I'm going to pick on another pet peeve of yours, Jay, and say that steep gym climbing is to footwork as Gri Gris are to belaying. That is to say - it's not so much that you're "forced" to develop poor footwork by climbing first in the gym, any more than you're "forced" to develop poor belay skills when belaying first with a Gri Gri. However, if someone just says - here you go, have at it, the climber outside on a slab is forced to develop some rudimentary footwork immediately, and the user of an ATC is forced to acknowledge that locking off and keeping a hand on the brake strand is important. Know what I'm saying?

I'm not bashing either the gym or the gri-gri. I like and use both a great deal! I'm just pointing out that without the proper training which you often point out is so vital, both provide exceptionally fertile ground for breeding bad habits.

GO

...snip... you don't learn to campus everything unless you campus everything. Stop campusing and maybe you'll learn how to use your feet.

The problem is they don't necessarily seek out knowledgeable partners before venturing outdoors. Most of who have been around for a while would agree, I think, that the overall population of climbers has become less safe since the advent of gym climbing. Most gym climbers don't even belay safely, much less understand the additional complexities of outdoor climbing.

-Jay

worst argument / analogy yet

who can top that?

thank you speedwrong SP? I was hoping someone would call the troll out.

When I took my drivers test I took it in a manual. Cleary everyone should learn to drive on a manual blah blah blah.

The only thing that is really pure is the coke you snorted before you posted (to the OP).

Have fun in whatever you do. To me that is what climbing is about (yes I know same old argument) I'm not going to be some guide or anything like that. I learned to climb in the gym made some great friends. I enjoy climbing sport or trad. I will boulder on occassion. I love climbing but don't enjoy being cold or getting up really really early to go climb 30 min away.

end ramble

S

I'm not familiar with this term "to campus". What do you mean by that?

Rob

I'm not familiar with this term "to campus". What do you mean by that?

Rob

"Campusing" is doing moves with the feet off.

Seriously, you don't know?

Nah, milk is the only true whey.

What were we talking about again?

GO
___

I think it is a very bad idea and here's why. 20+ years ago, this was the way to go. Find a mentor and learn the tricks of the trade from them. All there was was trad. With the boom in the sport, there are way too many beginners for the "experienced" to mentor. Which means, if all the beginners were going out and learning trad, there would be far more accidents then there are now. Gyms serve a purpose. To many (including myself), it is training. To many more, it is the gym climbing that many strive for. Then for others it is a way to get started, meet other climbers and hopefully eventually learn that they don't know what climbing is all about but would like to learn more. Then they will begin to seek out the more learned climbers and go from there. If you send them all out on there own in the beginning without the honeymoon phase, then you will probably be sending a lot of them to their death.

Josh

All beginners should learn to climb outdoors on trad climbs. Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits, it does not instil the kind of knowledge and experience about safety as one gets form trad climbing, it does not give a wider understanding about climbing and rope work. It does not give any appreciation for the outdoors and the environment. It kills all ideas of adventure, of independence, of taking responsibility for your own actions, learning indoors you hand over all these things to an unknown person. Trad is the only true way!

PS I’m bored

To crack lover

I really enjoyed your first post. I started climbing in some what of a similar fashion.


as for stuff like this? Lets face it its a forum. Most of the time I say sarcastic or cynical remarks and its all in fun and games.

I still agree that it is a horrible analogy and here is why.
Let me first give you my understanding (please let me know if I'm way off)

Gym climbing is to footwork as
Gri gris are to belaying

Wow does this feel like SATs

Your two arguments are that gym climbing creates bad footwork? And grigris are ruining belaying. People shouldn't learn to belay with a gri gri they should learn on a tube belay device, hip belay, or if you are curt a foot belay.

The reason why I don't think it makes that much sense is because it is only taking one side. Sure I've seen a lot of bad footwork in the gym, and contributed my share also. But I don't think see the connection between your analogy.

Lets go take a look at the argument for gri gris. Why do some gyms have these $50-$70 devices on all of their ropes (i.e. vertical world in Seattle)? It is because it significantly lowers insurance costs.
While other gyms like Stone Gardens don't have gri gris attached to any of their ropes.

Certain people just want certain things out of climbing (dub no s---) well its the same for the gym rats. While some people might display poor footwork or never learn to lead, use a belay device and so forth, they are content with where they are. Its a fun sociable "hip" maybe way to work out. While for others, probably the majority so who have responded in this thread, either hate gyms or use them to train. Perhaps they live in an area that gets a lot of rain or the nearest climb is 4 hours away. I dunno?

One more thing while I'm still typing
To the comment about, gyms taking away money that could go towards a rack. That is great if you can climb year round. Maybe you have a woody, train with something, or are able to get out a lot. I know a lot of people who don't $40 a month to throw around to climb at a gym, so instead they belay at the gym in exchange for a free membership. It s a pretty win-win deal.

S

Edit: I still don't like waking up early or the cold

Ok after re reading that it still doesn't make sense
bottom line your analogy works if you view them both as negative things
I'm just saying their is another side to both of those. That is why I don't think it works as an analogy

ok this is my last edit (hmm or maybe it was too push 100...)
The reason why I didn't make an argument earlier is
If someone wants to believe trad is the only way to go, I don't really care.
Go ahead, live in your bubble. USA is the greatest country in the world #1
#1. Yeah look at our GDP >20% of world GDP.

It is ignoring a lot of facts and is just showing my ignorance.

At least the analogy was coherent.

-Jay
______________________
I am a dork

I really enjoyed your first post. I started climbing in some what of a similar fashion.

Let me first give you my understanding (please let me know if I'm way off)

Gym climbing is to footwork as
Gri gris are to belaying

Wow does this feel like SATs

Your two arguments are that gym climbing creates bad footwork? And grigris are ruining belaying. People shouldn't learn to belay with a gri gri they should learn on a tube belay device, hip belay, or if you are curt a foot belay.

Love the sig.

I read about far more accidents now, than when there weren't gyms. Some of this could be a result of the increased number of climbers out there, although some of it is the result of people gaining a certain level of false confidence in their skills, from what they've learned in gyms.

Handling a sixty foot coil of rope and a Grigri, in a climate controlled environment will teach one very little about rope management. A qualified instructor and some exposure to the real elements will teach a new climber much more about the realities of what they will face in nature.

It will also give them a better sense of how seriously they should take the inherent dangers that will inevitably confront them in a natural environment.

It's a cause and effect thing, or a chicken and egg thing, if you will. I don't think anyone will argue that there are more accidents now. I wasn't even around "back in the day", and I know that there are far more accidents now. But, is it because of gyms, or does the advent of gyms just coincide with it. Yes, there is some poor instruction in gyms, but there is also some excellent instruction. There is also very poor instruction outside. A few months ago, I had to come to some poor girl's rescue, because her "experienced" friend was trying to teach her how to clean an anchor and rappel 60 feet below her. After watching and listening for a couple minutes, I stepped in and offered to climb up and help her. When I went up, she had misunderstood and somehow had tied herself to the rappel rings. She was safe but she certainly wasn't rappelling anywhere. After re-explaining it, she was down in a few seconds. What if she had misunderstood a different way and ended up at the bottom a lot faster?

My point is that the way climbing is so accessible to the common man is a good thing, but because of this, some people think they are more experienced than they are. Are gyms to blame for this? No. They may help contribute to it, but to say that Gyms teach bad habits is wrong. They are there to provide an easy outlet to learn. If you learn bad habits, it is your own fault.

Josh