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stickclipper
Oct 22, 2005, 4:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And I think this prohibition against hanging belays is just f---ing silly. Outright silly. I'm serious, you old guys are embarrassing me. Stop it with the hanging belay s--- OK? DMT I have to agree with dingus in that hanging in a belay does not negate a free ascent. Hanging belays have been a recognized and accepted component of free ascents for at least as long as I've climbed (three decades). Certain belays would not be possible without them, regardless of a climber's physical and technical prowess. As much as climber's abilities have skyrocketed in the last decade or so, I find it hard to believe that we will be seeing even top rockstars free belaying from 5.14, overhanging stances anytime soon.
Yes, climbing is contrived. Yes, each genre of the game has it's own rules.
A sport climber smacks two bolts halfway up a 200 ft wall and declares that his route finishes there. Fine. No one can say that it doesn't. His starting point is the ground, stopping point the two bolts. Climb the distance between those two points without falling and you've done the route.
I consider hanging belays to be the equivalent of JC Lafaille's Biographie (14c to his arbitrary stopping point).
These are examples of a climber stopping and hanging because he/she does not have the ability to climb to the next available rest.
It is rare that a decent rest isn't available within 200-250 ft... Even those super-hard Dolomite free routes are mostly stance to stance (Huber's Bellavista is, I believe).
Speaking of Huber... Yuji linked past Huber's "marginal" stance on the Salathe and called the pitch 13d - and said he felt he'd done a "new route." I think this may well be true; like Sharma on Realization, he came a step closer to climbing the natural line without gear-assistance.
In reply to: What I find most remarkable about this thread is that the author's OP made a very good point, and yet most all here chose to ignore it in favor of this - with all due respect - silly debate. I would be very interested in hearing what you think about the idea of only calling a traditional ascent free after it has been done from base to summit without falls - hanging belays notwithstanding
Well, I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned the old "hanging-belay" argument. I knew it'd get Dingus fired up, though.
And yep, the simplest game is to climb a piece of rock from bottom to top without aid and without falling. This is, in my mind, what free climbers should aspire to.
Part of the difficulty of multi-pitch free routes is climbing pitch after pitch without falling. It's nice to free the moves. It's nice to lower off and reclimb a pitch after a fall. But it's much "freer" (ha!) to climb the damn thing without a fall. You can free all the pitches of the Nose. And then you can free every pitch of the Nose in a single push with falls. But if you want to really "free the Nose..." well, climb from bottom to top without falling.
How's this:
The definition of the Nose route begins on the ground and ends on top of El Cap; if you fall in the interval, you've not "truly" freed it. Just like a contrived beginning/end on a sport route.
Free climbing is a game, if you fall between the designated beginning/end, you've not freed the route.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: It is rare that a decent rest isn't available within 200-250 ft... Even those super-hard Dolomite free routes are mostly stance to stance (Huber's Bellavista is, I believe). Speaking of Huber... Yuji linked past Huber's "marginal" stance on the Salathe and called the pitch 13d - and said he felt he'd done a "new route." I think this may well be true; like Sharma on Realization, he came a step closer to climbing the natural line without gear-assistance.
While it's true, in some cases, that there is a stance within an eighty meter span, The real question remains whether or not a climber could conceivably and, better yet, safely belay from such a stance. I would challenge the strongest climbers on the planet to set up and free belay from even a 12a stance, especially while the climber negotiates a long, hard pitch, and then clean the belay and follow and clean the pitch - all without a rest. The difficulty of this style of ascent would become exponentially more improbable with the completion of each subsequent pitch. It is highly unlikely that we will see such a feat in our time.
As for the argument that a belay could be bypassed, the fact is that doing so isn't always an option - especially on long routes. It all depends on the route.
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benj
Oct 22, 2005, 6:30 AM
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the idea that tommy caldwell or beth or lynn didn't free the nose because they took falls, lowered down and then climbed the pitches without falls is ridiculous. an ascent without falls would be better in better style but some of you are twisting the definition of a redpoint.
i'd been thinking about the future of hard routes before i saw this post and had basically come up with this. climbers will get stronger but at somepoint short of gecko gloves there will be a limit to how small the holds than can be held will be. what probably wont be as limited is a climber's endurance. so, as has been said before, i think that the future of hard climbing will involve simul climbing to allow much longer pitches. then again, a simul climbing redpoint would be hard so maybe itll just be something along the lines of a 200m sport pitch where the belayer jugs another line while cleaning and belaying. who knows.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 22, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #29 of 62
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :roll:
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lambone
Oct 22, 2005, 1:41 PM
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I think the better question to ask is...did the "Nose" actually see a free ascent?
since the line that was free climbed is not actually the nose as most people climb it and rely's on chipped variation pitches.
Tommy and Beth's acomplishments on El Cap are truly amazing, no doubt.
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jhwnewengland
Oct 22, 2005, 1:53 PM
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In my opinion, Tommy, Beth, Lynn and Scott all freed the nose. There's still room for a "freer" ascent, though.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 22, 2005, 2:35 PM
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Now you woke me up ( and pissed me off) Lynn, Tommy and beth freed the nose. Scott TOP ROPED a crux pitch. had Scott been a member of a strong enough team that his partner could have led that pitch then he would have been part of a team free acent. that was NOT the case. as hard as he is and as close as he came he still missed the mark by a long mile.
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stickclipper
Oct 22, 2005, 3:51 PM
Post #33 of 62
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In reply to: In my opinion, Tommy, Beth, Lynn and Scott all freed the nose. There's still room for a "freer" ascent, though.
Actually, this is what I think.
(though I also think a consideration of what falling means between the designated beginning/end is interesting...)
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squish
Oct 22, 2005, 4:12 PM
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So basically the hair that you're splitting here is that they freed the nose, --but that they didn't redpoint it.
Whatever the definition of "redpoint" should be for a 3000 foot route... Personally, I don't think it applies.
Oh, and this coming from someone who calls himself "stickclipper" ? :D
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 4:32 PM
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Actually, I found out that Tommy, Beth, Lynn, and Scott used a clump of moss in the Changing Corners, as a foot hold, so the route technically hasn't even been free climbed yet.
Can we move on now?
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sidepull
Oct 22, 2005, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: Oh, and this coming from someone who calls himself "stickclipper" ? :D
I don't think there is anything wrong with or insulting about the OP's question. Style can always be improved upon. It is a much cooler claim to say that the Nose was climbed with no falls.
But just the fact that there's the possibility of a cleaner way doesn't take away from the fact that Tommy's accomplishments (as well as Beth's, Lynn's, and Scott's) were all cutting edge at the time they were achieved.
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curt
Oct 22, 2005, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: Now you woke me up ( and pissed me off) Lynn, Tommy and beth freed the nose. Scott TOP ROPED a crux pitch. had Scott been a member of a strong enough team that his partner could have led that pitch then he would have been part of a team free acent. that was NOT the case. as hard as he is and as close as he came he still missed the mark by a long mile.
Of course, unless you really care about interjecting sport climbing standards and language into trad climbing, following a pitch with no falls also constitutes doing the pitch free. I also believe that Scott has done the Nose free. He just hasn't led every pitch free--there's a difference.
Curt
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dingus
Oct 22, 2005, 5:49 PM
Post #38 of 62
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In reply to: Of course, unless you really care about interjecting sport climbing standards and language into trad climbing, following a pitch with no falls also constitutes doing the pitch free. I also believe that Scott has done the Nose free. He just hasn't led every pitch free--there's a difference. Curt
Great point. Agreed.
DMT
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: Of course, unless you really care about interjecting sport climbing standards and language into trad climbing, following a pitch with no falls also constitutes doing the pitch free. I also believe that Scott has done the Nose free. He just hasn't led every pitch free--there's a difference. Curt
I almost astounds me that statements like this are no longer considered accepted, common knowledge.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 22, 2005, 7:26 PM
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Dissagree. As i stated If scott was part of a TEAM that led every pitch free then folowing the roof free would have counted. fact was they did NOT lead every pitch he top roped a crux pitch. top ropeing simply does not count. If it did then i would be able to spray WI 5+++ for christ sake :roll:
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: Dissagree. As i stated If scott was part of a TEAM that led every pitch free then folowing the roof free would have counted. fact was they did NOT lead every pitch he top roped a crux pitch. top ropeing simply does not count. If it did then i would be able to spray WI 5+++ for christ sake :roll:
Maybe you're taking this stuff a bit too seriously. Don't blow a cork, Trad. It's just a moot discussion by a bunch of people who have little or no chance of ever achieving the feat. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Deep breaths, my friend. It must be that New England air that gets you guys so riled up.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 22, 2005, 8:03 PM
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not stressed at all, i just soloed 500 ft of perfect 5.6 7 5.7. Extreemly yummy. Putting a top rope accent in there with a fee lead is just silly. scotts effort is certainly huge and worth mentioning but he tryed and failed. The other three individuals succeded.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 8:20 PM
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In reply to: not stressed at all, i just soloed 500 ft of perfect 5.6 7 5.7. Extreemly yummy. Putting a top rope accent in there with a fee lead is just silly. scotts effort is certainly huge and worth mentioning but he tryed and failed. The other three individuals succeded.
Which route did you FS?
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petsfed
Oct 22, 2005, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: I think the better question to ask is...did the "Nose" actually see a free ascent? since the line that was free climbed is not actually the nose as most people climb it and rely's on chipped variation pitches. Tommy and Beth's acomplishments on El Cap are truly amazing, no doubt.
What? The reason the nose goes so hard is because the chipped pitches are avoided.
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mdude
Oct 22, 2005, 8:49 PM
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All parties have usa the chipped pitch that Jardine created. Don't know your history do you?
MD
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stickclipper
Oct 22, 2005, 10:11 PM
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Yep, all parties have used the Jardine traverse. Lynn Hill said that she thought it could have been done without the chisel. Doesn't matter, now, though. What is is.
As far as free ascents go... Scott Burke's should count if the others do. Obviously he didn't do it as quickly or in the style they did. But he still climbed every pitch without aid, which is the most commonly accepted criteria for "freeing" a route.
As Curt points out - and it should be obvious - no, he didn't free the Nose on the lead. But he still free climbed every pitch of the route.
(also: if toproping is not freeclimbing... what is it? Aiding? I don't think so.)
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stickclipper
Oct 22, 2005, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: Dissagree. As i stated If scott was part of a TEAM that led every pitch free then folowing the roof free would have counted. fact was they did NOT lead every pitch he top roped a crux pitch. top ropeing simply does not count. If it did then i would be able to spray WI 5+++ for christ sake :roll:
So if Burke had climbed with Lynn Hill and had followed half of the pitches free and had led the other half, you would say he freed it?
But if he leads every pitch on the route with the exception of one climbed on toprope, he didn't free it?
Strange logic there.
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rufusandcompany
Oct 22, 2005, 10:18 PM
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While you all were bickering about the qualifications of this style verses that one, it occurred to me that freeing all of those high quality pitches in a day - in any sequence or style - has to feel really f--king good. I'm jealous now.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 24, 2005, 12:02 AM
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Stick clipper. yes you got it right. lets put it in more human terms that us normal climbers can relate to. you are a sport climber so lets talk about a semi sport climb. lets say i go out and try to lead Prince Of Darkness 10c. I lead evey pitch and my partner follows. I get to the last pitch and for whatever reason be it weather , fatigue, aproacheing darkness, sudden lack of sac or whatever, I grab gear and haul my butt up past the two bolts at the crux, take a hang, cuss a bit and call myself a wimp. then i lower back down to the belay, shake out again and top rope back up past that pesky crux to the turkey ledge anchors. I DID NOT FREE CLIMB POD :roll: I wussed out and will forever know it in my heart. Now the verry next week you and i hook up. We leap frog up the 6 or 7 pitches ( It's been awhile so i don't remember exactly how many off the top of my head) and i time it just right so you get that 10c pitch 8^) we flash the rout and have fun. I am now part of a TEAM that free climbed POD as opposed to being the sole leader of a team that FAILED to free climb POD 8^) Got the logic now?
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 24, 2005, 12:21 AM
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Close counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and tactical nuclear weopens. It does NOT count in red point attempts 8^)
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