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flamer
Aug 12, 2004, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: I wonder if someone has started bolting in a primarily trad area?
There have been bolt protected routes at lumpy for a very long time.
Bolts don't make it a sport line.
josh
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roboclimber
Aug 12, 2004, 10:47 PM
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Hindsight is always 20/20, but if you don't push past your fear and step out of your comfort zone, you will never advance as a climber; however, to step onto a 5.9+ lead after leading 5.6 trad is a huge leap. The account was harrowing; glad to hear that you are okay.
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cliffmonkey2003
Aug 12, 2004, 11:06 PM
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I know that a 5.6 to 5.9 leap is huge and I had no intention of making that leap on that day or ever. I planned on stepping up to a 5.7 eventually (with a few more at 5.6 under my belt), but this came and kicked my a--. I brought it upon myself. I had originally planned on leading the 5.2/5.3 pitch, but I made mistakes and one thing led to another.
I agree on one hand that stepping up to the plate is the only way that you can hit the ball, but being conservative, especially in my case is the smart way to go. I could've made it to the top of that climb, but I'm glad that I didn't. It would've instilled a false sense of security on later climbs. I'm still very much a beginning trad leader with much to learn.
I guess that I'd like others that are in the same situation to rethink their advancement strategies and tone it down a little. Don't be in a rush. My experience was very limited going into that climb. my first lead on a multipitch route was done the day before when I led 2 pitches of Batman and Robin at 5.6. Before that, I had seconded a multipitch route about 4 or 5 times on only two separate routes in the Wichitas of Oklahoma (Both 5.7 or 5.6). I had led a few climbs, all 5.6 or under (by a few, I mean 4 or 5, and only one of them multiple times). Except for switching the roles of second and leader, my partner had the same experience in multipitch leading as I. The point is that we got in over our heads and came out lucky.
So for everyone thinking that you just need to grab the bull by the balls, at least think twice about it.
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climber_osu
Aug 13, 2004, 6:09 AM
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As the partner, let me offer my 2 cents.
I couldn’t see Adam and it seemed like the climb was taking a long time. I heard “falling” and knew something was bad. It took a long time. I started taking rope as fast as possible and nothing happened. I don’t remember if it jerked me when he stopped. I yelled for him and got no reply. Three or four times I yelled and got nothing. That was a truly horrible feeling. He moaned and then said, “I am okay. I think my arm is broken. Lower me.” When I got to Adam, he looked stunned. Like what just happened. We bandaged his arm and hiked out. Adam hiked out quickly. It seemed to take a long time even though we were moving quite quickly. I remember thinking about the gear being just left behind and I was pissed at my self for thinking about it.
The things I learned:
1. When someone falls 80ft, you can’t untie the rope. Luckily, Adam had a knife in his pocket. I will have one also from now on.
2. Make sure that you can find your partners insurance card, parent’s full names, ss#, address, etc. The hospital wants to know. (it can affect the care you get)
3. Even though it a partner thing, decisions are made independently and can have serious impact. Had I lead the 2nd pitch, I would have quit at the bolt. I didn’t get to make the choice.
4. Don’t think you can just follow another party up a climb. It obviously did not work for us.
5. The mountains have awesome power that draws us. This same power…
6. If they ask you if you like your shirt in the ER, it means they are going to cut it off. Your reply doesn’t really matter.
Things could have been much different and a small change in luck could have hurt us badly. We lucked out on rope. Just enough to get us both off the wall with out trouble and it was close. Really close.
We will be back, and for that opportunity, I am grateful.
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mazzystr
Aug 13, 2004, 6:39 PM
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i just had a similiar lesson except my lesson left me upside down, two feet from the ground with my arms outstrecthes touching the ground... lessons learned lessons learned...
sounds like both of you can walk away from this with many things learned.
take care and climb safe,
-chris
*edited to fixx italic*
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granitegod
Aug 16, 2004, 6:34 PM
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Hey dude, buy me a lottery ticket! You're one lucky sonofagun....
See Eward Whymper quote below, it seems relevant....
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takeme
Aug 31, 2004, 2:45 AM
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I've climbed a lot up at Lumpy Ridge--more than anywhere else. From reading your report, I don't even think you were on the Left Book (where Zingando is). I think you were on a climb called "Fantasy Ridge", which is on the Bookmark--the formation directly in front of the Left Book. Your description of the pitch on which you fell matches the second pitch of Fantasy Ridge perfectly (although you were off route even by the description of that pitch--after the bolt and .75 "robot" that you mentioned, you need to traverse right). There are also no bolts in the vicinity of Zingando.
Charles
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cliffmonkey2003
Sep 1, 2004, 6:07 AM
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Hey Charles, thanks for the info. Like I had said before, neither of us had climbed there before and so we didn't know all of the formations. We actually asked for directions to Left Book from some people when we accidentally hiked up to right book. We may have misunderstood their directions. After looking in the guidebook, Fantasy Ridge looks exactly like what we climbed. But yah, I was definitely still off route and fell right before the ledge that is just to the left of the arete next to the overhang on Fantasy Ridge. Have you ever done this climb before? If so, how much protection is available after I should've traversed right following the robot placement? I'd like to go back someday and do the route, 'cause it looks real fun. It's real disconcerting to know that we were even on the wrong formation, but its nice to know exactly what happened now.
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healyje
Sep 1, 2004, 10:16 AM
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Hmmm,
I have to agree with Bill Coe that experience is the fastest route to wisdom.
The issue of topos does raise some basic issues about [trad] climbing, however, and they in turn relate to safety. I learned to climb in a relatively unclimbed area and pretty much everything we did was a first ascent. What we got out of that experience was we learned to measure our abilities directly against the rock, i.e. we could pretty much tell by looking at a route how interesting a time we were in for. While we didn't develop the same sense of route finding as a larger area because our area was not particularly tall, we did develop a good sense and feel for where we were going and how to look/plan ahead. Did we epic? You bet, but we learned along the way and while we "went for it" a bunch, we always kept judging the route against our capabilities.
I guess the point of my comments is that there are also risks involved with becoming overly dependent on guidebooks, route descriptions, beta, and even the chalk on routes - such dependence doesn't build the same skills as going out and eyeballing the rock for yourself and developing good judgement around gauging routes against your capabilities. In fact, under circumstances such as you describe - not being on the route you thought you were on - a dependence on guidebooks can lull you in to proceeding even though the rock is beginning to give you pretty clear signals something is wrong. In your case it sounds a bit like you were still holding a 5.6-9 worldview from the route you intended to do without necessarilly realizing how quickly a different route can get difficult until it was too late.
Developing good skills with pro is also very important. You don't describe the shallow cracks well enough to tell whether someone more experenced might have been able to figure out some form of protection in those cracks - would offset Aliens or stacked nuts/hexes work?
What I'm trying to say is a bit hard to get across in these days of learning in climbing gyms and then going outside - you just don't learn the same progression of skills, cautions, and general risk management. I would encourage you and others to once in awhile abandon all pre-knowledge of an area and just eyeball everything - don't worry about the ratings, but also don't be oblivious to how hard it is getting as you look ahead. Learn to judge for your self. It's sort of like the difference between folks that can play an instrument by ear and those that can only play from sheet music.
Also, the comment on down-climbing is an essential one for all trad climbers. You said you couldn't down-climb and I think that points out another skill that is worthwhile developing. My partner and I both used to teach climbing and we would make folks climb down everything they climbed up. When they couldn't get the next climb in the progression we would have them downclimb the previous climb the had done - it always helped. Down-climbing and knowing when to call it quits are really essential in trad climbing. When you start getting back in shape and going to the gym again I would very much suggest you spend a bunch of time down-climbing the routes you go up.
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reno
Sep 1, 2004, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: The things I learned: 1. When someone falls 80ft, you can’t untie the rope. Luckily, Adam had a knife in his pocket. I will have one also from now on.
I know climbers that carry a single knifeblade piton for such purposes... loosening the knot after a fall.
In reply to: 2. Make sure that you can find your partners insurance card, parent’s full names, ss#, address, etc. The hospital wants to know. (it can affect the care you get)
It shouldn't, and if it does, you'll win more money in a lawsuit than you can possibly imagine. There are federal laws that prohibit hospitals, ambulances, etc. from limiting care/refusing care based on the ability to pay.
But yes, having such info is handy, and it does help the hospital. The ER will need this info for several reasons: Contacting parents if the patient is a minor, contacting next of kin if needed, helping make travel arrangements if needed, etc.
In reply to: 6. If they ask you if you like your shirt in the ER, it means they are going to cut it off. Your reply doesn’t really matter.
True. As a wise doctor once told me, "Jeff, you simply can not see injuries if they are covered by clothing... the patient must be exposed to be evaluated." Sometimes this can be done by simply undressing. Sometimes the clothing gets cut.
I remember one patient I had some years ago that was upset at me for cutting his sweater. How was I to know it was a hand-woven Italian wool sweater? :oops:
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 1, 2004, 10:03 PM
Post #36 of 55
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A comment on lumpy and guidebooks.
The J crack, one of the more popular routes at the crag.
My guidebook rated it 5.9 with a unprotected 5.8 runnout.(rossiter)
I was looking at a new guide at rei the other day and they rate it 5.9 with an unprotected 5.10 runnout!
Nothing has changed on the route.
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takeme
Sep 2, 2004, 12:42 AM
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cliffmonkey--
Traversing right after the gear placement on Fantasty Ridge is exciting, but you certainly won't be looking at an 80-footer. Maybe 20-footer if the gear holds. To be honest, I'm amazed that you kept going up that face, given that you hadn't led harder than 5.6. I remember being scared just leading that pitch the normal way, even though it was within my demonstrated leading ability.
re/J-Crack: alpineclimber, indeed nothing has changed--there has always been a 5.10 and a 5.8 way to do the traverse! (there's actually at least 4 different ways to do it). There has also always been debate about whether or not either deserve an "R" rating.
Charles
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cliffmonkey2003
Sep 2, 2004, 6:49 AM
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healeyje,
I do agree with your comment on the dependence on guidebooks, we shouldn't be so dependent. That is why I would like to work on my routefinding abilities and going into some climbs blind with the idea that having to bail off may be necessary at any point in time. I've never had to think like that, and I've never been told to think like that prior to my accident. In the month following this fall I have had quite a few "Ah hah" :idea: moments.Its not that I have a "this climb is not kickin' my a-- today" attitude, I have never climbed in an area where the rock quality is at all questionable, where the routes seem so abundant yet are hidden by other formations, where the weather closing in could turn real nasty and make for a bad day, etc. I haven't spent much time in gyms, though, I guess you could say that that is where I ultimately had my first climbing experience. But I also haven't visited a plethora of outdoor climbing destinations and so my experience is limited mostly to the few routes that I have done in the Wichita mountains here in OK. The rock is great there, the weather is easy to spot most of the time, the approaches are short for most areas and the formations are pretty distinguishable because they aren't very large, nor are they laid out in very close proximity to one another.
In short, some areas are very different from a lot of others and it pays to be observant of this in an area new to you and to be prepared with as much knowledge of the climbing in that area as you can find. This has been yet another "Ah hah" :idea: moment for me.
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healyje
Sep 2, 2004, 7:51 AM
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CliffMonkey,
Well, like Bill C. said you lived through it and learned. I am somewhat amazed you kept going, but from your description I'm sure that ledge must have been more and more enticing as you went.
I'm still curious about the pro - do you think it could have been protected somehow? Also, everytime I went up to the RMNP from home I got my ass kicked by the altitude for something like a week - do you think that played any role in the accident at all.
Again, you obviously have the reverse problem of most folks - they would have stopped and backed off - you just need better training and more experience and you'll be a hell of a climber. You should really try to hook up with a experienced leader for at least one climb the next time you go back RMNP. I'm sure you could find a local CO volunteer here that would take you up on it.
Joseph
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cliffmonkey2003
Sep 2, 2004, 3:50 PM
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The altitude does wear me down on the approaches, but I tend to get used to it in steps, one after the first half hour or so, one on the next morning and I'm usually totally good after that second day. I don't have a big problem with altitude and I've noticed it whenever I go from the 900 feet above sea-level here to 9,000 feet somewhere in the mountains. So I don't think it was a factor in my decision to go on, or in my climbing ability.
I don't believe, and I can't remember exactly what those cracks looked like, that they would hold any pro. I know that they were very shallow and seemed more like grooves from something than cracks. They were also a very broad u-shape, so the sides flared out towards the surface quite a bit, if you can picture what I'm saying. I'm not the most experienced climber, but I'm 99% sure that anything I had on my rack wouldn't have gone in, including stacked nuts.
Anyway, as for eventually being a great climber, that's a very distant second on my list of goals behind being a safe and knowledgable climber. I'm still a teenager for a few months and so maybe that stereotypical feeling of immortality kept me going, but I'm more mature than that now.
As for the next time I go to CO, I will probably be moving there for school next fall and I'm sure that just being in the area will improve my climbing immensely.
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healyje
Sep 2, 2004, 4:52 PM
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CliffMonkey,
Ah, you're young - that probably does explain things a bit - and I'm doubly glad we didn't lose you.
As for the distinction between being a great or a safe climber - I think the great climbers are safe climbers. I believe the real crux of it all is balancing risk with what I call context. By that I mean we all take risks - and, conciously or unconciously, we usually weigh context in which we are about to take a risk, e.g. passing another car while driving is a risky activity: doing it at night, in the rain, and on an unfamiliar road is a very different risk context then doing it on a sunny day on a road you drive every day.
Awareness of the risk context is everything in climbing. Dean Potter can free solo a hard Valley route safer than I can free solo a strange 5.8 somewhere unfamiliar - again, Dean climbs relentlessly and knows the rock in the Valley, whereas I climb far less and would be confronted by strange rock. Context includes environmental conditions, your physical and emotional state, experience level with rock and gear, familiararity with the terrain, and many other factors.
The bottom line here is there is no reason why you can't be both a great climber and a safe one. Again, my advice to a young person would be to pretty much use guidebooks to get you to an area and then skip the the route descriptions and beta and just find your own way and routes - at least for the first day when you hit a new area so you get to know the rock first hand. Oh, and as I said before, when in the gym or on a top-rope take every opportunity to down climb things.
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cliffmonkey2003
Dec 6, 2004, 9:07 AM
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So my fall is pretty much old news now, this happened about 4 months ago, but I just posted the pictures from the hospital. If you were interested in the amazingly minor set of injuries I came away with, the picture of my arm is linked below. Even though it was four months ago, I still don't have full range of motion back in my arm. I just started physical therapy for that. So just a little reminder: be prepared.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=ListPhoto&PhotoID=44837
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healyje
Dec 6, 2004, 11:23 AM
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Cliff Monkey - glad to hear you're recovering, keep us posted in this forum on how it goes. I'm sure we'd all like to know what it takes to come back from this sort of injury...
Happy holidays!
- Joseph
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adnix
Dec 6, 2004, 1:18 PM
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In reply to: You obviously should have gotten back on route when you initially saw your error in route finding. Also, it was obviously bad judgement to continue because you then got yourself into a situation where you could no longer retreat. |
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cliffmonkey2003
Dec 15, 2004, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You obviously should have gotten back on route when you initially saw your error in route finding. Also, it was obviously bad judgement to continue because you then got yourself into a situation where you could no longer retreat. It's always a hard bargain. If you make it, it's the best pitch you've ever done. If you don't make it, you'll take a huge whipper.
To tell the truth, I never even thought about its being the best pitch I'd ever done. I thought about it afterwards, you know, the "just five more feet!" thing. I had never been that runout, and I was just worried about surviving, but I was still living in the moment, it was weird. Unfortunately I really liked that feeling of vulnerability and accomplishment at the same time.
By the way, I went to physical therapy the other day and since I've started that, I've gained 10 degrees of motion in my elbow both with flexion and extension. To gain 20 degrees after just two or three weeks felt great! Only 25 degrees to go each way.
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karlbaba
Dec 15, 2004, 4:58 AM
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Hi Monkey Bro
Glad you made it.
I just wanted to offer a slightly different perspective for new leaders. Sure you made a number of mistakes but they all fall into the same category. "Climbing into Cluelessness."
When we're new at climbing, we're naturally not that experienced at routefinding, reading topos, seeing from a distance whether a crack will take pro or not, and noticing the telltale signs that others had climbed that way before. It takes some experience, and/or talent, to get the knowledge that you need to make it safe.
So the key is, know what you know and what you don't know. Try not to climb into situations where you're faking it and hoping for the best.
At least when it comes to trad climbing. Start out more following than leading. Start out leading stuff that you've followed before. Failing that, at least have a topo and make sure it makes sense from the ground, maybe observing another party. Sure, it's accepting a little less adventure than "going for it" but when it comes to complicated trad situations, it better to not die and have adventures where you understand the risks you are accepting. You'll feel plenty excited anyway.
It would be adventurous to put your life savings on one roll of the dice, but if you don't even know the odds, you're not placing enough value on yourself.
Peace
karl
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addiroids
Dec 15, 2004, 5:44 AM
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Awesome bro!! Welcome to trad climbing, it is always like this!
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adnix
Dec 15, 2004, 10:57 AM
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In reply to: To tell the truth, I never even thought about its being the best pitch I'd ever done. I thought about it afterwards, you know, the "just five more feet!" thing. I had never been that runout, and I was just worried about surviving, but I was still living in the moment, it was weird. Unfortunately I really liked that feeling of vulnerability and accomplishment at the same time. |
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cliffmonkey2003
Oct 4, 2005, 8:07 AM
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Maybe that makes a sport climber, but my personality has always been one of indifference. Unfortunately that leads me to rash decisions. Its hard to correct, but I hope that for most of you with the same problem, you will find some direction from this post. Its only recently that I've realized my indifference towards most experiences and how it has affected me past and present, but I believe that it has a very real impact.
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booger
Oct 4, 2005, 10:35 AM
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In reply to: Vegastradguy, I like your method of carrying a topo with you, and actually thought of that while I was in the hospital. That was kind of a bad time to think of something so important.
Cliffmonkey,
First - I'm glad you're okay :!:
My partner and I generally don't like to carry a guidebook up routes with us, since it is sometimes a hassle- extra weight (depending on the book) and only one partner ever has access to it. But we never leave the ground without a topo. We will draw/copy the topo onto a piece of paper each, then fold it up and stick it in a pocket. It takes about 10 minutes extra, but it has two advantages: First, you get to know the topo really well since you draw it yourself and pencil in the important features/things to remember. Second, you can carry it with you and pull it out/check it anytime you need to. Hope that might help you!
Again, glad you're recovering!
:) Taz
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