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bellatoris
Apr 23, 2005, 8:39 PM
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Last Tuesday my partner and I got in about 1,000' of climbing on a slightly pocketed overhanging wall of volcanic rock. I did the climbs in sets; up once something hard, then downclimbed something a lot easier (totally pumped) then jumped back on something hard, then downclimbed the easier route again. I did this four times all on TR, and on the last 4-5 downclimbs would only use two finger pockets to really thrash myself; which I did. I then took off 3 days of rest, and felt good, but not perfect, then hit it again yesterday. I could really feel my tendons, they felt kind of sore while climbing, and on the harder stuff my hands just refused to stay closed. After about 200' of climbing I called it a day. Today I can really feel my tendons, more than I did the day after my last workout; hence my post. So anyone know what the deal is? My killer workout obviously warranted a little more rest, but this is kind of new territory for me. My understanding of the physiologcal process ends right before yesterdays training session.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Ascanio
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overlord
Apr 24, 2005, 4:01 PM
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most likely just inflamation due to overuse. rest until healed.
but beware, things like these have an irritating habbit of becoming chronic. you REALLY dont want that.
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a_scender
Apr 24, 2005, 5:31 PM
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ascanio!!
good to hear from ya, sorry to hear the fingers are blasted. Sounds like you just need a little more rest after such an intense workout. I know that sometimes after really intense fingery climbing my fingers feel stiff for a bit. Maybe you could try just climbing some real easy stuff to stretch them out and keep them moving. Not a very technical answer, but I hope that you figure something out. Good to hear that you are out climbing again. Back in america soon, talk to you then.
o
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obe
Apr 24, 2005, 5:51 PM
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Stretch them like there is no tommorow! Give them time too. :D
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lucander
Apr 24, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Try a heating pad or hot towel wrap to keep circulation flowing and iburpophen to prevent swelling. Rest a lot, this has knocked me out for 7-10 days before. If you don't give your elbows a break they're going to fail you sometime, possibly when you really need them high up on a committing route.
David
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ullr
Apr 24, 2005, 6:04 PM
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When in doubt, leave it out. Apply this to your training. Sounds like you overdoing it.
You'll end up being weaker if you blow yourself out and have to take extended time off than if you rest now nad recover.
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fluxus
Apr 25, 2005, 7:30 PM
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I'll bet your pain is not just tendons, I'll bet its pulleys as well, and other connective tissue. In addition many climbers feel elbow pain at the origion of the flexor digitorum superficialis muscle which crosses the elbow joint, part of its attachment is on the medial epcondyle of the humerus. (the boney lump on the "inside" of your elbow when your arm is extended in front of you with your palm facing up.) pain in this area is due to lack of stretching.
You have massivly inflamed and possibly injurred the connective tissue of your fingers.
4 day procedure:
1) Days 1, 2, 3 take off. On day one take a large does of ibuprofen but only take it on day 1. On days 2 & 3 ice your finges using ice massge on everything that hurts. do this for 30 - 40 minutes at a time going 5 on and 5 off.
2) On day 4 you will climb. do some light stretching of the forearms muscles before climbing and do a long warm-up. Slowly move to more difficult climbs. Always looking out for pain. Take note of how bad the pain is and if it is the same as you felt on your big day. You are trying to determine if you are injurred or just over worked.
3) If you expericence localize, acute pain in your finges similar to what what you did before you may be injurred.
4) If your fingers feel better but are still a little sore you may just need another day or two to recover.
In either case, stay away from the holds that caued you pain, Keep doing direct ice massage on your fingers and dramatically lower the intensity of your climbing until the pain goes away.
In my experience taking time off from climbing does not help in these situations keep climbing at a much lower intensity level. If you have ruptured a pulley or done some other type of serious damage, time off may be necessary.
later
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bellatoris
Apr 26, 2005, 12:42 AM
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Orin,
Got your TR's....sounds like a killer trip. I hope you did not get too many replies, esp. when checking email on archaic systems! Been there!! Anyway it looks like I'll be out in Boulder for July, maybe August....actually might move for good. Check the CO forum for my post.
Take care and give me a shout once you are back.
A
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bellatoris
Apr 26, 2005, 12:52 AM
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Here's the weird thing. My fingers are fine. They are not swollen, tight or sore. Yes, I know they are connected to the tendons running up my arm, but in the past that kind of pain would be complemented with seriously tight, swollen fingers.
The onset of this bizarre event might have been exacerbated by my dismal warmup. I figured I would be ok, since I had a brutal bouldering session, but that was an hour and a half earlier. I avoided the easier climbs only cuz they destroy my skin and limit total volume. Today they are still a little tender, and I am not scheduled to hit the rocks again until Wednesday. 5 days should be ok. If I feel anything weird I'll probably just call it.
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angry
Apr 26, 2005, 1:17 AM
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When my tendons hurt, they aren't swollen, but anti-inflamitory medicine still helps.
I've got the feeling the workout was too hard, I base this on the the Training Bible
Joe friel has written a few books, The Cyclists training bible, the runners..., and the triathletes..., his son is Dirk Friel, a little over the hill but a formidible pro in his day and still quite good now. He operated the website trainingbible.com and now operates trainingpeaks.com --- Basically he is the most well respescted and well researched trainer of amatuer athletes on the planet
Commandment 1 - Train Moderately
Commandment 2 - Train Consistently
There are other commandments, but these are the two you've violated. Basically you worked out so hard that you are going to be unable to get in a good workout for a week or more, you lost fitness to hard work. Had you done 70% of that workout, you'd have reaped most of the benefits and been able to crank again in a short time.
Yes, I realize Joe Friel doesn't train climbers, but his advice is more than sound when adapted for climbing.
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bellatoris
Apr 26, 2005, 10:13 PM
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With all due respect to someone who has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about training, my limited experience on the subject has always told me otherwise (regarding the first principle). Let me explain.
Back in the nineties I was into lifting, and bodybuilding. Like climbing, it was a phenomenal outlet for an exhorbitant amount of energy, and aggression, with obvious results. I read everything and trained like a sick bastard. Everyone around me, including my family was convinced I was on juice. But I was not. I was just super addicted to throwing iron around.
Today I apply the same principles to climbing that gave me the freakish results I incurred while lifting. The foundation principle for improvement is The Overload Principle, which simply states that in order to reap further gains, an increase in either volume, intensity or both must be made. Volume obviously means adding more reps, or sets, intensity requires heavier weights, or in this case harder climbs. Moderate training, 70% intensity would almost be a waste of time, and not be the stimulus for growth that I am looking for. Unless you mean the volume of 20 sets was too much, and should have done only say, 14 sets. But doing laps while exhausted, i.e. saturated with lactic acid helps the muscles build up tolerance, increasing the anaerobic threshold and ultimately increasing one's power endurance. As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. Training consistently is not possible when I take off a week, (or 5 days in my case), however it is important to remember that workouts are catabolic, and rest and nutrition are anabolic. In other words, if you are able to train every day, it really means you are either under doing it (as for the work out) or over doing it by training when you should be resting.
Like I sais earlier, huge gains came to me when I trained like a freak, and rested and ate like a king. I also applied the same strategy to climbing and incurred wicked progress too. (BTW Horst's HIT workout was a staple of mine for a while, and is only really a weight lifting plan for climbers).
One thing we have not really mentioned though is the risk I am placing on my body. Your system is definitely a good conservative long term strategy, mine a risky high reward enterprise. (Lets not forget I was the one who posted about tendon problems! ) I appreciate your views and look forward to your response. (If I remember I'll repost Thursday and let you know how Weds. went.)
Hasta
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bellatoris
Apr 26, 2005, 10:13 PM
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With all due respect to someone who has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about training, my limited experience on the subject has always told me otherwise (regarding the first principle). Let me explain.
Back in the nineties I was into lifting, and bodybuilding. Like climbing, it was a phenomenal outlet for an exhorbitant amount of energy, and aggression, with obvious results. I read everything and trained like a sick bastard. Everyone around me, including my family was convinced I was on juice. But I was not. I was just super addicted to throwing iron around.
Today I apply the same principles to climbing that gave me the freakish results I incurred while lifting. The foundation principle for improvement is The Overload Principle, which simply states that in order to reap further gains, an increase in either volume, intensity or both must be made. Volume obviously means adding more reps, or sets, intensity requires heavier weights, or in this case harder climbs. Moderate training, 70% intensity would almost be a waste of time, and not be the stimulus for growth that I am looking for. Unless you mean the volume of 20 sets was too much, and should have done only say, 14 sets. But doing laps while exhausted, i.e. saturated with lactic acid helps the muscles build up tolerance, increasing the anaerobic threshold and ultimately increasing one's power endurance. As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. Training consistently is not possible when I take off a week, (or 5 days in my case), however it is important to remember that workouts are catabolic, and rest and nutrition are anabolic. In other words, if you are able to train every day, it really means you are either under doing it (as for the work out) or over doing it by training when you should be resting.
Like I sais earlier, huge gains came to me when I trained like a freak, and rested and ate like a king. I also applied the same strategy to climbing and incurred wicked progress too. (BTW Horst's HIT workout was a staple of mine for a while, and is only really a weight lifting plan for climbers).
One thing we have not really mentioned though is the risk I am placing on my body. Your system is definitely a good conservative long term strategy, mine a risky high reward enterprise. (Lets not forget I was the one who posted about tendon problems! ) I appreciate your views and look forward to your response. (If I remember I'll repost Thursday and let you know how Weds. went.)
Hasta
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angry
Apr 26, 2005, 11:19 PM
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I actually agree with you. People climbing at 70% or so never improve. Have you ever looked at those folks at the climbing wall who do 10's all year and can't get an 11 to save their life?
I need to clarify just a little. Some workouts should be hard, very hard. I mean intense. Lets assume you are a 5.11d leader, you should be projecting routes 12a-12c, on lead and refusing to quit. There is also no reason not to try 12d or harder if available and you can do it safely. I think at least half your time needs to be on lead, the other half can be separated between toprope and bouldering.
Other workouts need to be less intense and more endurance based. Assuming the 11d leader situation, you should do as many 11c and under routes that you can get to. 10c or less is probably a waste of time. Laps, repeats, and downclimbing.
I don't believe that workout 1 should ever be combined with workout 2 though. In these weakened states, it's easy to get injured. Also, have you noticed that you (at least I do) tend to get injured when I try one more route. Would you be any worse off if you left right before trying that final route? Probably not.
To be quite honest though, I really don't know and have NEVER opened a book on how to climb harder or climbing training. I do everything like I do for cycling and it's worked great. I spent several months just having fun at the wall and outdoors climbing a little more and a little harder each time, then I started projecting hard routes and really upping the ante with power and output, I returned to the endurance training, then back to the very hard (for me) routes.
So far it's working brilliantly, I'll probably bounce along at this balance between endurance and power for a while, and hopefully get out enough climbing in this summer to improve technique. Really, I'm no climbing trainer though. I know some shit, I've climbed some hard stuff, and I can ride a bike pretty fast.
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bellatoris
Apr 27, 2005, 5:48 AM
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Actually, to me it sounds as though you are doing excactly what I am. I keep telling my partenrs exactly what you are saying, and try to do the same (even though I sometimes don't). I usually quit training when my hand or fingers are too sore to keep going. Anytime sooner and I might as well not even train! As for jumping between power and output that is definitely one way to go.....Plenty of rest and recovery. A damn good combo. Keep it up...we'll chat later.
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bellatoris
Apr 29, 2005, 6:17 AM
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So, after a 6 day rest, and a seemingly full recovery, I am happy to say today's session was a productive event. No residual soreness or premature failure. Sensitive skin, general and local fatigue were the only influencing factors. I also avoided the 2 finger down climb, but will surely add it to my next sesh.
A
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