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iman74
Jul 5, 2005, 6:06 PM
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Part of the reason I decide to start looking into this is that I left my weight training program after 15 years of doing weights for a bodyweight workout, that after only a month of doing it (has been longer since then) I seen more improvement than I ever have with my weights. While I was getting that buffed look that girls tend to drool over, I found the strength was brute strength not functional. Now using a book by Matt Furey and some ideas and suggestions I picked up from here and there I get all my strength that I used in my first climbing class, and barely broke a sweat. Seriously not bragging, just think that weights are good for some things, but definetly not for everything. Also, since I was a kid I was on and off doing grip workouts, and I not talking about those $3 plastic handgrips that you can get at any sports store either. I am talking about the Ferrari of handgrips www.ironmind.com. After using those, I found I could grab onto the (name escapes me) that much easier when I was climbing the walls. What do you guys think about non-weight workouts?
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gearsighted
Jul 5, 2005, 6:55 PM
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Body-weight strength training is the best way to increase your strength to weight ratio. You can build INCREDIBLE strength through body-weight exercises, it's just a matter of using poor leverage to your advantage. A good book on this subject is "The Naked Warrior" by Pavel. Just think, gymnasts use body-weight almost exclusively, and they have INSANE strength to weight ratios. Along those lines, this link has some good exercises for a gymnastic strength training regimen: http://www.dragondoor.com/...=mode3&articleid=229
(the rest of the body-weight strength training articles there are excellent too)
:D
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iltripp
Jul 5, 2005, 7:39 PM
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I was about to post the exact same link as above...
It's a really good pair of bodyweight exercises that works a variety of muscles (especially core ones).
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rockpecker
Jul 5, 2005, 7:55 PM
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Ditto. I like that crossfit website as well. Also check out that gymnastic ring training site (cant remember address). Timmy Fairfield is one of their spokesman for what that's worth. Some great climbing related training on those rings (check out John Gills site for that as well. Sorry for lack of address, use google)
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kyote321
Jul 5, 2005, 8:07 PM
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ditto do gymnast stuff esp. rings. you can do a search and find a good ring workout, modify it to fit climbing.
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iman74
Jul 5, 2005, 8:08 PM
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"The Naked Warrior" have seen that book recommended many times. Right now I am using a combination of exercises from "Combat Conditioning" by Matt Furey and some things I read on Dragondoor website plus www.bodybuilding.com.
I see no reason to go back to weights, unless I want to turn into a muscle head. Weights are great for ridiculous bulk and brute strength, but what I am doing now is giving me lean muscle, plus some serious strength.
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choueiri
Jul 7, 2005, 7:51 PM
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I have done a lot of weight trainning and I notice and then I building a lot of muscle it makes it harder to climb because I am less flexible and the muscle really gets in the way of things. I totally agree that strength training without weights coupled with like one day a week of weights would be a better service to your climbing ambitions. And during the weight days, I think it would be best to lift heavier weights and less reps but I am not sure of that.
Tony
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keinangst
Jul 7, 2005, 8:24 PM
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I lift 3-4 times a week--all free weights--for general conditioning and to help me maintain body mass (6'2", 185#). I'd get pretty weak without it, and also typically lose about 10 pounds of mass in a month without weight training and my ensuing appetite.
Being something of a purist, I have a lot of respect for these body weight techniques. However, I'm a little apprehensive at a couple of things:
First is the L. Ron Hubbard-esque approach that the books seem to take. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's a little cheesy and unsettling.
I also question the safety of strictly bodyweight training on taller/longer people. I.e., there's a good reason that gymnasts tend to be short and stocky to begin with. My biggest fear, even with perfect form, would be the incredible stress on my shoulders and elbows. Any comments from experience?
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phaedrus
Jul 8, 2005, 12:55 AM
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phaedrus moved this thread from General to Technique & Training.
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openair
Jul 8, 2005, 12:38 PM
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I found this which has bearing i believe, at - http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/gymnastics/63/
Body Weight or Weights?
Weight training remains controversial for some coaches. However, weight training will likely become the favored means of conditioning for gymnasts in the near future. The reason for the shift is that in order to achieve high levels of strength and power, the stimulus provided by body weight alone is not sufficient beyond a certain threshold. Using body weight as the stimulus is often too difficult and dangerous when weight training can easily and safely accommodate a higher load stimulus without subjecting the athlete to dangerous postures and risk of overuse injury. However, body weight exercises that mimic gymnastics skills will always be the foundation of gymnastics conditioning. Weight training will only supplement and complement the gymnast's specialized fitness because the skills of gymnastics are simply too complex for simple weight training movements to effectively mimic in their entirety.
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gearsighted
Jul 8, 2005, 9:43 PM
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I definately agree with a couple points: Yes, the Pavel stuff comes off like a cult...people are a bit crazy about it. Personally, I take some of his concepts along with others (Core Performance by Mark Verstegen is a good example) and put them together the way that works best for me. Second, the training regimen of gymnasts IS a bit harsh for most people, but once again, you can take some of their methods and put them to good use along with other strength training.
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nafod
Jul 9, 2005, 2:41 AM
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Since everybody's covered everything else, I'm going to throw in for the olympic lifts; the clean & jerk and the snatch.
I'd never really tried them before until about 2 years ago. Got into them while following crossfit. I'd have to say now that if I could do only one exercise, it'd be one of those two. Probably C&J, as I suck at the snatch.
Why the C&J? Some reasons...
1. Complements climbing muscles.
2. Ferocious core workout. By core, I mean front *and* back (hams, glutes, lower back). Abs are half the core.
3. Requires, trains, and rewards flexibility
4. If done for reps, a monster aerobic/anaerobic workout. A good workout is to put set the bar up with X LBs and try to do 30 reps in as short a time as possible.
5. Killer grip workout if done for reps without releasing bar. Particularly when lowering for the next rep
6. Trains explosive moves. Think dyno. You are basically jumping with weights.
7. You just need a bar and plates, not all that fancy chrome crap at the 24 hour fitness place
8. Works about every muscle in the body. Definitely all the stabilizers. Big time back workout.
8. Just plain fun to do. It's cool to step up to the bar, get psyched, and try to put the weight over your head. You have to commit totally. Sound familiar?
Biggest downside, you can &%$ up your back if you're not careful. Form is important. These aren't preacher curls...
I'll see if I can include this animated GIF showing a turkish lifter winnig olympic gold by putting well over twice his bodyweight over his head (kids, don't try this at home). Reminds me of a dyno from a bouldering video, the intensity of the effort. Check out the flexibility. Watch just the weights, and see how fast he gets underneath them. Powerful.
http://www.crossfit.com/.../thumbnails/2550.gif
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wendella
Jul 9, 2005, 3:54 AM
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Oh crap. I can do the first exercise for about 1.5 seconds. But then my wrists feel like they're on the verge of breaking. This is probably why I can't complete a V1 yet.
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rickrock77
Jul 9, 2005, 12:22 PM
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So who actually does this exercises and how often here?
Are yo going to notice a difference after a month? or is it a 6 month thing?
Does anyone use http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=229, thing?
I will see how long I can hold it for brb..
Ok tried it got to 3 seconds and counting...Will keep practicing..
Advice, have a pillow in front of you for your head to land on!
And what part of climbing is this supposed to help me with?
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kpb
Jul 9, 2005, 2:29 PM
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This article is good:
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=229
The Underground Guide... is a great book, and the forums have lots of trainers giving advice: http://www.rossboxing.com/ The Underground Guide has all you need to get fit with bodyweight training.
http://www.brutaltraining.com/BRUTAL%20HOME.asp has some 'interesting' exercises mixed in with some Australian lunacy.
Scrapper is trying to sell you stuff, but does have a lot of good free info if you poke around: http://www.trainforstrength.com/
Crossfit has some good ideas, but the cult like guru worship there turns me off.
Likewise, Pavel has good ideas, but he's a car salesman. His books aren't a good value and they always indicate that you need to buy one more.
The first link, to Ross's site, is the best. His Underground Guide is totally worth the money. I think it's 30 bucks or so, but I can tell you that not only is it a good book, but Ross will answer any and all questions at his forum or by private email.
I keep all my exercise links at: http://del.icio.us/ooboss/exercise
later,
Kenneth
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corpse
Jul 9, 2005, 2:49 PM
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In reply to: Oh crap. I can do the first exercise for about 1.5 seconds. But then my wrists feel like they're on the verge of breaking. This is probably why I can't complete a V1 yet.
That link is a great one, it has accelerated my exercising some, for sure.. I don't have a strong core, which is why I got realy big into core exercises. My back hurts less now.
As for the exercises in that link - I've been practicing them for a few months now. I can do that frog stand and hold it for about 45 seconds.. I can hold the tuck planche for about 5-10 seconds.
I'm also big into doing planks, especially on the side.
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gearsighted
Jul 10, 2005, 2:21 AM
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I have gone from around 10 seconds on both the tuck planche and tuck lever to 25 and 17 seconds respectively. I do these every other day, along with the one arm pushup and pistol. I supplement this with my work on getting a one arm chin (slow on armed lowering). Personally, I find them VERY useful, and a good challenge. :D
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wendella
Jul 10, 2005, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: I can do that frog stand and hold it for about 45 seconds.. I can hold the tuck planche for about 5-10 seconds.
In reply to: I have gone from around 10 seconds on both the tuck planche and tuck lever to 25 and 17 seconds respectively. I do these every other day, along with the one arm pushup and pistol. I supplement this with my work on getting a one arm chin (slow on armed lowering).
OK, this just isn't for me. I'm going to focus on lower-body. I can balance on one foot, rise up to a relevé, and hold it for 2 hours.
:mrgreen:
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anntadabug
Jul 10, 2005, 11:33 PM
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One word....Pilates
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kcht
Jul 28, 2005, 3:14 AM
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one arm push ups!!
one legged squats!!
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shadowsandwich
Jul 29, 2005, 9:43 AM
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I've been doing the body weight exercises from dragondoor for about 2 months now. It's definitely been slow going, but I've also definitely seen improvement.
To give an idea on progress: I started off with the tuck lever and the frog planche for around 20 and 30 seconds respectfully, and am now working on the advanced tuck lever and the tuck planche on average 35-40 and 30-35 seconds respectfully.
Unfortunately, I have been unable to visit any climbing areas for these 2 months to see how improvements on the body weight exercises have affected climbing performance. I also haven't had any gym access. However, I've been doing alot of supplemental abdominal exercises as well as variations on pushups and pullups: Pullups have started to seem much easier and I've begun to feel more powerful on some types of core exercise like inverted situps.
Also, I've been monitoring progress by plotting sets on excel. Yeah, i know I'm a nerd, but if i can figure out how to save the graphs as jpg's, I'll post them if anyone is interested.
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korrigan
Jul 29, 2005, 11:33 AM
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In reply to: Also, I've been monitoring progress by plotting sets on excel. Yeah, i know I'm a nerd, but if i can figure out how to save the graphs as jpg's, I'll post them if anyone is interested.
You could just use a screenshot.
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shadowsandwich
Jul 29, 2005, 2:51 PM
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-Here are my graphs of my planche and front lever progressions. I guess they're pretty self explanatory.
-Just as a note, I've been experimenting with different rest periods so, even though its been 67 days since I've started the program, the actual amount of days I've been doing the body weight training is much less.
-Also, sudden intense dips aroun the 60 second mark in the graph's y-axis indicate moving on to different variations which lessen leverage and thus make the exercises oh so much harder.
-Yet another side note: I haven't been taking any type of athletic supplementation (other than glucosamine/condroitin for my joints) such as creatine or protein drinks. I'd be curious to hear about the progress of those who are.
http://image53.webshots.com/...7538644TkyfSQ_ph.jpg
http://image56.webshots.com/...7538903pzWLNE_ph.jpg
http://image50.webshots.com/...7536974lmJATk_ph.jpg
http://image53.webshots.com/...7538241figDHr_ph.jpg
-Right now it seems to me that it will most likely take the 6 month time period that he predicts...but that's just for me i guess.
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shadowsandwich
Jul 29, 2005, 2:56 PM
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-Here are my graphs of my planche and front lever progressions. I guess they're pretty self explanatory.
-Just as a note, I've been experimenting with different rest periods so, even though its been 67 days since I've started the program, the actual amount of days I've been doing the body weight training is much less.
-Also, sudden intense dips aroun the 60 second mark in the graph's y-axis indicate moving on to different variations which lessen leverage and thus make the exercises oh so much harder.
-Yet another side note: I haven't been taking any type of athletic supplementation (other than glucosamine/condroitin for my joints) such as creatine or protein drinks. I'd be curious to hear about the progress of those who have/are.
http://image53.webshots.com/...7538644TkyfSQ_ph.jpg
http://image56.webshots.com/...7538903pzWLNE_ph.jpg
http://image50.webshots.com/...7536974lmJATk_ph.jpg
http://image53.webshots.com/...7538241figDHr_ph.jpg
-Right now it seems to me that it will most likely take the 6 month time period that he predicts...but that's just for me i guess.
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