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coolpops
Aug 2, 2002, 8:10 PM
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I have heard some say the Bowline is easier to untie after climbing. I have also heard that the rewoven figure-8 is easier to tie, therefore less chance of goofing it up.
What are your opinion's on the two knots (as used for harness tie-in's).
Jeremy
edited because of poor formatting
[ This Message was edited by: coolpops on 2002-08-02 13:46 ]
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pir8penguin
Aug 2, 2002, 8:36 PM
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only a figure 8 re-thread will do.
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wiegs
Aug 2, 2002, 9:01 PM
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I find it amusing, mr penguin, that you ask what type of knot to use for a prusik chord, but are absolutely positive that only a follow-through figure eight is the only way to go for harness tie-in. well, in a gym, yes, it is. because it's harder to screw up, and easier to check. but my understanding (being a newbie an all, maybe i'm wrong) is that a modified bowline works just as well, maybe better, as it is easy to untie after being weighted.
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theamish
Aug 2, 2002, 9:15 PM
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The figure eight is only hard to untie if you fall on it alot. If you fall on your knot that frequently you should want one that is hard to take apart. Figure eights are much easier to visually inspect for correctness. For the most part it comes down to preference, but figures eights don't fail and that's a good thing.
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transse
Aug 2, 2002, 9:19 PM
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You know what, both knots will work. I have used both. My only recommendation is to pick one and only use it, so that your visual inspection is easier. I find a figure eight is easier for most people to inspect, but with time you can also see a correct bowline. My opinion runs this way... I use a figure eight most of the time due to the fact that it is a constricting knot that in theory will absorb some of your falling force making that RP hold that much more. Sure it is a bitch to untie, but in a way that is good, ey. Either way make sure you are tying them right and you'll be solid.
Jake
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fitz
Aug 3, 2002, 12:04 AM
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A *double* bowline with a Yosemite finish is bomber, has a good profile for chimneys and off widths, and is easy to untie after weighting.
That said, a rewoven 8 is theoretically slightly stronger and is easy to visually check from a distance. If you peel it back like a bananna, it is not that hard to untie, even when it is cinched up pretty tight (I haven't had to pull out a pocket knife yet...)
I used to use a bowline tie in all the time. These days, I usually use a figure 8 because everyone is used to how it should look.
-jjf
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tradklime
Aug 3, 2002, 12:20 AM
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I only use the double bowline. I find the figure 8 to be a PITA. I don't like fighting with a knot when pumped.
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wildtrail
Aug 3, 2002, 12:36 AM
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Brett has it. Yes, Brett. You are right.
Both knots will do. The "8" is said to be a little safer, but the bowline is easier to untie after weighting (I would use the double bowline and Yos backup--get the book "Freedom of the Hills", it will show you). I think that is about the only difference. I use the figure eight. Standard practice. (figure eight, same thing as "rewoven". "Rewoven" means that it is tied through the harness, otherwise it is a figure eight on a "bite")
Steve
[ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-08-02 17:39 ]
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pir8penguin
Aug 3, 2002, 2:14 AM
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let's think about this: nearly every single rope climber on the planet ties in (the alternative being clipping into an already tied knot), and most of them use a figure 8, rethreaded. this basically means that if you rope climb at all, be it sport, trad or top, you WILL encounter a figure 8, and learn that it is probably the best knot for the purpose.
rappeling is slightly different. some people don't even do it, while most just do it a couple times a day while they may climb many more times than that. i'd say most people just clip the rope through through their belay device and crank down.
it wasn't until recently that it was strongly reccommended that i use a rappel system incorporating a back up with a prusik (which i'd tied several times for other purposes with already tied loops, but never for rapel). i don't find it that hilarious that a climber whose never encountered a given situation may not know the correct, or at least a good, knot for the situation. in fact, i find it quite f*cking reasonable.
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jhwnewengland
Aug 3, 2002, 2:55 AM
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You may be right about some things, penguin, but saying that a rewoven figure 8 is the only way is just plain wrong. Wiegs shouldn't have attacked you for saying it, but then again you shouldn't say it that way unless you know it's true. The guy wanted info, not an opinion.
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jhwnewengland
Aug 3, 2002, 2:56 AM
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Actually, he did want an opinion. Sorry 'bout that...
However, I think a remark stating that it was your opinion would have been warranted.
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krustyklimber
Aug 3, 2002, 3:43 AM
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My opinion is this; I don't care how many newbies in the gym can recognize "the King of Knots" the bowline, or how much stronger than me either knot is...
I tie in everytime indoors or out with the very Yosemite finished bowline that Fitz mentioned, and Fitz don't settle because others aren't as forward thinking!
Learn to tie "the King of Knots" and save your strength for climbing!
Jeff
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scotia
Aug 3, 2002, 4:06 AM
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figure 8
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climber1
Aug 3, 2002, 4:49 AM
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I gave up the bowline when I started using a harness. I much prefer a traced eight when tying in to a harness,
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maddie
Aug 3, 2002, 5:38 AM
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i use both
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wiegs
Aug 3, 2002, 11:46 PM
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whoa, settle down. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was attacking anyone. I'm a pretty resonable person. I just thought it was interesting that you felt the figure eight was the only way to go about it. I've heard differently, and just made an observation as to your (penguin's) credibility(?) in saying that the figure eight was the only way to go. It seems to me that someone that hasn't tied the ends of a rope together wouldn't neccessarily be the best person to take his word for fact. Again, I am not intending to be attacking, just making observations, and trying to keep people informed. Fact is, the follow through figure eight is NOT the only way to go. *shrug*
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fiend
Aug 4, 2002, 12:01 AM
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When leading I only use a double bowline when leading.
I also don't care how popular it is and who can check it. I'm in enough situations where I have to check my own knot, and don't have the luxury of having someone around to check it, that I learn to check and recheck my own knots.
Ultimately you are responsible for your own safety.
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fingerjam
Aug 4, 2002, 1:34 AM
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8 all the way
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noal
Aug 4, 2002, 2:31 AM
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I use a rewoven bow-line with a yosemite finish, for two reasons.
One-It's just as strong as a rewoven figure eight (Ok, people are going to complain I said that, but screw you), aside from the fact that an 8 will take some of the force of the fall off the bottom line.
Two-I hate undoing an eight when I'm pumped
And Three ( I know I said two )- It just plain Pisses people off!!!
Have a Nice day!!!
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pir8penguin
Aug 4, 2002, 3:52 AM
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he said opinion. my opinion is that a fig8 is the only way to go, because it's quick, safe, easy, and widely known. i understand that i didn't say "this is my opinion" in the post, but since he asked for opinions i thought that most intelligent people would be prepared for such, but there is no reason to read any further into it than i prefer figure 8s.
i've seen the double bowline used with a yosemite knot, and the fact that it's so easy to untie means to me that it's that much more prone to slippage (and i'm apparently not the only person who thinks so, as my research has told me). that being said, with a yosemite safety knot, it's not likely to go anywhere. according to many "knot people" the 8 is only slightly stronger, so not much advantage there for the 8. it's a pain in the ass to untie, but to me that's a HUGE advantage for the 8. overall, it seems that both work, but the 8 is more common.
for the record, i know of several ways to tie the ends of a rope together, one of which includes a double fisherman's knot. i suppose this is about to become a general rant, so be warned, but i thought this was a forum for asking questions about things you aren't sure about, and giving answers to those that you do. if i'm going to be criticized for both, then i don't really see a point in asking or answering at all.
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jt512
Aug 4, 2002, 6:22 PM
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Quote:...i thought this was a forum for asking questions about things you aren't sure about, and giving answers to those that you do.
That is exactly what it is.
Quote:...if i'm going to be criticized for both, then i don't really see a point in asking or answering at all.
You're being criticized for answering a question that you did not know the answer to. Stick to what you really know and you won't be criticized.
-Jay
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karlbaba
Aug 4, 2002, 8:06 PM
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While I'm sure both knots are safe when tied correctly, I'm concerned that a bowline tied incorrectly is a granny knot or worse and could slip or fail.
A figure eight tied wrong is usually still bomber even though it's a mess. Except for space cases who tie half the knot and then start chatting about something, forgetting rethread!
Also, I could tie a figure eight in total darkness and nail it every time. I don't use the bowline so Bowline folks will have to speak for themselves.
Figure Eight is great for other climbing applications as well. I like to keep it simple so I can still do everything instinctively if the crap hits the fan
Peace
karl
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offwidth
Aug 5, 2002, 12:47 AM
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I totally agree with Mr. Baba, whenever I introduce someone to climbing I start them out with a figure-eight.
But I am comfortable enough with a double bowline to use it regularly.
Oh, and I find it is much easier to tie a double bowline in the dark!:D
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noal
Aug 5, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Wow, it must be that time of the month on RC dot com!!!
BOMBER BOWLINE IN THE DARK, BOMBER BOWLINE IN THE DARK, BOMBER BOWLINE IN THE DARK!!! YYEAAAHHHH!!!!!
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apollodorus
Aug 5, 2002, 1:46 AM
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The figure-8 seems easier and more foolproof. With the bowline, you have to think about the "rabbit comes out of the hole, goes back into the hole . . ."
For what it's worth, tie the bowline by first tying a simple overhand knot. Pull the free end straight until the standing end curls into a loop around it. Then, you pass the free end around the standing end and back through the loop. That way, there is no guesswork about which way to feed the free end through the loop the first time. Try this, and I guarantee you will never again tie a bowline by making a loop first, then feeding the free end through it. My guess is that the bowline evolved directly from the overhand, using the above system.
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