal preference, but I've always thought the real deal in rockclimbing is being out on the sharpend. Even in sportclimbing or bouldering, if you're risking more than a few feet (of rope stretch), you're pushing yourself. There's a distinct difference between a "rockclimber" and someone who goes rockclimbing. It's who you are versus an occassional pasttime. Understandable, there is a period in which all beginners just top rope. We all had that time where TRing was the most we could deal with. Most real climbers move on to the riskier side of this activities. However, I've met some "climbers" who've been climbing a while (say, over 5 years), read every article in the mags, have all the gear and can talk the talk, yet they don't lead. So, at what point is a noob no loonger a noob, but just a poseur?
If the father and breadwinner of a family with 2 infants chooses to only toprope because he doesn't want to risk serious consequences (personal and financial) to his family should something happen to him, is he a poseur? The answer is quite obvious, and to judge the "value" of the style in which someone chooses to pursue climbing is pointless.
There is no "real deal" in climbing. Climbing is an activity that people choose to do for many different reasons, and all of these reasons are personal.
Is road-biking poseurish because it's less risky than downhill? How about tennis? Let's create a new style of tennis where we put 20 rattlesnakes onto the court with the players. Will that make it better than the original form of tennis, which is less risky than the new? Same thing, same faulty logic.
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crackmd
Feb 16, 2005, 3:24 PM
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A few years back I took a job at a hospital at the same time as another "climber" took a similar job there. The hospital administrative types were intrigued by the idea of climbers working for them and wanted to write an article in the quarterly hospital newsletter about us. The other "climber" was very excited about this while I did not share in her excitement but was willing to go along. She came up to me one Tuesday at work and asked if the coming Saturday would work for me to drive 15 minutes out of town and be photographed hanging off the side of a 20-foot tall boulder (with no problems on it). Well, I had already made plans to go climbing in Yosemite (2-hrs away) and was not about to cancel them to get a few photos taken. Just then a light bulb went off in my head; why not come up to Yosemite and photograph us there? From the pained look on her face when I suggested this I knew she was not into it. In fact, it had been a few years since she had actually touched rock (real or plastic) and had no intention to restart at that time.
The story ends with me having a great day in Yosemite and her getting photographed and written about in the hospital newsletter. It seems like everyone involved was satisfied with how it turned out. This event however does exemplify to me the definition of "poser".
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dynosore
Feb 16, 2005, 3:29 PM
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bumblie wrote
In reply to: There's a distinct difference between a "rockclimber" and someone who goes rockclimbing
I rockclimb (not as often as many, I'm sure). So I'm a rockclimber. Get it?
Puffs chest up "I'm a real climber, nay, a real man, because I lead climb, and climb more often than you"
If this is what defines your life, I feel sorry for you.
According to your logic, the only "real" climbers are free soloists, because they take the maximum possible risk. Free soloing in lightning storms on a climb at least 3 grades harder than your best redpoint, blindfolded & one arm tied behind your back. All others are posers.
In reply to: Let's create a new style of tennis where we put 20 rattlesnakes onto the court with the players.
I might actually watch a set or 2 if they did this. Or polar bears in the ice skating rink :P
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bumblie
Feb 16, 2005, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, at what point is a noob no loonger a noob, but just a poseur? If the father and breadwinner of a family with 2 infants chooses to only toprope because he doesn't want to risk serious consequences (personal and financial) to his family should something happen to him, is he a poseur? The answer is quite obvious, and to judge the "value" of the style in which someone chooses to pursue climbing is pointless. There is no "real deal" in climbing. Climbing is an activity that people choose to do for many different reasons, and all of these reasons are personal. Is road-biking poseurish because it's less risky than downhill? How about tennis? Let's create a new style of tennis where we put 20 rattlesnakes onto the court with the players. Will that make it better than the original form of tennis, which is less risky than the new? Same thing, same faulty logic.
You can dress it up anyway you like or provide obtuse analogies to try making a point, but we both know poseurism is real. :wink:
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mshore
Feb 16, 2005, 4:40 PM
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bumblie -
your profile says:
6750 posts in under 2 years. (post whore)
how in the world does someone have that much to say about climbing without spraying at some point?!
not being a dick but that is crazy! do you work on this website as a mod or something?
holy fucking wow!
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caughtinside
Feb 16, 2005, 5:06 PM
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I tend to agree with bumblie's perspective, but will add that I don't really care what they're doing. If you want to keep those training wheels on and only TR, you're the one who's missing out. Same is true for people who only boulder.
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cracklover
Feb 16, 2005, 5:11 PM
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Lemme tell you about my barber.
She's not the same kind of climber I am, but she can call herself whatever she likes. She climbs regularly in the gym, and when I said she should try getting outside sometime she made it clear that it wasn't for her. She and her crew like poking fun of each other as they fall off 5.8s, and giggling about boys. I'd like to be able to gush to her about my plans for this spring, but when I try she just looks at me like I'm crazy and says "I'd never do that." She has no interest in learning better technique, or even going to another gym with higher walls. She tried the other gym once, and won't go back - "The holds there roughed up my hands" She's happy with doing what she's doing.
Personally, I think that's just fine. Better, in fact, than someone who thinks "Well, I wanna be a climber, so I have to go outside, 'cause that's what climbers do" even though what they really like is climbing in the gym. Be honest with yourself and those around you, and if that means they don't think you're a "real" climber, fuck 'em.
GO
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bumblie
Feb 16, 2005, 5:13 PM
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Ah yes. The ad hominem attack. How trite. :roll:
A more accurate label would be "community post whore".
As far as any sprayage about climbing, how about finding a single post where I've "posed". Conjecture is so much easier than actually providing proof.
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abouttopeel
Feb 16, 2005, 5:17 PM
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In bumblie's defense (did I really just type that?), I don't believe that he said there was anything wrong with TRing. He simply asked the question of when someone who ONLY TR's but has all the other gear and presents themselves as an all around climber becomes a poseur.
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mistertyler
Feb 16, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: Ah yes. The ad hominem attack. How trite. :roll: A more accurate label would be "community post whore". As far as any sprayage about climbing, how about finding a single post where I've "posed". Conjecture is so much easier than actually providing proof.
Maybe this will clear things up for you, bumblie:
From Dictionary.com:
Poseur
-------
One who affects a particular attribute, attitude, or identity to impress or influence others.
The primary premise of your argument is that the style in which one chooses to climb affects whether or not they're a poseur. Your premise is wrong based on your misdefinition of the word "poseur", and your conclusion, therefore, is necessarily false. I even believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that your argument can be proven wrong mathematically.
Poseurism is real; it just has nothing to do with what you wrote in your original post.
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maybeone
Feb 16, 2005, 5:21 PM
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Of course there are posers! But it has nothing to do with how they climb. It's how they do everything else. No one is a poser when their all by themselves on the rock (even in the gym). I'm sure there will be 10 pages by the weekend because everybody has their opinion. But maybe the solution lies in keeping your opinion to yourself.
I envision an old-school "real rockclimber" visting his "poser" grandkid. He manages to stay awake through the puffery and boasts about grand gym conquests, is introduced to RC.com and stumbles across this thread. What I think is funny is that this guy might have all the solutions but doesn't really care about the problem. He loves his grandkid, poser or not, and will try to help enlighten him to keep him from being despised.
The saddest characteristic of "real rockclimbers" is their aggression towards others. Was everyone this mean to you when you started climbing? If so, I'm sorry about traumatic life. Go move to the crags and name your new routes after your imaginary friends. But I think most people had at least a few people who put up with their big mouth and small muscles and helped them get better. I am a youth minister and regularly introduce kids to climbing. I don't misrepresent and act like I invented it. And when they start talking tough after their first V1, I help them understand the bigger picture. I don't mock them and I don't gang up on them with people who climb better.
The next time you see a noob, ask them to climb with you and prevent them from becoming a poser. The next time you see a poser, ask them to climb with you and prevent them from getting beat down at the gym. But this "I climb harder and have more posts on RC.com than you" attitude will not help them change and will not get them to quit climbing. It will just make you hate them more.
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caughtinside
Feb 16, 2005, 5:26 PM
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Cracklover's post was interesting.
But I'd ask this: Is an interest sustainable, when there's no growth? She doesn't care about getting better, she doesn't want to go outside. She just wants the same thing, over and over. How long will this hold interest?
Maybe it's just personality types. I feel like I have to be moving forward in some direction. Either getting better, or climbing at a new area. Likewise, I'm in a challenging career. Sometimes its a pain, but it keeps me intellectually stimulated. I don't think I could cut hair for more than a few months. But that's just me.
Progress People! 8^)
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billcoe_
Feb 16, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: So, at what point is a noob no loonger a noob, but just a poseur?
Mshore answered this for me. However, being a poser may not be all bad, I know a guy who seems to prefer going to the bar with gear hanging off his pack, rather than climbing, and it's very effective in trolling for women.
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bumblie
Feb 16, 2005, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: The primary premise of your argument is that the style in which one chooses to climb affects whether or not they're a poseur.
In reply to: Your premise is wrong based on your misdefinition of the word "poseur"
In reply to: Poseurism is real; it just has nothing to do with what you wrote in your original post.
In reply to: I even believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that your argument can be proven wrong mathematically. |
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usmc_2tothetop
Feb 16, 2005, 6:24 PM
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I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who climb for different reasons. Rather it is for them or others.
There are lots of people who climb and don't give a dam about others. Just as long as they are happy climbing.
I'm sure there are no set words or standards as to what seperates a Noob and a Posuer. So this thread could generate thousands of opinions.
I would agree Bumblie that if someone were to have a full rack but they never lead. One might question why them climb. Who knows.
From the looks of it I would think that you would have a good idea of how to seperate the 2. When I meet other climbers and hikers I see different levels of passions in their eyes.
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bad_lil_kitty
Feb 16, 2005, 7:08 PM
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Sticks and stones may break my bones
But names will never hurt me....
;)
jk, BumBum
Perhaps at times I am a bit naive and/or just don't think about some things as much as others. I suppose growing up and having peers scribbling "you're weird but cool" on the yearly year book every freakn' year had something to do w/ my ability to phase people's comments about me out.
It's interesting though as I am often introduced as the Den Mother, and/or Socialite of my climbing group, it never really bothered me -- until someone made a comment that they never saw me climb - to which I replied, that's cause you've never climbed w/ me nor asked me to climb.
Grant it, I'm not hot shit but I can certainly pull my own and will learn to lead and hopefully through the support and my own confidence take the lead...
However, if others are 'deemed' posers and are just down right annoying - I just tend to stay away and not do the whole labeling thing. And hell, I like mountain biking but I am not terribly good at it - then again, I like trail biking/road but I'm not a hardcore fixed gear or ss gal. LOL Last year while at a stop (on a trail) I literally stood and fell over... LOL
Man, I think I just rambled again too much!
blk
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