|
ajkclay
Sep 16, 2005, 4:11 AM
Post #1 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
Well?
The other day I was thinking about artificial holds and how to make them, and it all just seems like such a bugger, making molds, getting the mixture of sand/resin/hardener just right, and then waiting for them to cure, drilling, dealing with some cracking blah blah blah...
well, it occured to me that some people use wooden blocks for holds sometimes, and then I thought that it might just be easier to carve wood into various shapes.
Advantages I see are that wood has a lot of structural integrity, is relatively easy to cut and shape (with power tools) and cheap cheap cheap!
So, who out there does it, I know I can't be the first to think of it, and what tools do you use? Do you need to roughen it up much? Do you go for shaped/rounded holds or just stick with generally angular (Square rectangle) shapes?
Finally, please post some pics if you have some good ones.
Cheers,
Adam
|
|
|
|
|
mrsuicide
Sep 16, 2005, 4:29 AM
Post #2 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2004
Posts: 104
|
i make wooden holds. they are ok, takes some time to make anything interesting. simple holds are easy, but boring with wood.
saws, router, rasp, sometimes a dremel, and sandpaper are all i use. make all sorts of holds, even pockets.
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Sep 16, 2005, 4:34 PM
Post #3 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
I made a wall this summer for the kids and started out using wood holds. Mostly we used simple blocks tapered on one side to make jugs and straight blocks for feet placements. The biggest issue was slivers and splinters. the smaller ones we had, I found, would splinter if I put too much force on them or would round off. However, they do work, can be simpler to make and mount, and are cheap. The down side is some time commitment, a lot of sanding to avoid slivers and splinters.
We have since switched to real rock holds that were drilled and some manufactured holds. These were pretty cheap as well but much more labor intensive. The rocks are cheap (i.e. free) but you need some pretty darn good masonry bits, drill, etc. To date I have ruined two drill bits beyond resharpening. Which is my fault for pushing them so much. Some rocks drill good, some really hard, some split, etc. It takes some time to sort out nice flat sided rocks (at least on one side) and somewhat softer stone that will drill good but not shatter.
The manufactured holds were donated by some friends who are not using them any longer in exchange for wall usage (great to have a few friends stop by and play).
And so, given the three different variations of hold material we have used, everyone (so far 10 out of 10 people) prefers the natural rock holds over the wood and even the manufactured holds.
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Sep 16, 2005, 4:41 PM
Post #4 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
I should also mention that we sanded the wood holds to avoid slivers and splinters. But we did paint them with some texture paint as well as the wall itself. This was a bad idea. I spent time resanding everything after the kids lost some skin.
|
|
|
|
|
ryanb
Sep 16, 2005, 4:56 PM
Post #5 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2004
Posts: 832
|
I have made walls in the past and am currently in the process of makeing another before the rains set in.
Wood works great for campus rung or similar edges. (a band saw and a belt sander make them super easy to make) Sand them smooth. They will get slippery over time but this just forces you to use more mechanical force, building more strength. One of the companies that makes campus rungs, metolius I think, has a page somewhere on the shapes they use to prevent injury. Use good, fine grained (maybe even hard?) wood and pre drill screw holes (and space for a washer to spread the force out).
To make decent more complicated holds...particularly pockets or slopers... I think its probablyy quicker to get a job and use the money to buy profesional holds. Good wood is not cheap and neither is time. Particullarly time lost to tendon injuries from training hard on bad holds Allways warm up...
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Sep 16, 2005, 4:58 PM
Post #6 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
I Used to make Black Walnut holds for gyms for a living. Sycamore also works out pretty damned well.
The absolutely mandatory tools:
1) Band saw
2) High quality Belt sander with 40 or 50 grit belt, and a way to clamp it to a workbench upside down so you can sand the shapes into each hold.
3) Forstner drill bits for the countersunk bolt holes and for Pocket drilling
Not absolutely mandatory, but highly recommended:
1) Drill Press
2) Table saw
3) Router with numerous round over bits
3) a solid working knowledge of woodshop safety. If you don't have this, you can still make things like holds out of wood, but ask tommy caldwell about the results.....
4) a creative, intelligent mind and a knowledge of wood shear strengths.
The variety of shapes you can get out of wood, the fact that wood is very tendon friendly when worked up properly, great to train on, and the fact that you can make holds any size (1/2" to 20 feet long) make wood an ideal medium. But you gotta have good wood. And last time I checked, Black walnut was running about 8$ a board foot. Although you can sometimes find some moron who is selling black walnut for firewood....But that requires alot more labor on your part (and a thickness planer) to get a flat backside surface. I once found a black walnut stump that some farmer had dug out of the ground and just left there...I got over 3,000$ worth of holds out of that one....But you need a chain saw mill to do that.
Last note: Hardware store lumber= splinters. Truly inferior and not worth wasting your labor on.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Sep 16, 2005, 4:59 PM
Post #7 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
I've done this, and used a mix of plain wood and holds that I painted with a sand paint. That was actully pretty nice for the footholds...better than bare wood. But, getting the right mix of sand in the paint to be kind to the hands took some doing.
Like others, I've had some of them crack apart under load. You learn how to orient the shapes with the grain of the wood....
I prefer real rock, but wood is definitley easier.
Oh, the other thing I've done is take natural rocks and glued them (PC-7 epoxy) to wood backings. This made mounting them easier, and was pretty cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
oldrnotboldr
Sep 16, 2005, 5:21 PM
Post #8 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 306
|
In reply to: Oh, the other thing I've done is take natural rocks and glued them (PC-7 epoxy) to wood backings. This made mounting them easier, and was pretty cheap.
And didn't pull the rock loose from the wood backing? That would certainly be a cool idea. The people who have used my wall prefer the real rock. Drilling them buggers was a real b^%$#. I have no plans of doing that anymore. But if that glue works really bomber, what a great idea.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Sep 16, 2005, 6:49 PM
Post #9 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
Yes, it really worked....of course, there are some things to watch out for.
For some of the rocks, I sculpted a depression in the wood for them to sit in; that doesn't have to be too exact, but it helps if it bears some resemblence to the shape of the rock. The epoxy will fill gaps. It's probably a good idea to wirebrush the back of the rock, so that there is no loose surface stuff - so the glue has a solid surface with which to bond. Even if I don't sculpt the wood mounting base, I like to rough the surface up in order to make sure that the epoxy has a rough surface to bond with.
PC-7 is a putty-like epoxy, so you don't have to worry about it running off the surface before it bonds.
I have had some rocks break - either along a striation (make sense) or because they must have had micro-fractures. (Traprock from roads tends to be suspect).
Because of the thickness of the wood, most of the holds you make this way will stand fairly proud of the wall.
Experiment with it - it definitely gives you some more variety.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Sep 16, 2005, 8:18 PM
Post #10 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
Wood is a great medium indeed. But before you think it's the be-all and end-all, take a look at your favorite, complex commercial hold. Try to duplicate that in nice fine grained hardwood (as others have said, softwood lumber is not good enough). Several hours later you're still strying to sculpt the hollows and reliefs in the thing. My wood holds are either simple rails, super positive warm-up/lap jugs, or odd shapes cut from from fallen trees. I have one knob that looks like a Cocker Spaniel. We used that one as a book end rather than a hold, it was that cool.
OTOH one of the neatest features of our local gym is an 8 foot 2.6 that someone seriously sculpted. It typically goes on a vertical wall at a diagonal, and is surrounded by a few jibs for the feet. No other hand holds provided. It's always a good challenge to find the sequence on it.
|
|
|
|
|
rmsusa
Sep 16, 2005, 8:35 PM
Post #11 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2004
Posts: 1017
|
Metolius has a whole line of wooden holds and boards. See their website.
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Sep 16, 2005, 10:48 PM
Post #12 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
In reply to: Wood is a great medium indeed. But before you think it's the be-all and end-all, take a look at your favorite, complex commercial hold. Try to duplicate that in nice fine grained hardwood (as others have said, softwood lumber is not good enough). Several hours later you're still strying to sculpt the hollows and reliefs in the thing.
Nah...I disagree. My holds in a medium size (~3" to 4" across) would average out at about 10 minutes time investment apiece. 15 minutes if it was a complex shape, or had a pocket....
But then again, I used to make those holds for a living.....it seems like the learning curve on sculpting wood is a pretty steep one, but after a week or two, you definitely have a good handle on some of the tricks of the trade.
So if you have a little time to invest, or if you have a shop and you've already done some of this sort of woodwork, It's well worth the time.
Oh, one more tool that's worth it's weight in gold, but requires some cash outlay and a compressor: a Pneumatic Die Grinder. It's basically a 4 wheel drive industrial version of a dremel tool. Really great for making those allegedly "time consuming" complex shapes.
And again, wood is a superior medium for training. beats plastic hands down. And does not give off toxic gasses like plastics do when they're curing.
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Sep 16, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #13 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
http://www.oldnewspublishing.com/pocket.jpg
Sycamore burl finger pocket, top center. Used a tablesaw to make the back flat, drilled pilot holes, sealed with polyurethane and done. A little slippery, but that's part of the fun.
If anyone wants to carve holds I've got this much prime sycamore left from the tree:
http://www.oldnewspublishing.com/wood.jpg.
Cover shipping and it's all yours. No idea what that would cost, though, it's pretty heavy wood.
|
|
|
|
|
sumchum
Sep 17, 2005, 12:35 AM
Post #14 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2004
Posts: 32
|
Great topic
Very informative
Never thought of using wood to make holds, I will now.
Wow, people on this site do other things besides climbing...cool :)
peace
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Sep 17, 2005, 2:30 AM
Post #15 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
graniteboy, thanks for the advice, great information. I am in Australia, so black walnut would be too expensive, but redgum or jarrah would make good replacements I think.
Thanks for the list of tools too, some of them I have, others are easy enough to get a hold of,
Cheers!
Adam
|
|
|
|
|
tattooed_climber
Sep 18, 2005, 6:03 AM
Post #16 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 4838
|
i have a bit of simple wooden holds....rails (1/2 inch ply wood wraped in tape)....campus rungs.....and lots of simple foot holds....and lots of blocks for hooking/axing...
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Sep 19, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #17 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
Oh...one last point:
Using a plastic like urethane, spar varnish, whatever on your wood holds does away with one of the best advantages of wood in the first place:
Wood sucks up sweat. Plastic does not.
A semi-ring porous wood like walnut has millions of tiny capillaries that suck moisture away from the surface, which means you don't need to dip those pinkies in the chalk bag as much. Plus pure wood just feels better when you contact it.
For the Aussie: As for Eucalyptus or gum wood: I've used it....wasn't quite as good as walnut. Try sycamore if you can't get walnut. And visit a local wood guru in australia....they know more than we do abt woods, for sure.
|
|
|
|
|
sidepull
Sep 19, 2005, 4:50 PM
Post #18 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
|
What about using wood that is pre-shaped such as hand rails and mouldings? It seems like you can get these in hard wood, it increases the variability, and reduces some of the work time. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
graniteboy
Sep 20, 2005, 5:24 PM
Post #19 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 1, 2001
Posts: 1092
|
Wooden handrails ore OK if you want to pay for them....they can, however, be pretty costly. If you want any of the good woods like walnut, you'll hafta pay thru the nose....last time i checked, walnut handrail was running about 15$ a linear ft.....That's enough to make you hot for plastic.
Most handrails are made of doug fir....not a good choice for handholds.
Also, the lack of variety in shape may lead you to want to make some "real" wood handholds eventually...if you do, good luck, and if you run into any problems, drop me a line and I'll fill your head with the most ridiculous nonsense about wood sculpting and handholds.....but do not, I repeat do not let me know when you cut your finger off with the bandsaw.
|
|
|
|
|
crazyscuba
Sep 26, 2005, 9:20 PM
Post #20 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2003
Posts: 173
|
or you can just make clay holds. they can be expensive at times but there is no wasted clay, you can make endless footchips, and you can use them for years. we still have holds from our first batch that was fired 12 years ago.
better than wood or plastic in our view.
steve
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Sep 27, 2005, 1:22 PM
Post #21 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
In reply to: or you can just make clay holds. they can be expensive at times but there is no wasted clay, you can make endless footchips, and you can use them for years. we still have holds from our first batch that was fired 12 years ago. better than wood or plastic in our view. steve
interesting idea, do you drill holes just before firing or when wet?
what other unusual or inventive mediums have folks used for holds? or what else can you think of?
Adam
|
|
|
|
|
crazyscuba
Sep 27, 2005, 5:44 PM
Post #22 of 22
(2682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2003
Posts: 173
|
when we shape the holds we make them with the holes already in them. they are shaped with a flathead bolt in mind and you make the hold around the bolt hole.
they are a blast to climb on and we recomend them to everyone.
steve
|
|
|
|
|
|
