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kb1dqh
Oct 11, 2005, 1:11 AM
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Hey all,
I'm thinking about applying for NOLS or Outward Bound. I've done a course with NOLS, and would prefer to work for them, but their instructor course is not cheap. Anyway, does anyone have any experience with either organization? Any suggestions or information that might be helpful about the organizations? I guess my most basic question has to do with whether one can really make a living doing it, both at the start and after gaining a few years in the program as an instructor. Thanks, kb
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superbum
Oct 11, 2005, 1:28 AM
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I am right there with you! I am also curious about personal experiences from employees of either organization. Consider this a bump...
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crackbetty
Oct 11, 2005, 1:46 AM
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I have worked for Outward Bound for seven years and NOLS for three, and it has been one of the most enjoyable parts of my life. Despite what most people say, NOLS and Outward Bound are just not that different. There are pretty fundamental differences in their mission statements, but the actual student outcomes tend to be fairly similar.
Outward Bound is an older and bigger organization. It was founded in 1941 in Wales as a sailing school with the intention of teaching sailors the skills they would need (mentally and physically) to survive if their ships were sunk in the North Atlantic by german U boats.
Outward Bound first came to the U.S. in the sixties when the Colorado School opened. Interestingly enough, one of their early instructors was Paul Petzold. He left after a few years to found NOLS with the intention of training people to lead in the wilderness.
As far as making a living at it... First I would say it's very hard work. When you're on, you're on 24 hours a day and you are completely responsible for the safety of your students. It can also take a pretty serious toll on your body. It is also incredibly fulfilling if you are interested in working with people and watching the wilderness work its magic on them.
Everyone knows you don't make much money, but if you are flexible and relatively unattached financially, it's possible to make it work. For most of the time I've spent working, I have not been paying rent or paying back loans (school or otherwise). I base out of my car and whatever branch/basecamp I am working at. In this situation I always felt like I had a lot of disposable income because when I was in the field, I literally spent nothing. After a season of working, I had money saved up, payed of my car insurance and went climbing for months.
I love(d) it, and the freedom, but like everything, it has its downsides. I found living out of my truck got old about four years into it. I also began to feel lonely. Though the connections I made with co-instructors and students were intense, it is hard to continually leave those connections behind and make new ones perhaps a few days after your last course ends. It is also relatively hard to keep other relationships going: friends, family, partners.
But overall, if you're intersted, I think you should go for it. Spending as much time in the wilderness as these jobs allow is an absolute blessing, and you really have the power to positively impact other people's lives.
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lenexa
Oct 11, 2005, 1:57 AM
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I have also been seriously considering it. I would rather apply to OB because NOLS makes you take the expensive course, while OB you just apply. Both require some experience leading trips, and both have a large application that you list every summit, rock route, expedition, river trip, ski tour and anything else you've ever done. I have worked wilderness therapy for the past few summers, and I will be doing it year round soon--I will be taking a major pay cut (50%) working OB or NOLS, but I talked to both orgs and they both said the first few years they only use you in the summer. They even have grad students that work trips in between semesters and years. So my plan is to keep my WT job and just take time off for OB treks in the summer. Maybe in a few years OB will want me to do more treks and I'll do more trips a year.
I have lived out of my van for a few years and I like it--so I might do it a few more years. I love the freedom, I climb a ton or ski or whatever on my weeks off. It is a fabulous life having two weeks on and two off. But... not everyone can live out of a van and getting a house or apt is not practical with the small wage they give you and the time you won't be there.
My advise summed: don't quit your day job.
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thilkbone
Oct 11, 2005, 2:03 AM
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I have info about both organizations and will keep it as objective as possible. Here is the answer to you last question: It is possible to make a career of this, but starting out is challenging. It is a modest living at best and most new instructors only get seasonal work (mainly summer). Once you have developed your skills and gained some seniority, you can certainly work your way up the ranks and reach a level that will sustain a simple lifestlye. If you are willing to commit a few seasons to either organization, filling in the shoulder seasons with odd jobs, it will pay off with year-round work. Keep in mind that simple lifestyle means camping out or living in your vehicle.
As for which program to choose, it is my advice to focus on which mission you would like to support. The two schools are different. Read the info on each website or catalog, and decide for yourself which one best matches your own learning philosophy. Instructors often work for many schools and organizations in there careers, and find the balance of skills and philosophies to be rewarding. Most schools will also recognize previous work. For instance, both OB and NOLS will recognize previous work experience with regard to the pay scale.
Both schools have been around for four decades, and have well defined curriculum. Systems are in place for instructor support and development, and both are flexible. Again, read the history of each school to decide what you relate to.
I would also recommend looking into your reasons for wanting to work in the field. It is work, and will be stressful at times. You’ll see some of the negative impacts of wilderness education, like the damage 14 inexperienced people can do to a natural area. At the same time, you’ll wake up every morning and think “this is my office.” The rewards for hard work are many.
Good luck.
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kb1dqh
Oct 11, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Thanks for all the info so far- it's helpful. -kb
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fungpu
Oct 15, 2005, 2:50 PM
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I'd like to weigh in here.
I'm very much in the middle of pursuing a new career in WE, and am groping for more information, so anything is welcome. I plan on taking a NOLS educator course, and am currently taking WFA, as well as AMGA RIC. Have had self rescue, avalanche awareness, etc, as well as spent most of a life time in backcountry scenarios.
What I've found out over the years is that I've enjoyed turning others
on to experiences that blew my mind like; sailing, packing to beautiful
remote places, rock climbing, back country skiing, etc. There's
something about seeing someones eyes and mind really open through
experiencing these things that completely fulfills the experience for
me.
Also, I care very much for the wilderness environment, and want to educate others about how to care for it.
Like most, making a living out of this is the conundrum.
I imagine that it will take the form of a hodgepodge of related activities vs just one to make this happen. My considerations are working for outdoor clubs and organizations on environmental management issues, education, guiding, leading, ......and I don't know what else.
My wife is an experiential educator working with disadvantaged kids in a farming, horsemanship environment, and I have interests in contributing my skills in that way too, only through WE.
lenexa, you mentioned your work in wilderness therapy. I would like to hear more about that.
I am happy to share what I've learned so far, and eager to hear from others who have info to contribute.
Thanks.
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topher
Oct 15, 2005, 3:44 PM
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Out door ed can be real fun, real hard and real wet!! i have never worked for OB or NOLS, looked into it several times, but i have worked at Strathcona park lodge, and some other small programs.. SPL, is a good place to start if you have never done any thing like that before you have a home bass, your not usualy out for months on end... week programs are the norm.. its a good way to get into the industy and build some conections.. if you love to teach and be out side it could work, but remeber its not all fun and games and its nothing like going out climing or hiking or what ever your into.. but it is fun and rewarding!
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sweetrvr
Oct 20, 2005, 10:29 PM
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I instructed for Ob in Colorado for two seasons. Great time. Definitely try to instruct in the San Juans or Sangre De Cristos and avoid the Youth discovery courses. The best part is the people you meet. Very worthwhile. I'm an officer in the Marine Corps now and wonder how in the hell I wandered away from my former life.....
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rockguide
Oct 21, 2005, 12:29 AM
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I worked for Outward Bound for around 7 years and knew many NOLS instructors (I would have changed over for variety but by the time I decided that I was looking at too substantial a pay cut ... top of one to bottom of the next).
Are the schools different? They tend to be but the instructor team makes the course what it is. Having said that the cultures have certain tendencies:
OB tends to be more interpersonal skills building and the instructors tend to be more involved in the students day to day existance. NOLS instructos tend to teach more skills and fade back in the evenings.
OB hires first and then trains later (often unpaid staff training for 10-20 days). NOLS trains first (30 day training you pay for) and then hires from the course. Not everyone is hired.
OB has a more restrictive safety policy. NOLS relies more on judgement
OB tends more towards the inner journey, NOLS to high adventure.
OB has more instructor freedom to set curriculum. NOLS tends to have more curriculum (and end up carrying more weight in pots, fishing gear, books, etc.)
Again ... it depends on the school and the team, but that is my understanding.
If you want to get in, get milage in the discipline (mountaineering, rock, paddling, deserts, etc). You will love saying hi to so many amazing people until it sinks in how often you are saying goodbye to amazing people.
you will enjoy the freedom of meeting new people and going to new places until you long for the freedom of a comfortable place with old friends.
Good for a year? yes. i loved it for 7. I know people who loved it for 15. Some endure long periods of it because there is nothing else they know to do.
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lenexa
Oct 21, 2005, 1:37 AM
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fungpu you asked that I write about wilderness therapy.
I love my job, I have done four different programs totaling more than two years worth. I graduate in december and plan on committing a few years to it, then after my PhD I may start my own. I'm sure you've heard of it before: hoods in the woods, brat camp, whatever. Basically there are 50+ programs in america and some elsewhere. They all differ in their therepeutic approach but they all have things in common. Basically the kids come in on a rolling basis, and staff come in every one or two weeks. Allmost all programs work one week shifts, then one week off. My program and a few others work two or three on and two off. I like working all at once and then traveling. It is much more stable than NOLS or OB, in that you always work, you just work every other week (or two) until you wuit. Most encourage you to take time off (and they give it easily) to avoid burnout. They also all pay better. There are a few that pay $60-70 a day (anasazi) but most are starting to start out around 100-110/day. I currently get $124/day, when you work for a bit you get paid more. It has its advantages and disadvantages. It is more stable and pays better than NOLS and OB. But you don't do anything intense at all. No big mountains, no climbing, paddling etc. You are working with kids that don't want to be there, unlike NOLS where they want to learn.
But for me its great. I am a psych major and plan on becoming a clinical psychologist so working with kids in a therapy setting is great. And working in the woods rocks. Every time I wake up early to take a walk alone, or when I'm around the fire and we're having a group session about something and a kid has a breakthrough that I helped him with--I just think "I get paid for this!" Basically there are 6-8 kids with 3-4 instructors and you hike everyday and setup and teardown camp everyday. Except two days a week when the school teacher and therapists come out to do therapy. Everything is a metaphore, and everything is about the group and the kids place in the group. It is tough: kids breaking down on the hikes, taking 8 hours to hike three miles, 6 hours to set up camp, kids that run or fight, etc. But other times the group hikes fast, sets up fast, is respectful, doesn't fake their program and are real with me, and we generally have a lot of fun together. I think its a little more rewarding to me as a budding psychologist.
That said, it isn't for everyone, people rarely last more than a year or two, unlike NOLS. Most only last 6-8 months. I sometimes want to climb something, hike faster, ski, or do something intense. Or just teach people who want to be there. Thats why I may get on with OB or NOLS and just work a few shifts a summer with normal, sane kids. I'll just take the time off from my WT job.
If you just want to get a job in the outdoors and like to help people, I'd recomend finding a program (email me) you will probably get hired at any program quick, they always need people. You could just get a job quicker than the time NOLS would take, and see if you even like living out of a car (actualy, unlike NOLS, WT makes enough to have a house, many pf my friends have a place). Oh, a lot of programs do a lot of wilderness skills, some programs more than others. I've always loved that. So if you want to make fire with sticks, make baskets, pottery, leather work, etc. its pretty fun.
Okay, I could talk forever about it, pm any specific questions.
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maimed
Oct 21, 2005, 2:32 AM
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I did an OB course before college, another after my freshman year, and then spent what would have been the first semester of my senior year working in a program at Minnesota Correctional Facility Thistledew Camp that provided services sort of like the WT that you mention lenexa. I was moved by your descriptions of your work.
I'm not sure if I meaningfully helped many of the kids I worked with in Minnesota, but the three experiences together sure helped me keep my own shit together. I couldn't have done the live out of your van and go from trailhead to trailhead kind of thing that a lot of my OB instructors did, but more power to you if you're up for it.
Good luck with the decision kb1dqh.
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