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zozo
Oct 20, 2005, 4:37 AM
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Only in America.
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t-dog
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Oct 20, 2005, 9:32 AM
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In reply to: Only in America.
yup, don't you just love it????
I know I don't, but those people tend to not be a minority, unfortunately :(
And Edge, props on instilling proud competition ethics in your climbers, trophy for you!
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clausti
Oct 20, 2005, 12:49 PM
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In reply to: Only in America.
only in america what.
only in america we have a stupid thread about this? or only in america something else? if i'm missing something here i'd sure love to be told, directly.
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t-dog
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Oct 21, 2005, 8:36 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Only in America. only in america what. only in america we have a stupid thread about this? or only in america something else? if i'm missing something here i'd sure love to be told, directly.
I'm not zozo, so I could be misinterpreting his comment, but as I understood it, only in America do you have people deliberately entering themselves in easy (relatively for them) divisions of climbing competitions so that they can win them and get the prizes/cash/recognition. Not to say it's not happening anywhere else in the world, but I can tell you first hand that I saw this being pretty rampant at the ABS comps in California.
But yes, it's also probably only in america that there is a stupid thread about this too :lol:
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angry
Oct 21, 2005, 10:27 PM
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There is a really easy fix for this.
Everyone enters as beginner (an exception can be made to intermediate by the judges). As you compete you are given points based how you've finished at events. Once you've reached a certain level of points you have to upgrade.
This does a few things. It ensures that all the advanced people have earned the right to be there, it boosts competition in the swollen lesser ranks, and it also guarantees that people continue to compete instead of simply entering one comp a year. It rewards chronic competition.
At least it works with bicycles.
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littlefingers
Nov 2, 2005, 3:23 PM
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I think the problem with sandbagging comes from all of the great prizes that can be won at the comps. For example- the winner of the beginner gets a new rope (say $130 at least) and the winner of intermediate gets a new pad (say another $130) and the winner of advanced gets a new pad and pants (say $130+$40=$170). That's hard for any climber to pass up (there is a reason the term dirt bag).
I've never sandbagged, but have definitely appreciated comp prizes. Last year was my first year of comps, and I was able to get great stuff, (having a great time doing it) until the last one where I was bumped to open. I came home empty handed, but had a great time anyway.
If we still kept divisions, recognized winners of each division, but gave prizes to only the top finishers overall (or the raffle as edge suggests)- wouldn't that keep things fair? Then noone would have a reason to sandbag, but recognition/encouragement at each level would be given. It would keep the comps more straight forward.
-m
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clausti
Nov 3, 2005, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: If we still kept divisions, recognized winners of each division, but gave prizes to only the top finishers overall... -m
i think part of the problem stemming from this is simply that not everyone will ever finish among the top in the top division. most ppl will never compete higher than intermediate. and another many will never compete in open, only advanced. prizes in the lower divisions allowed a spreading of the wealth, as it were. it gives ppl a taste, and encourages further competition, because, after all, the prizes get better as the divisions get higher.
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littlefingers
Nov 3, 2005, 8:10 PM
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clausti wrote: "it gives ppl a taste, and encourages further competition, because, after all, the prizes get better as the divisions get higher."
I agree and disagree. Prizes in all catagories give people a taste, but also encourage sandbagging. I know of at least 4 instances when people sandbagged because they needed a new crashpad (lame but true). Also, I have to say I felt very silly at a couple of comps coming home with a crash pad when the 4th place open finisher (who was much stronger than I) drove 3 hours to get to the comp and then came home empty handed. That feels lame- i don't think i deserved a prize more than she did.
Also consider people who have been climbing for 6 years who only climb once a week in the gym and then outside once a month- then enter beginning division to come home with a new rope. In the same comp 4th place open climber comes home empty handed. Seems a little off to me...
Then again, I also know that when the same people win crashpads at every comp it gets a little old. What can you do with 12 crashpads?? or rather, where do you keep them?
Overall, prizes are just icing on the cake- i mean let's keep in mind it's great to get anything for having fun. This whole post is evidence we are getting spoiled.
The fairest approach seems to be the prize raffle—even distibution and enjoyment :)
-m
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pianomahnn
Nov 4, 2005, 4:08 AM
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This past weekend I was the division I should've been in.
I'm glad I was, also. Having to actully work a problem is so much more fun that just sending first go.
w00t for honesty!!
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t-dog
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Nov 4, 2005, 5:47 AM
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A lot of good points and suggestions in this thread, and I think that this is due to the fact that competition climbing in the US is a fairly young/small sport that is still trying to figure things out.
Giving the top 3 or 5 finishers overall prizes doesn't make much sense realistically since as clausti mentioned, it doesn't provide enough motivation for other people to keep competing, and often it'll be the same small group of people finishing top dogs in a given area.
Giving prizes to the top finishers in each category increases the likely-hood of people sandbagging in order to get free gear. This could however be countered by dividing up the categories only based on the score-cards turned in and where the gaps are. Sandbagging could still be possible, but not as easy or blatant as without this. Also, attention needs to be paid to the value of the prizes to proportionaly reflect the category it was given in.
The issue of gear prizes or cash prizes is also a touchy one, especially if you live in an area where there are pro or semi-pro climbers. Since they most likely already have some sort of sponsorship deal, free gear to them is of lesser or no value, whereas cash can pay for their gas to get there, entrance fee, dinner or the next trip out to J-Tree. I've been to comps where a guy won a certificate for a free pair of brand "X" shoes, which he promptly gave away to some random person, since he was already sponsored by brand "Y".
Since most climbers in this case will most likely to fall in the Open category, maybe it makes sense to give cash prizes to all Open finishers (give them back something like 50% of the entrance fee for all and 100% or more for the top 3)
Raffles are always good as they spread out the prizes to people who couldn't place, or had a shitty day, or got bumped up a category.
Prizes are "icing on the cake", as our friend with little fingers mentioned, but if competition climbing is to grow in the US, we must acknowledge that you climb for yourself, but compete in a comp for the prize. And the issue of prizes needs to be taken seriously by the organizers of comps, and maybe even set standards within comp circuits (I know ABS is no longer but I'll use it as an example: i.e. have all regional and national comps have the same value cash prizes, and for the rest, have a given set of prizes for set categories, maybe have several sets so if someone keeps winning they don't get 5 times the same thing).
Anyways, keep the ideas rolling, brainstorming and fresh ideas are what this issue needs most!
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petsfed
Nov 4, 2005, 6:34 AM
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As has been pointed out, no matter how carefully you design your system, it will always be a little unfair and open to cheating.
Normalize into 4 divisions? That's a little unfair for the stronger (but not strongest) climbers. Consider the following situation: two climbers of almost equal skill attempt the exact same problems. They finish each problem in the same number of tries except for one problem, doesn't matter which. One climber falls one fewer times than the other. At the comps I go to, that's a 10 point difference. If by some wierd effect of chance, the division line is drawn between the two of them, the stronger climber loses. Considering they are both very similar in ability, that's not exactly fair.
And if 3 or 4 conniving individuals got to together, they could still maneuver themselves into whatever position they want.
All comp organizers can hope for is that the vast majority of competitors will be upstanding and follow a system like I do: I know that I can always perform competitively (usually top 5) of intermediate, so that's what I sign up for. And then I bust my ass to finish enough problems to be bumped out of it. I still have some strategy so I might win, but its more strength conservation than anything else.
The other option is the one used by several of my professors: look for the easy, obvious groups and call those Recreational, intermediate, advanced, but still have the open that you have to sign up for.
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clausti
Nov 4, 2005, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: The issue of gear prizes or cash prizes is also a touchy one, especially if you live in an area where there are pro or semi-pro climbers. Since they most likely already have some sort of sponsorship deal, free gear to them is of lesser or no value, whereas cash can pay for their gas to get there, entrance fee, dinner or the next trip out to J-Tree. I've been to comps where a guy won a certificate for a free pair of brand "X" shoes, which he promptly gave away to some random person, since he was already sponsored by brand "Y".
most of the comps i've been in have been formatted as you suggest with gear vs. cash prizes, where beginner [/novice/recreational], intermediate, and advanced area all gear prizes and open [/elite] division is cash. i think this works out well.
as far as the giving shoes away... lol, perfect example. nique hall is sponsored by montrail. the first place finishers in every catagory at houndears won free 5.10 shoe certificates, and he won men's advanced. kurt smith [the montrail rep] was on stage with jim horton [who was announcing] helping him give out prizes. i'm not sure if kurt made a smartass comment or not, but nique walks up there and jim goes "whatcha gonna do with that 5.10 certificate, nique?" who drunkenly answers into the microphone, "i'm auctioning off one 5.10 shoe certificate. starting bid, 40 bucks. come find me, i'm wearing a blue shirt, and i'm CUTE."
indeed.
one suggestion i heard lately from a setter who does a lot of ABS and USAC comps was to just cap each catagory. like, say each rating was represented by a 100 point range [v4-400, ect] and the problems were rated somewhere in that range. and "intermediate" was v3-v5. [assume 10 high problems are scored]. somebody with greater than, say, 6000 points could not be in intermediate. 6000 pnts? congrats, you win first place. 6001? you are in advanced. this would allow for a solid spread of 5's, a 4 or two and maybe a 6, but it woudlnt be likely to pass 9 v5's and a v6, dig?
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curt
Nov 4, 2005, 6:50 AM
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That's why I like my division--old farts. No cheating is possible. You gotta bring a birth certificate or AARP card to enter--no sandbagging. :D
Curt
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t-dog
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Nov 4, 2005, 7:39 AM
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In reply to: Consider the following situation: two climbers of almost equal skill attempt the exact same problems. They finish each problem in the same number of tries except for one problem, doesn't matter which. One climber falls one fewer times than the other. At the comps I go to, that's a 10 point difference. If by some wierd effect of chance, the division line is drawn between the two of them, the stronger climber loses. Considering they are both very similar in ability, that's not exactly fair.
In reply to: And if 3 or 4 conniving individuals got to together, they could still maneuver themselves into whatever position they want.
In reply to: The other option is the one used by several of my professors: look for the easy, obvious groups and call those Recreational, intermediate, advanced, but still have the open that you have to sign up for. |
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t-dog
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Nov 4, 2005, 7:52 AM
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In reply to: "i'm auctioning off one 5.10 shoe certificate. starting bid, 40 bucks. come find me, i'm wearing a blue shirt, and i'm CUTE." indeed.
On the bummer shoe certificates? or the cute part? ...then again, knowing you, I probably already know the answer to that one :lol:
In reply to: one suggestion i heard lately from a setter who does a lot of ABS and USAC comps was to just cap each catagory. like, say each rating was represented by a 100 point range [v4-400, ect] and the problems were rated somewhere in that range. and "intermediate" was v3-v5. [assume 10 high problems are scored]. somebody with greater than, say, 6000 points could not be in intermediate. 6000 pnts? congrats, you win first place. 6001? you are in advanced. this would allow for a solid spread of 5's, a 4 or two and maybe a 6, but it woudlnt be likely to pass 9 v5's and a v6, dig?
yeah, problem with having set targets like such is that it encourages people to "aim for 6000 points" to win. Another problem, and I've seen this with a female friend of mine, is that she would win all the comps she would go to, but since she didn't think she cranked hard enough, she would only enter Advanced, leaving Open completely empty :?
Plus, you never know for sure what bunch/ability of climbers are going to show up at your comp.
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sevrdhed
Nov 4, 2005, 2:15 PM
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Editted to add, since I know nobody will read my whole post: I forgot to mention the way I like to have comps set up. At the other gym in town, when they do local friendly comps, you don't even sign up for a category. You just register for the comp, and then they assign point values that differ each time they hold a comp. So, a V7 could be 500 points one comp, and 1200 the next.
They also assign point breaks for each category, again depending on the comp. So, to get into the intermediate category, for one comp, you'd have to get 3000 points. For the next, it could only be 700. That completely eliminates the "Sandbagging" aspect of the competitions, since you never know what a particular levels point break will be. It makes it extremely hard, if not impossible, to effectively climb at a level where you'll win intermediate every time instead of getting in advanced.
(It doesn't hurt that they also know most of the people climbing in these comps and if someone DOES end up in the intermediate category, they'll throw 'em in advanced anyway :twisted: )
Also, except for the last post, I've noticed that this thread focuses mostly on "Advanced" climbers climbing in the "Intermediate" category. How about people that are possibly "Open" climbers still climbing in "Advanced"?
In the last comp I climbed in, just a week ago, I was having a tough time deciding whether or not to climb in the "Advanced" or "Open" categories. I eventually decided to climb in "Advanced", since there seemed to be about 6 or 7 problems that I didn't think I could do. Since I entered in the Advanced category, I ended up taking 2nd place. If I had entered Open, I would've taken 5th place.
Now, is it sandbagging that I entered Advanced? The person that won Advanced is a friend of mine, and none of us really feel like we'd be able to really compete in the "Open" category. But, if all of my friends join a local comp and sign up for "Advanced", chances are at least one of us is going to win that category. Does that count as sandbagging?
Steve
P.S. The actual breakdown for the comp was either age brackets or an Open division, but for clarity, I called the age brackets "Advanced", since only the people in the "Open" category scored higher than us.
P.P.S If you want to see the results of the comp, go to www.frontslc.com
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littlefingers
Nov 4, 2005, 3:22 PM
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I second this system of not being aware of what catagory you are in until the end of the comp- everyone would climb as hard as they could, and then the results would only be clear in the end. Everyone has a chance at a prize, and each prize is earned fairly.
There would be an exception for open climbers though—they have to play fair anyway or get a bad rap because everyone knows who they are, and they're sponsored anyways...
-m
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t-dog
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Nov 7, 2005, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: In the last comp I climbed in, just a week ago, I was having a tough time deciding whether or not to climb in the "Advanced" or "Open" categories. I eventually decided to climb in "Advanced", since there seemed to be about 6 or 7 problems that I didn't think I could do. Since I entered in the Advanced category, I ended up taking 2nd place. If I had entered Open, I would've taken 5th place. Now, is it sandbagging that I entered Advanced? The person that won Advanced is a friend of mine, and none of us really feel like we'd be able to really compete in the "Open" category. But, if all of my friends join a local comp and sign up for "Advanced", chances are at least one of us is going to win that category. Does that count as sandbagging?
Yup, you sandbagged so that you could place in Advanced. "competing" in Open is sometimes not exactly possible, like for example when Chris Lindner shows up at your local comp...
I don't really see anything wrong/bad with finishing 5th in Open, that would actually be quite nice and rewarding, personally.
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sm60731
Nov 29, 2005, 7:43 PM
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yeah sandbagging is out there, but in my opinion if the comp is coordinated well everything works out. outdoors it is a little harder to do but oh well you just gotta remember who do i climb for. if you climb for the fame and money go for it, get your 5 mins and fade away after that cause more than likely you wont make it. just because you place in a comp doesnt me crap. i compete b/c i like the environment and like to see old friends i dont usually see. i've placed high in "important" comps and also lost comp to a nobody and no one saw it coming, whatever. if you are questioning what category you should be in you should probably be in the higher one... end of story.. go by that and all problems are solved
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spacemonkey07
Feb 18, 2006, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: I think that once you win a division, then you should automatically be forbidden to compete at that level again, and should step it up to the next higher level. Of course, Open is an exception to this rule.
true, this mostly works well. Although I met a guy who used to be good (but got old) and he doesn't want to compete anymore, because he always gets into a category, where he can't climb one problem at all.
I guess the should be exceptions, or some time frame in which the scores are kept.
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jaybro
Feb 18, 2006, 5:05 PM
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I'm with Curt, get to old fart division and at leas that part is simpler.
Btw, pages back I've never heard That description of the B-n system either. I'd always seen as multiple people could do a B-2
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mlind4s
May 5, 2006, 11:52 AM
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My 8YO was bumped from "kids" past boys rec to boys intermediate because of the difficulty of the routes he did. He was disappointed at not winning but He understood that because he was doing harder routes it wouldn't be fair to the "real" kids. he did not come in last but that division has high schoolers in it and he is a second grader I told him he should be honored to be bumped up like that. He likes to win but for him it is mostly pushing himself to climb the best he can. He has won in his age division several times but mostly he likes talking with other climbers and being challenged. Anyone who purposely sandbags is only cheating themselves. Will you look fondly at your new chalk bag and wistfully think back about how you climbed badly so you could stay in that easy division and keep all those flashes?
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keinangst
May 5, 2006, 1:25 PM
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Short of instituting a nationwide, regulated system (like bike racing or golf handicaps), I still stand by the percentile aka "hidden" system that I posted up on the SEC website...someone linked to it earlier.
Right now, the only people who are incentivized to climb as hard as possible are typically the old farts and the open divisions (and the complete beginners). Everyone else always has the sweet, sweet taste of sandbagging on the tips of their tongues. So keep the divisions secret until the results are in.
Even if you don't win a category, you at least have a percentile number on how you did overall. With widespread acceptance of such a system, your percentile history could even segue into some future handicap system or whatever. That's just a far-off brainstorm...
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addiroids
May 5, 2006, 2:11 PM
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I belong in the Spectator division.
Clausti, instead of worrying about people dropping a division, climb so hard that you get blamed for it. That would be way hot.
I'm light.
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clausti
May 5, 2006, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: I belong in the Spectator division. Clausti, instead of worrying about people dropping a division, climb so hard that you get blamed for it. That would be way hot. I'm light.
i just thought it was disgusting. in my experiance, more of a problem at gym comps where the setters/judges/scorekeepers/holders of the bump are close personal friends/classmates of all of the most serious/frequent climbers. you know what i mean.
PS this is a pretty old thread. seems like it just wont die. maybe that's because this continues to be a problem?
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