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ozi_tradi
Oct 3, 2005, 4:29 AM
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at a recent comp i was at i was discussing training with other competitors and the subject of creatine came up. creatine is aparently natural performance supplement.
im interested in peoples opinion of creatine as people that had tried it at the comp had very conflicting veiws on it.
cheers
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zozo
Oct 3, 2005, 4:35 AM
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If you need to intake anything other than a cup of coffea in the morning than you are full of shit.
Period.
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anykineclimb
Oct 3, 2005, 4:38 AM
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This has been discussed many, many times.
Look down at the bottom of the page.
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scotia
Oct 3, 2005, 5:38 AM
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I believe that the main argument against creatine is that it can add excess weight in areas that are not beneficial to climbing, and could be more of a hinderence than anything else. For example, if the legs are not worked out whild taking creatine, it can just go on as excess bulk which sucks. I would just stick to goood old fashion protein in reasonable amounts.
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mendou
Oct 3, 2005, 6:10 AM
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i think it depends....
if you ask to a bodybuilder, he would respond that the creatine is good, cause he needs more weight...
but the question is... what do you want?
i dont think that a climber needs more weight...
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tribaltalon
Oct 3, 2005, 7:14 AM
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creatine does NOT make you stronger! all it does is retain water in your muscle cells, so you look bigger. i used to work out alot back in the day, and creatine really is one of those kind of things that will make you look bigger, but once you stop taking it, you shrink down again. personally, i stay far far away from any of the supplements, because most of them are targeted at bulking you up, which really isnt needed in climbing. what i do is i take a multi vitamin with a shitload of good stuff in it every day, i eat a turkey breast sandwich, i drink a frusion or two, a glass of Orange Juice, for lunch i eat a meal replacement energy bar which gives me exactly the things i need, while actually tasting pretty decent and filling, and then i'll eat a granola bar or two and then i'll eat more sandwiches at night with some gatorade or water. i started this regimen when i started climbing again, and i feel pretty darn good. my muscles and tendons definitely seem to be recovering very well because they're getting the protein and vitamins they need every day. havent really noticed any different in my body though, cant imagine i'm putting on any weight. shoulders are already starting to get pronounced though, and my forearms are starting to get some definition. really dont care about being all ripped or anything though, just concentrating on getting my body what it needs to repair itself and get stronger without adding on too much mass.
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vulcan
Oct 3, 2005, 9:07 AM
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Creatine has definitly helped my climbing game. Before i started eating the C I was a 5-9 Top Roping wuss. Now after intense weight training and diet regime i am a 5-13+ ropegun. Creatine is just like using chalk, or rubber shoes, it is simply what helps you send that hard route. Frankly if you don't use creatine you must be a geek.
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jcshaggy
Oct 3, 2005, 11:07 AM
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In reply to: creatine does NOT make you stronger! all it does is retain water in your muscle cells, so you look bigger. i used to work out alot back in the day, and creatine really is one of those kind of things that will make you look bigger, but once you stop taking it, you shrink down again. personally, i stay far far away from any of the supplements, because most of them are targeted at bulking you up, which really isnt needed in climbing. what i do is i take a multi vitamin with a s--- of good stuff in it every day, i eat a turkey breast sandwich, i drink a frusion or two, a glass of Orange Juice, for lunch i eat a meal replacement energy bar which gives me exactly the things i need, while actually tasting pretty decent and filling, and then i'll eat a granola bar or two and then i'll eat more sandwiches at night with some gatorade or water. i started this regimen when i started climbing again, and i feel pretty darn good. my muscles and tendons definitely seem to be recovering very well because they're getting the protein and vitamins they need every day. havent really noticed any different in my body though, cant imagine i'm putting on any weight. shoulders are already starting to get pronounced though, and my forearms are starting to get some definition. really dont care about being all ripped or anything though, just concentrating on getting my body what it needs to repair itself and get stronger without adding on too much mass.
Creatine actually helps your muscles recover quicker after workouts-I inderstand that is its main benefit to people who take it.
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lokiraven
Oct 3, 2005, 11:17 AM
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I have actually used creatine off & on for years while participating in severall different sports.I have never found it to cause "bulky" area, such as my legs or abs, which I'v heard alot.In terms of climbing performance its a tough call as to weather or not it has made me stronger, as I usually lift alot while taking it.It does, however seem to hinder endurance unless I spend lots of time training for that.
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zoratao
Oct 3, 2005, 2:02 PM
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Creatine has some useful effects for climbing - it allows you to continue doing intense workouts (i.e. pulling hard) for a longer period of time which might help you complete that 5.11. It does make you retain water which seems to have a negative effect on endurance sports like running and biking in that there is less cumulative usable water in your system. Most climbing (you know that I am not talking about big walls or lengthy multipitches) falls into the non-endurance strength/power zone of working out.
I think I have found some materials suggesting that creatine can cause heightened levels of anxiety which is definitely not good for a climber. It kills the zen mind and focus that I desire from climbing anyway. I choose not to use it because it simply doesn't agree with my system. There have not been a lot of long-term studies on the safety of using it. There just seem to be too many variables to make it a good choice to consume. I suppose in the end its like everything else; caveat emptor.
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muskie
Oct 3, 2005, 2:03 PM
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I've taken creatine but only for weight lifting. It does increase gains, since it effectivly gets water to your muscles to aid in recovery(ie the bulking up stated in a previous post). However, for climbing I think it would not be worth it. It requires a loading phase and requires constant upkeep inorder for it to have any effect. It also requires a good transport, ie grape juice, and most peoples bodies can only do about 3 months on it. If not drinking enough water while taking it, you can get dehydrated really quickly since it is taking water from other needed places to move it to your muslces. If it works for you you may notice getting a little puffy and possible increase in some strength. However for climbing I've found it pretty useless. I'd reccomend, if you need to take a supplement, to just take a B vitamin. Personally, I've noticed the best results from taking these(in multi vitamin form). Also B vitamins are water soluable so if your body doesn't use it, you just urinate it out. If deciding to take a multi-vitamin, try to avoid any with chromium picolate. From what I've heard this can have some adverse affects(it is primarily used in weight loss pills but can be found in some supplements) Well hopefully this helps
ps I'm not a doctor or anything so don't take any of this as gospel. All this comes form personal experience and lots of reading.
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ajkclay
Oct 3, 2005, 2:07 PM
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Geez a lot of people talk shit.
There has been research to suggest that indeed creatine supplementation can enhance athletic performance by around 5%, particularly in events of shorter more explosive duration.
It is found in the body mainly in the form of Phospho-Creatine and is the main source of energy in about the first 10 seconds of intense activity, after which time it's availability in the muscles is largely depleted until it can be replenished.
Slow and steady supplementation has been found to have positive effects on many athletes, but it's use cannot be rushed by over-supplementation as you will simply excrete what you cannot absorb.
You will experience some weight gain due to water retention, but experimentation will let you know whether the costs outweigh the benefits.
For climbing the jury (as far as I know) is still out, so give it a go and let us know how you went. Vulcan seems to think it helped him ( I think, couldn't tell if it was sarcasm or not) and I suspect that the lack of endurance reporteded by lokiraven may be more a function of training focus, it would be interesting to look at his/her training diary during the supplementation period.
Cheers,
Adam
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kyote321
Oct 3, 2005, 2:11 PM
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creatine is great for muscle recovery and training (eg: doing campus sets or core workouts. if you take too much, you will get big. so, don't take much (like a teaspoon a day). l-glutamine is good too.
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clausti
Oct 3, 2005, 2:18 PM
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jebus...
creatine, or creatine monophosphate, which is what you supplement, allows your muscles to recharge the ADP to ATP faster. [faster recovery time.]
also, it increases the water content of the cell, making your muscles look bigger.
however, there is good, published research that says that creatine monophosphate, in addition to a workout regimin, improves performance in power sports, activities that require less than 90 seconds of peak exertion. football linemen. 100m sprinters. boulderers.
one of the benefits is that it allows you to work out more intensely, due to the faster recovery time.
if you are concerned about the extra weight, drop the creatine a week before the comp. you'll still havethe strength but none of hte water weight.
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tomma
Oct 4, 2005, 7:20 PM
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vulcan attrubutes his progress from 5.9 to 5.13+ to creatine,
if it's true, hm, it would be a serious argument..
but come on folks, anyone mentioning creatine (or other supplements of the sort) and grades like 5.10 or 5.11 in one sentence is making him/herself laughable..
if creatine gave the edge necessary to redopoint the latest route by sharma,
or onsight close to what mrazek does, then by all means go for it,
otherwise don't bother...
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rx_7addict
Oct 5, 2005, 9:24 AM
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Sorry to say it guys but most of you only touch on the real aspects of creatine. In your body you have a compound called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). Think of ATP as an energy containing compound. What is important to know about ATP is that the body can very quickly get energy from a ATP reaction. You have other sources of energy such as carbohydrates and fat - but they take longer to convert into a useable energy source. When you are doing an intense quick burst activity - such as lifting a weight or sprinting, your muscles must contract and need a quick source of energy. This immediate energy comes from ATP. When your muscles use ATP for energy a chemical process happens where the ATP is broken down into two simpler chemicals ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) and inorganic phosphate. This process of ATP turning into ADP releases the energy which gives your muscles the ability to contract. Unfortunately, we do not have an endless supply of ATP. In fact, your muscles only contain enough ATP to last about 10-15 seconds at maximum exertion. In case you were wondering - no, the ADP can not be used to create more energy for your muscles. But, here is where the creatine comes in - or more specifically the creatine phosphate (CP). the majority of creatine that is stored in the muscles bonds with abundant phosphorus stores in the muscles and is converted into Creatine Phosphate (CP). CP is able to react with the ADP in your body and turn "useless" ADP back into the "useful" energy source - ATP. More ATP in your body means more fuel for your muscles.
Creatine supplements are known to Volumize (pull water into the muscles). Some people feel that this "water retention" is bad and that when you stop taking creatine supplements your muscles just get small again. This is somewhat Incorrect. Yes, creatine makes your muscles retain water. but at the same time you are STILL BUILDING MORE muscle when doing workouts with the supplement. Some people wont at all notice "swollen muscles" and some people wont notice the water loss after discontinuing the supplements.
As for the comments on creatine helping aid in recovery please remember it doesnt build muscle. It may seem as though the muscle tears (from the workouts) heal faster but they really aren't. Its the atp replacement. You have the ability to work out at a more "strenuous" level but you still need the recovery period for optimal gains. If you are looking for better "recovery" some people point to L-Glutamine. From my understanding Glutamine is a naturally occuring amino acid that assists in protein synthesis (breakdown of protein). By taking Glutamine supplements your body is more able to use protein digested. Which in turn will help in "optimal muscle growth". Glutamine is used by your body in about a thousand different ways.
I personally use it once or twice a year for three weeks periods. Its a moderation thing. I don't want my body to get used to something it can't always have. It is nice, however, to have that great three weeks of superman workouts which will always yield larger than normal muscle gains. Muscle gains that WILL stay with me if I continue my workouts.
I guess I'm ready for the inevitable flames.
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lokiraven
Oct 5, 2005, 9:59 AM
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I wanted to add that during all my phases of taking creatine I was training for very explosive strength. Endurance may have fell simply due to a lack of training in that area. in terms of size/strength ratio. I have gotten a little bigger in the last couple years, but my strenght has increased dramatically.
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clausti
Oct 5, 2005, 11:34 AM
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rx_7...
you phrased some things in ways i woudlnt have in simplifying the biochemical explaination, but overall i agree with what you said.
the only thing i'd like to call into question is actually a reference to glutamine, which is, as you said, a naturally occuring amino acid. L-glutamine simply refers to which sterioisomer your body uses....
anyways.. "protien synthesis" is NOT (breakdown of protiens) it is, as the name say... the SYNTHESIS of protiens. thus, helping your body build protiens faster. thus, aiding in muscle growth.
and when i said "recovery time" i wasnt exactly specific enough. i meant recovery time between sets, as it were, or between problems. not recovery time as in days to rest your muscles.
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anykineclimb
Oct 5, 2005, 2:10 PM
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I like it.
It helped me put back the 20lbs I lost from my 2 long month trip to the Karakoram this summer in about 5 weeks. I'm less "flabby" now and it definately helps with recovery time following workouts. I take some 6 times a week following my workouts. I'll be on vacation for 3 weeks so it'll be interesting to see if I lose any mass. I doubt it.
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ajkclay
Oct 5, 2005, 2:39 PM
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In reply to: vulcan attrubutes his progress from 5.9 to 5.13+ to creatine, if it's true, hm, it would be a serious argument.. but come on folks, anyone mentioning creatine (or other supplements of the sort) and grades like 5.10 or 5.11 in one sentence is making him/herself laughable.. if creatine gave the edge necessary to redopoint the latest route by sharma, or onsight close to what mrazek does, then by all means go for it, otherwise don't bother...
thats a bit harsh and elitist isn't it?
individuals at pretty much any level of performance will have similar physiological response to these types of substances; so what grade in your opinion qualifies you to use them?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate for someone to use them (if indeed they work) when they are at their limit and seeking ways to improve?
Cheers
Adam
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clausti
Oct 5, 2005, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: vulcan attrubutes his progress from 5.9 to 5.13+ to creatine, if it's true, hm, it would be a serious argument.. but come on folks, anyone mentioning creatine (or other supplements of the sort) and grades like 5.10 or 5.11 in one sentence is making him/herself laughable.. if creatine gave the edge necessary to redopoint the latest route by sharma, or onsight close to what mrazek does, then by all means go for it, otherwise don't bother... thats a bit harsh and elitist isn't it? individuals at pretty much any level of performance will have similar physiological response to these types of substances; so what grade in your opinion qualifies you to use them? Wouldn't it be more appropriate for someone to use them (if indeed they work) when they are at their limit and seeking ways to improve? Cheers Adam
i think the implication might have been... that if you are working out enough that you'd get any benefit from creatine in the first place, you're probably not climbing 5.10 at your limit.
you *do* have to have a fairly rigorous working program that goes with the stuff for it to do you any good.
and besides the fact... 90 seconds or less of peak power improvement, remember? how applicable would that be to sustained route climbing, really?
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hazael
Oct 5, 2005, 3:15 PM
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well, I have a little twist to the thread, how about using L-Carnithine for fat burning?, I think we all can benefit from loosing a couple of pounds.
As far as I know(not much really), that protein helps in other stuff such as metabolism, and body temperature control, even some diseases (fat related).
I've never used such substances, but Im willing to try if they will help me improve my climbing level. But I rather want to loose fat(weight) instead of building extra muscle (muscle is heavier than fat, if Im correct that is).
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deserteaglle
Oct 5, 2005, 3:40 PM
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I thought about it for lifting, but my trainer's info. for it actually discouraged me. Once you stop you lose all the gains you made, so if you want to stay at the level you worked up to you're dependent on it. Plus it gives you the farts sometimes. Sur you might make it up a 5.13, but none of your friends are gonna believe it since they weren't there because you smell lately. :lol:
I am the walrus.
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ajkclay
Oct 5, 2005, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: vulcan attrubutes his progress from 5.9 to 5.13+ to creatine, if it's true, hm, it would be a serious argument.. but come on folks, anyone mentioning creatine (or other supplements of the sort) and grades like 5.10 or 5.11 in one sentence is making him/herself laughable.. if creatine gave the edge necessary to redopoint the latest route by sharma, or onsight close to what mrazek does, then by all means go for it, otherwise don't bother... thats a bit harsh and elitist isn't it? individuals at pretty much any level of performance will have similar physiological response to these types of substances; so what grade in your opinion qualifies you to use them? Wouldn't it be more appropriate for someone to use them (if indeed they work) when they are at their limit and seeking ways to improve? Cheers Adam i think the implication might have been... that if you are working out enough that you'd get any benefit from creatine in the first place, you're probably not climbing 5.10 at your limit. you *do* have to have a fairly rigorous working program that goes with the stuff for it to do you any good. and besides the fact... 90 seconds or less of peak power improvement, remember? how applicable would that be to sustained route climbing, really?
well, no, I do understand how it works, and I would suggest that if it has advantages at the top end of human performance then it would have advatageous benefits at the top end of an individual's performance as well.
so the use of creatine may assist a 5.10 climber move through one more hard manoeuvre (than without), which may be the difference between the route being 5.10 and 5.10a. Remember, at this grade there are routes with easy and hard sections, not sustained atp/pc pump-fests all the way, thereby allowing for some recuperation in between maximal efforts. If an increase in creatine levels within the muscles assists with replenishment, then it will apply regardless of grade of climb, and may actually benefit the easier grade climber due to the sub-maximal nature of parts of the route they are attempting, which would give the body time to replenish atp/pc stocks, and then reuse the system again (and sooner than without).
And there are climbers out there who do train regularly and yet find that 5.10 is their current ceiling, suggesting that this is their personal physical limit. We should not judge one's level of effort or capacity by the achievements of others, it's especially unfair to use elite athletic performance as the measuring stick.
Adam
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tomma
Oct 5, 2005, 4:30 PM
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at the 'power performance' website: http://www.pponline.co.uk/ there are a few good articles on creatine, also in the context of endurance sports..
i'm not denying anyone the right to grasp for whatever leads to improvement,
but i don't believe that creatine can be a decisive factor in moving from lets say from 5.10 upwards.. yes, you have to train hard to see any gains from supplements, there are no miracles..
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