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robdotcalm
Mar 11, 2005, 6:54 PM
Post #26 of 48
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In reply to: Here are the reasons you may want to have this feature: 1. Rapping and making sure the ends are down, 2. Leading and making sure you have enough rope to get to a belay, 3. Sport climbing and making sure your belayer understands how long the route is so he doesnt drop your ass when lowering off... 4. Aesthetics, some people may think it is cool....
In regards to #3. The belayer should be tied into the end of the rope. Period. No, if, ands, or buts.
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c-money
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Mar 11, 2005, 7:01 PM
Post #27 of 48
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Re: BiPattern: Worth the extra dough?
It is worth it to me.
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sspssp
Mar 11, 2005, 7:24 PM
Post #28 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: Here are the reasons you may want to have this feature: 1. Rapping and making sure the ends are down, 2. Leading and making sure you have enough rope to get to a belay, 3. Sport climbing and making sure your belayer understands how long the route is so he doesnt drop your ass when lowering off... 4. Aesthetics, some people may think it is cool.... In regards to #3. The belayer should be tied into the end of the rope. Period. No, if, ands, or buts.
Yup, that may be true, but lowering people off the ends of the rope happens every year. Just read Accidents in North America Mountaineering. If everyone climbed with bi-color ropes, a few less people would die each year.
If everybody paid attention and did what they were supposed (no, ifs, ands, or buts), we wouldn't need seatbelts either.
For the bi-color, does that mean it's worth it? Well, I realize that is a judgement call. If nobody climbed, there would considerably more deaths prevented each year. $20 is, I think, worth it, but as I mentioned before, it really has a lot to do with finances.
As far as marking the middle of the rope with tape, I routinely throw out this warning: tape can come off in a sticky ball and freeze up your rap device. Pretty bad scenerio when you are rapping in the rain. It can also slip. I met a guy in Yosemite who had a bad limp because the tape marking the "middle" of his rope slid about 20 feet without him realizing it [in].
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chanceboarder
Mar 11, 2005, 7:51 PM
Post #29 of 48
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In reply to: Yup, that may be true, but lowering people off the ends of the rope happens every year. Just read Accidents in North America Mountaineering. If everyone climbed with bi-color ropes, a few less people would die each year. If everybody paid attention and did what they were supposed (no, ifs, ands, or buts), we wouldn't need seatbelts either. For the bi-color, does that mean it's worth it? Well, I realize that is a judgement call. If nobody climbed, there would considerably more deaths prevented each year. $20 is, I think, worth it, but as I mentioned before, it really has a lot to do with finances. As far as marking the middle of the rope with tape, I routinely throw out this warning: tape can come off in a sticky ball and freeze up your rap device. Pretty bad scenerio when you are rapping in the rain. It can also slip. I met a guy in Yosemite who had a bad limp because the tape marking the "middle" of his rope slid about 20 feet without him realizing it [in].
In reply to: In reply to: Here are the reasons you may want to have this feature: 1. Rapping and making sure the ends are down, 2. Leading and making sure you have enough rope to get to a belay, 3. Sport climbing and making sure your belayer understands how long the route is so he doesnt drop your ass when lowering off... 4. Aesthetics, some people may think it is cool.... In regards to #3. The belayer should be tied into the end of the rope. Period. No, if, ands, or buts. |
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trillium
Mar 11, 2005, 8:34 PM
Post #30 of 48
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There is no question in my mind: Bi-color is well worth the extra money. It also would have been well worth the money last year for an experienced climbing aquaintence of mine who was carried away with a broken back on a stretcher from the cliff bottom. His accident should not have happened, and wouldn't have had he owned a bi-color rope. :(
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sspssp
Mar 11, 2005, 8:53 PM
Post #31 of 48
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In reply to: bi-color ropes don't prevent people from rapping off the end of them or lowing their partner off and dropping them because they ran out of rope. just because your rope changes color in the middle doesn't mean its magically going to prevent any mishaps, paying attention to what you are doing and having good back ups like tying into the other end of the rope or tying a knot in the ends of the rope so it doesn't go through the belay device prevents accidents like that from happening.
No, it won't prevent all accidents, and I never said it would. It would help prevent a belayer from lowering someone off the end because it easy to see if more than half the rope is out. If you can see both bi-colors, its safe to lower. If you can't see both, it is not. Yes, it still relies on a belayer paying attention and it is nothing more than an additional safety backup in addition to everything else like putting a knot in the end (I see extremely few climbers who actually tie in when doing one pitch sport/cragging routes).
That said, I still believe 100% that if everyone climbed with a bi-color rope, there would be a few less deaths each year in the "stupid mistakes" category.
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chanceboarder
Mar 11, 2005, 9:24 PM
Post #32 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: bi-color ropes don't prevent people from rapping off the end of them or lowing their partner off and dropping them because they ran out of rope. just because your rope changes color in the middle doesn't mean its magically going to prevent any mishaps, paying attention to what you are doing and having good back ups like tying into the other end of the rope or tying a knot in the ends of the rope so it doesn't go through the belay device prevents accidents like that from happening. No, it won't prevent all accidents, and I never said it would. It would help prevent a belayer from lowering someone off the end because it easy to see if more than half the rope is out. If you can see both bi-colors, its safe to lower. If you can't see both, it is not. Yes, it still relies on a belayer paying attention and it is nothing more than an additional safety backup in addition to everything else like putting a knot in the end (I see extremely few climbers who actually tie in when doing one pitch sport/cragging routes). That said, I still believe 100% that if everyone climbed with a bi-color rope, there would be a few less deaths each year in the "stupid mistakes" category.
and you're probably right if more people had a bi-color rope there might be a few less "stupid mistakes" who knows, but i don't believe thou that everyone should have to climb on bi-color ropes in order to prevent those "stupid mistakes" from happening. there have been several people on this thread that have stated like its a safety feature that a bi-color rope would have prevented an accident from happening to someone. maybe it could have, i don't know but its been my experience that those kinds of accidents are due more to pilot error then equipment failure. its just my opinion but not everyone needs a bi-color rope, and i think everyone has to judge for themselves taking into consideration the type of climbing that they do as to whether or not its really worth it to go with a bi-color rope or a rope with just the middle marked or a rope with no markings at all.
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mtman
Mar 11, 2005, 9:59 PM
Post #33 of 48
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to play devils advocate a bi color rope gives you a false sense of security just because you know that you have the mid point dose not mean that you rappel is safe or that you are not going to drop a climber. and that might make people not tie knots at the end of the rope because they thing that they are good because they have the midpoint. you should ALWAYS BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SELF saying that if you had a bi-color rope would have saved my friends life or prevented an injury is diverting the blame, there are no if and but in climbing there is only being in control and NOT being in control. bi color ropes can help prevent accidents but if you are in control and tie knots at the end of you rope or what ever you have to do to stay in control, is the BEST WAY TO PREVENT ACCIDENTS PERIOD.
sorry for the rant but people should not relight 100% on you gear you should relight on your self 100% of the time
mtman
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112
Mar 11, 2005, 10:17 PM
Post #34 of 48
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A Bi-pattern rope is a convience. I guess it looks cool, but what do I know my rope is pink.
Always tie in (definetly tie in if it's mutli-pitch - before your leader leaves the ground) or tie a knott at the end of your rope when belaying!
Always tie knotts in the end (either together or seperate - I do seperate) when rapelling!
Always double check each other at the start of the climb.
If you drop your climber or rap off the end of your rope it is your fault plain and simple!
These are habits, and habits are sometimes hard to break. Please build good habits. I don't like reading accident reports. :(
Ken
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montaniero
Mar 11, 2005, 11:01 PM
Post #35 of 48
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Nice to have for alpine, but at $40-50 it's too rich for my blood
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montaniero
Mar 11, 2005, 11:03 PM
Post #36 of 48
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Nice to have for alpine, but at $40-50 it's too rich for my blood
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michaellane
Mar 12, 2005, 4:29 AM
Post #37 of 48
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I'm a recent convert to the "bi" scene. I wasn't too hip on it for a long time, mostly because of my concern that if I cut an end off the rope, the middle marker is off forever ... tape you can just reposition. However, it occured to me after a while that I'd owned around ten or twelve ropes in my climbing career and only had to cut the end off one because it got chopped or worn a couple times. I got a good deal on a bicolor once, so I tried it.
Now I think they're the shit.
* it's easier to guesstimate how many feet of rope is left for the leader even just by glancing at the flaked rope on the ground ...
* finding the break in the pattern to discern the middle is a lot easier than looking for some crappy piece of tape or a magic marker labelling when you're setting up a rap in fading light.
* since I usually tape the middle, it was a minor but consistent nuisance to pass that tape through a belay device--not any more with a bicolor.
Is it worth the extra bread? You be the judge. But the benefits are there.
My two cents ...
--ML
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michaellane
Mar 12, 2005, 4:32 AM
Post #38 of 48
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... another reason:
* when you're working a route and taking repeated falls, it's easier to identify which end has taken the abuse and swap out between burns, thereby allowing the rope to recover a bit and improve rope life and safety.
Happy Climbing.
--ML
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michaellane
Mar 12, 2005, 4:38 AM
Post #39 of 48
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oops
--ML
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michaellane
Mar 12, 2005, 4:47 AM
Post #40 of 48
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clarki wrote:
>>>
You can thread a rappel and FEEL the center because the transition point feels a little wierd (rougher, bumpy) compared to the rest of the rope due to the weave change. Try finding the middle of a regular rope with your eyes closed......
<<<
Not all bicolors have this characteristic.
What you're feeling is the result of the sheath yarns being cut and rewoven into itself to affect the pattern change. Some manufacturers do it while keeping the fibers intact and whole. You can't feel the change between patterns at all.
--ML
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paulraphael
Mar 12, 2005, 4:36 PM
Post #41 of 48
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I like my bicolor rope, for a lot of the reasons mentioned.
Mainly, it saves time and gives a bit more peace of mind, especially on routes with multiple rapells on descent.
If it's worth it to you or not depends entirely on your budget.
Personally, I wouldn't pay $40 more for it, but I didn't have to.
I don't know how much extra it was on my edelweiss 9.9--but the total price was a bargain. I'd buy it again.
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tradrenn
Mar 12, 2005, 5:55 PM
Post #42 of 48
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Don't waist your money get a marker. Only $2 or so.
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golsen
Mar 15, 2005, 10:20 AM
Post #43 of 48
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[quote="chanceboarder"]In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Here are the reasons you may want to have this feature: 1. Rapping and making sure the ends are down, 2. Leading and making sure you have enough rope to get to a belay, 3. Sport climbing and making sure your belayer understands how long the route is so he doesnt drop your ass when lowering off... 4. Aesthetics, some people may think it is cool.... In regards to #3. The belayer should be tied into the end of the rope. Period. No, if, ands, or buts. and in regards to #1 just because you have the midpoint of your rope dosen't mean your rope will touch the ground or next rap station. unless you can physically see that it reaches or you have first hand knowledge that it reaches don't assume you have enough rope. assumption is the mother of all f#!K ups, put knots in the ends of your rope for safety
I agree with you that tieing knots in the end of the rapp rope is the safest. Actually, not climbing is far safer, or so I hear. Having retreated from above the great roof on the Nose, and another big wall that I had to set anchors on, I felt it was safer (read Faster) not to tie knots. The other issue for multiple rappels is that the rope could get blown around and I think the rope is easier to get unstuck when NOT tied. There was ample evidence of ropes stuck in flakes when I rapped off El Cap. Personally, I look at the ends and I look at where I am going and I pay close attention to where the hell I am going. I know all the books say to knot the ends, but on a big climb with many rappels I think the knot thing is knot the best alternative.
As far as the belayer tieing in: Again, the safest way but hardly ever done at sport climbing areas which is where all of these accidents happen. I tie the end to my rope bag. Again, the belayer and climber need to be aware of what is going on.
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ikefromla
Mar 15, 2005, 10:21 AM
Post #44 of 48
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necessary? no
worth it? YES
my $0.02
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paulraphael
Mar 15, 2005, 5:37 PM
Post #47 of 48
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In reply to: I agree with you that tieing knots in the end of the rapp rope is the safest. Actually, not climbing is far safer, or so I hear. Having retreated from above the great roof on the Nose, and another big wall that I had to set anchors on, I felt it was safer (read Faster) not to tie knots. The other issue for multiple rappels is that the rope could get blown around and I think the rope is easier to get unstuck when NOT tied. There was ample evidence of ropes stuck in flakes when I rapped off El Cap. Personally, I look at the ends and I look at where I am going and I pay close attention to where the hell I am going. I know all the books say to knot the ends, but on a big climb with many rappels I think the knot thing is knot the best alternative.
There are other options. If it's windy and you're afraid of the ends flying around (or even flying UP) you can rap with the ends tied to your harness, after throwing the middle of the rope.
If it's so windy that this still feels like asking for trouble, you can carry the rope down in lap coils and let it out as you go, still with the ends tied to your harness.
And if it's balls-out windy, you can have your partner lower you (lower on one strand, use the other strand for tug signals).
If it's so windy that the rope blows around even with you tied to the end of it, and it's your head getting stuck behind flakes ... well, no one forced you to go climbing.
I'm warry of rapping on loose, untied ropes, simply because of the number of very experienced climbers who have gone off the ends of them. Experience, vigilance, and even genius don't make you immune to fatal lapses of attention when you're tired.
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matttracyg
Mar 15, 2005, 6:15 PM
Post #48 of 48
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Bi-Pattern Ropes are definitely worth the money.
Marking the rope with a marker doesn't cut it when it's getting dark and you need to move fast.
The first time you're stuck at night and rapping off of something, you'll realize how worth it it was.
I've had a few Mammut Duodess ropes and they're very nice.
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