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climbsomething
Apr 10, 2005, 6:13 AM
Post #26 of 40
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In reply to: Another variation is to put your hands in your partner's climbing shoes so that it forces you not to use your fingers.
In reply to: Focus on your footwork and body positioning.
Improve your footwork by focusing on your footwork... check.
In reply to: Traverse sideways, not up. |
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digit
Apr 10, 2005, 7:24 AM
Post #27 of 40
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In reply to: Skilled footwork is not developed by watching other climbers because the less expereienced climber does not know how or what to observe in the more skilled climber.
To a certain extent, learning by watching other people does work. In order to refine your knowledge, however, it may help to have more experienced climbers watch your footwork and comment on it. Because you can't always understand the subtleties and the motivations of a particular foot placement just by looking at it...
In both situations, the climber may want to stay close enough to the observer, in order for the observer to be actually able to see the climber's feet.
fc
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dynoguy
Apr 10, 2005, 7:41 AM
Post #28 of 40
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foot work is for suckers, just campus everything :lol:
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overlord
Apr 10, 2005, 4:42 PM
Post #29 of 40
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well, i found out i learned a lot by watching other (especially better climbers) do the moves i was doing.
also you can really improve your general technique by watching and analyzing the movent of a person of the opposite sex. i have learned quite a lot by watching girls climb.
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fluxus
Apr 11, 2005, 7:11 AM
Post #30 of 40
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I will revise and extend my comments on the value of watching other climbers because its a topic of interest to me, and I think to others as well.
First of all this is an issue I have a great deal of experience with and its something I've looked into on a scientific level as well.
My first experiences in questions the value of watching other climbers occurred on many occasions when coaching in a gym and was able to observe experienced climbers while working with less experienced cllients. On numberous occasions I asked the less experienced climbers what they saw in the movement of the climbers we were watching. Their answers were telling, they could only identify the most superficial or ovbious aspects of movement, that it looked smooth, controled or "strong". They would often identify inefficient aspects of a climber's movement as "good technique".
On a more rigorous and scientific level, I should to point out that the problems with visual observations have been well noted as far back as at least the 1940's I think the earliest critique I have of visual observations is from the 1920's. One of the most common and well documented problems with visual observations of elite performers is that even coaches and trainers make the mistake of believing that ALL the visable features of the athelet's movement contribute to their elite performance, it has been repeatedly shown that this is not the case.
To curt's glee I should also point out that demonstration is considered a "good companion" to instruction and is called observational learning HOWEVER there is a huge difference between an instructor usings a visual example as part of their overall approach and an inexperienced climber watching more experienced climbers on their own.
Further, McCullagh 1986, determined that observing other athelets performing an action was helpful but it didn't matter if the learner was watching a skilled or unskilled performer, what matters is that the movement contain essential features of the skill being learned. Of course, the people in this study were being guided by a teacher. This is a huge part of visual learning, having an instructor there to focus attention on the specific aspects of what is significant about a movement being observed.
There are many more points I could make, diffficulities I could point out such as the quality of the observations, or the really big one which is that novice and elite athelets as well as coaches are typically unable to see anything that they don't already know to look for. The limits of our knowledge literally limits what we can see. In my experience the impact of this last point is huge, since less experienced climbers often don't understand movement but do believe that to climb you need to be "really strong" they tend to interpert everything they see as a sign of great muscular strength. Again, I should know because I've taken the time to ask.
In addition, I want to add that many important aspects of climbing movement are just too darn fast too see with the naked eye. in climbing 400-600 miliseconds is a pretty long time and frequently the difference between success and failure on a given move comes down to 30 - 60 miliseconds, no one is going to be able to see that with the naked eye. I know this because I've done many hours of video analysis of climbing, using both qualtative and quantitative methodology.
Curt since you're sure that I'm dead wrong I'm curious what your sources are? Do you have a broad historical knowledge of the field of Kinesiology, or of cognitive science relating to motor learning? How many hours have you spent teaching climbers basic and advanced skills? What are the key features of your movement pedagogy? What critical methods do you use to measure learning?
You say I'm arrogant, but that's not exactly right I can tell from the way you quote me and the claims you make about me that you are finding a tone in my posts that isn't intended. Yes, I do indeed get grumpy when for the 1,000th time pull-ups are emphasized as "good training" for climbing, but In the end what I'm about is learning, learning about climbing. I will be glad to take a lesson from you or anyone else if you know what you are talking about. An ego, is the worst thing a teacher can have because it will at one point or another get in the way of knowledge. This is espically true in climbing where there is SOOOOOO much yet to be learned. What I do bristle at is when well informed, critically rigorous, information is assumed to be wrong because it goes against the conventional wisdom of climbing. If I've ever offended you I apologize but I try to keep my posts within the scope of what I can offer a valid and objective explaination for (with the exception of the occasional flame here and there, which are easy to distinguish from posts such as this one). I try not to post things that are merely my opinion or personal prefrence. So when you don't like what I write keep in mind that I'm not *just* blowing smoke at you.
Go back and take a closer look at the language I used in my earlier post about vision and motor learning. its not incompatable with anything I've just written and if you understand the specific language I used I don't think you or anyone else will find much to disagree with, but you must understand the implication of the specific languange to see this.
later
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bmxer
Apr 12, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #31 of 40
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climb using only one hand, i read it on these forums a long time ago. It teaches you a lot about yourself. I tried it at the gym, pretty tricky, but a good experience.
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spacemonkey07
May 11, 2005, 3:57 PM
Post #32 of 40
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try to climb easy (warmup) climbs with your arms stretched all the time. This goes more easlily in traverses than going up, but try to do this at all times. If it's not possible in a certain move, then try to bend your arms as little as possible. This forces you to use your feet as much as possible, going up as well as sideways. You won't only learn to stand on your feet you'll also learn to pull sideways.
the climbing with girls advice was already given, but I want to stress it again. (don't get distracted from their technique though ;-))
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midwestishell
May 11, 2005, 4:11 PM
Post #33 of 40
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I would agree with the early posts that slab climbing is a good start but you will also need to move on to other types of climbs unless you hope to stick to slab your whole life.
One idea I have used before is to take routes that you would normally need dead points and dynamic moves and work them statically. This will force you to find good feet and position your body in a way that allows you to use them. From my experiences you wil find yourself rolling your hips into the wall on most moves to get that extra reach that the dynamic motion wold usually give you.
Just one idea from a skinny armed kid you has never been able to power through anything.
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midwestishell
May 11, 2005, 4:13 PM
Post #34 of 40
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I would agree with the early posts that slab climbing is a good start but you will also need to move on to other types of climbs unless you hope to stick to slab your whole life.
One idea I have used before is to take routes that you would normally need dead points and dynamic moves and work them statically. This will force you to find good feet and position your body in a way that allows you to use them. From my experiences you wil find yourself rolling your hips into the wall on most moves to get that extra reach that the dynamic motion wold usually give you.
Just one idea from a skinny armed kid you has never been able to power through anything.
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edge
May 11, 2005, 4:29 PM
Post #35 of 40
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This sounds ridiculous, but it works.
I once coached a junior climber who had horrible footwork. I went home and put some of the little brass Christmas jingle bells on elastic bands, and then made him wear them around his instep.
Whenever he slammed his feet at a hold, the bells would jingle and gave him an aural reminder about his footwork.
He went on to make the US junior team the next year. To excel at footwork, you must focus on footwork. The bells make you think of your feet with every step. Eventually, this becomes ingrained.
The slab climbing thing works on slab, but is easy to drop on anything else. Still, people continue to recommend it, even though it is a cliche. Personally, I am sick of hearing it.
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aikibujin
May 24, 2005, 5:33 PM
Post #36 of 40
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In reply to: Skilled footwork is not developed by watching other climbers because the less expereienced climber does not know how or what to observe in the more skilled climber.
I agree partially with fluxus (by the way I enjoy reading your posts, I think you have some really good insights on climbing movement), but I'm a terrible climber with very little experience, so my opinion probably doesn't weigh much.
I think fluxus is right that it is sometimes difficult for an inexperienced climber to pick out the little intrinsic movement in climbing (speaking from experience), the subtle way a good climber shift their weight, pulling in with their toes, using opposing force, etc. These very subtle and small movements are often difficult to see.
But I disagree with fluxus on some points. For one, just because an inexperienced climber cannot describe what they saw in the movements of an experienced climber, does not mean that they did not benefit from watching more experienced climbers. It is difficult to describe movements with words, especially some of the very subtle movements in climbing. Just because they cannot describe it, does not mean they cannot visually see it.
So in my opinion, I do think a climber can benefit from watching a more experience climber climb, as I have in my continuous effort to become a better climber. But watching alone isn't enough. I've taught martial arts for a while as an assistant instructor. I know nobody ever becomes a black belt just by watching hundreds of classes. The best way to translate what you acquired visually to your own body movement is by mimicking. Much like teaching a martial arts class, you watch a good climber climb a route, then you try to climb it exactly the same way they did. Different people have different body shapes and strength, so sometimes what they did is not necessarily the best way you should do it. But by mimicking you can figure out what works and what does work. Same thing happens in martial arts also, a beginner cannot develop their own style unless they have already learned much from their teacher. This is a lot more effective on short bouldering routes, or just a few crux moves. Most people will have problem mimicking someone move by move on a long route.
Of course, watching can only take you so far. I agree with fluxus again, that there are things you cannot visually acquire. Even after 10 years of practicing martial arts, there are still very little things my instructor does that makes a technique so much more effective, yet it completely escapes my eyes. But I think it applies more in advanced training, in climbing or in martial arts. Beginners can still benefit much from watching and mimicking.
One training method I've used in the past, that has only been briefly mentioned by fluxus, is the use of videos. Continuing on the idea of watching and mimicking, it is often difficult for us to feel our own body position, especially doing a technique that is not familiar to us. Again, since my experience in climbing is limited, I'll use martial arts for an example. Sometimes a student knows what they should do in a technique, yet because they are unfamiliar with the movement, they cannot tell when their body is doing something different. One way of correcting that is have the student watch themselves from a second person point of view, and all the sudden they can clearly see what they were doing wrong. When I first started climbing, I've used shot videos of both myself and a more experienced climber climbing the same route, and I would look at both videos side by side, compare frame by frame, and I can often catch little different in movements or shift in balance. That has helped me tremendously in becoming aware of how my body moved.
Just my $0.02.
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diligentia
May 24, 2005, 9:48 PM
Post #37 of 40
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Registered: May 24, 2005
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In reply to: I will revise and extend my comments on the value of watching other climbers because its a topic of interest to me, and I think to others as well.
Dammit Fluxus! If you have time to post tomes like this I will feel no sympathy for you relative to our mutual deadlines. Now bury your head back in your Mac and get that editing completed! :twisted:
-D
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pbjosh
May 24, 2005, 9:57 PM
Post #38 of 40
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In reply to: Skilled footwork is not developed by watching other climbers because the less expereienced climber does not know how or what to observe in the more skilled climber. The kinesiological literature contains many warning and critiques of such informal visual observations. Experiences watching other climber may provide a goal, something to aspire to, but they are not instructive in terms of motor learning, which is what you are after.
I am a perfect example of your statement being completely false despite the impressive vocabulary. When I first started climbing I was mystified by how to climb decently and efficiently and make the seemingly impossible reaches on very steep terrain. I straight up asked someone who climbed much better and had been climbing much longer than me to climb some easy problems and routes (this was in a gym) and then I did the same routes emulating their movements and trying to use the same feet that they did. Worked wonders.
josh
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amber
May 24, 2005, 9:59 PM
Post #39 of 40
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Registered: Oct 15, 2004
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here are some exercises that i did with an experienced and creative climbing friend ..
- top-rope blindfolded
- traverse around the gym
- tape my fingers together so that i cant use my hands for anything more than palming for balance and traverse or climb (TR) moderate slabs for my ability.
- boulder the first few feet of slabs that are REALLY hard for my ability. at times, he would physically move my foot into a more appropriate position.
that's all that i can remember off-hand.
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climbingryan
May 24, 2005, 10:37 PM
Post #40 of 40
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Registered: Oct 15, 2003
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what i tried once was taping middle and index finger together, and only use them to try climbing. So you have less power from your hands and you are forced to use your feet more.
"we dont know our limits unless we go beyond them"
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