|
jcshaggy
Nov 16, 2005, 9:29 PM
Post #76 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 340
|
First post I'm making since I got to London. Interesting seeing as I'm in the process of applying for an infantry regiment in the British Army. I'm amazed at how little media coverage is given to the war in Iraq-people seem to be more interested in reality talent shows and celebrity gossip over here.
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Nov 16, 2005, 11:32 PM
Post #77 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
Imagine if we were to pull back a few miles, for a moment ditch our agendas and peferences and so forth, and ask a simple question: Is our mission in Iraq working, or not? If we cannot mutually define and agree what that mission is, we're buggered. At some time we'd also have to decide on some criteria to determine what the mission is worth in terms of human lives and hard cash. A simple cost analysis.
As always, the trick here is to avoid lofty bullshit and idealistic blue wind. Are we doing the job to our satisfaction, or not? Are we pleased with the results relative to the costs? What is an acceptable cost for our mission? What is too much?
Where do we go from here, and why?
JL
|
|
|
|
|
iltripp
Nov 16, 2005, 11:53 PM
Post #78 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1607
|
In reply to: Imagine if we were to pull back a few miles, for a moment ditch our agendas and preferences and so forth, and ask a simple question: Is our mission in Iraq working, or not? If we cannot mutually define and agree what that mission is, we're buggered.
Therein lies the problem... I don't think the mission has ever been satisfactorily defined. Before we argue about the efficacy of our mission, we have to agree on what the mission is. Both 'sides', to put it simply, seem incapable of doing this.
|
|
|
|
|
danooguy
Nov 17, 2005, 2:23 AM
Post #79 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2002
Posts: 3659
|
In reply to: I remember the thread in question, dano. I think you're seeing something that wasn't there. Pedro's statement and subsequent explanation made perfect sense and were, in my opinion, nowhere near as inflammatory as you seem to think.
I appreciate your response, Illtrip. You may think what you wish. Pedro's comments about "serving" one's country came in the wake of many threads about veterans and so on, threads in which he was silent because he has never served.
|
|
|
|
|
danooguy
Nov 17, 2005, 3:15 AM
Post #80 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2002
Posts: 3659
|
Rufusandcompany: In reply to: Who the fuck are you to call people creeps, because their views about this war differ from yours.
I don’t toss such terms about on this or any other board in a casual fashion. Anyone that likens paying taxes to “serving one’s country” deserves far worse than what I provided for the creep in question. You wish to disagree with the war? Fine. You wish to disparage those that are giving their lives and their limbs with flippant comments like the one huge made? You get an the intellectual black eye you deserve on this or most other boards and you’ll get worse if you have the balls to say the same in the company of those that have served.
In reply to: Questioning our government's actions is part of our Constitutional responsibilities, as citizens. If you don't like it, too fucking bad.
You may question what you wish. You may not so easily disparage those that have served this country to give you that privilege of questioning.
In reply to: I get so sick of blindly patriotic war mongers like you…blah, blah, blah
Warmonger? If you’d ever served, you’d realize that the last thing any soldier, sailor, or airmen wants is war. But again, you’re obviously trying to puff up your chest and bolster your image by “taking on” danooguy. You’ll have to do better than chest beating and flimsy posturing, Spanky.
In reply to: BTW - The first stupid remark out of your mouth, about me being some tree hugging liberal, will get you a big FUCK OFF. I am a Republican, and I am ashamed of this administration.
I’ve read about a half dozen of your posts on this board. You’re not impressive; in fact, you’re rather unimpressive, so I could really care less about you or your politics or what you do or do not call yourself or consider yourself. The above captioned quote proves you’re a lightweight.
In reply to: I was born in this country. I studied, work, pay taxes, and would stand against anyone who landed on these shores and tried to hurt my loved ones. I would fucking die defending this turf
Really? You studied, worked, and paid taxes? Good grief, you must be what, 14 years old? Talk is cheap, kid. Come see me after you served this nation day and night for four years or more. Understand what the word “serve” really means. Than we’ll see how you feel when some asshole like hugepedro left-handedly mocks those that gave their time, their blood, their limbs, or even their lives so that you could have the right to blow hard as you did in your response to me.
In reply to: As for the soldiers, they are the pawns, because they believe in their corrupt commander in chief, but, unlike Vietnam, these soldiers weren't drafted. They volunteered.
What a perfectly idiotic, slanderous, comment. No wonder you so quickly begin frothing and screeching to aid hugepedro. Clearly you are cut from the same cloth.
I would love to see you walk up to any one of those “pawns” that provide you with your freedoms and watch you say that to his or her face. It would be interesting to see just how many teeth you have left when you regain consciousness.
But then, you’re not a complete asshole. You actually "serve" more than hugepedro. You study, work, and pay taxes, right?
|
|
|
|
|
danooguy
Nov 17, 2005, 3:17 AM
Post #81 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2002
Posts: 3659
|
vivalargo:In reply to: At some time we'd also have to decide on some criteria to determine what the mission is worth in terms of human lives and hard cash. A simple cost analysis.
You've got to be kidding.
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Nov 17, 2005, 4:35 AM
Post #82 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
In reply to: vivalargo: In reply to: At some time we'd also have to decide on some criteria to determine what the mission is worth in terms of human lives and hard cash. A simple cost analysis. You've got to be kidding.
I couldn't be more serious. You skipped over another crucial part of my drift: That most people get so caught up in patriotic distortions and justifications and "reasons" that they can't clearly see what is happening and address things from there.
What exactly is our mission, Danoguy? Like any mission, or any climb, an experienced person figures out beforehand what the risks are and what he is willing to sacrifice in the face of that risk. Otherwise you're free soloing--and nobody can do that indefinately.
IF you can clearly define our mission, do you think we are accomplishing it to your satisfaction, or not? And is the cost worth the gain--and here you may be tempted to defy my first comment--to get lost in "patriotic distortions and justifications and "reasons." This is a very hard one to look at objectively, but without some objective perspective, we are really and truly hosed.
JL
|
|
|
|
|
phatcat
Nov 17, 2005, 4:41 AM
Post #83 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 30, 2004
Posts: 598
|
In reply to: ...that is the point of us being over here. to prevent another attack on american soil we have met the enemy face to face...
yeah, its a good thing we invaded before saddam sent all those WMD's our way!
:roll:
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Nov 17, 2005, 5:33 AM
Post #84 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: In reply to: That is true, although I already explained myself to you. Are you just looking for an excuse now to call me an asshole? BTW - go easy on the assumptions about passion and coloration. I have closely followed this situation for as long as Bush has been in office. This isn't about passion, and my views are not colored by anything. Dano's was blantantly and viciously judgmental, so I addressed it. Don't make more of it than there is. I am in no way trying to look for an "excuse" to call you an asshole, Rufus. But give me a break....making more of it than there is?!??!? I addressed one small line in your diatribe...I hardly think that qualifies as making a mountain out of a molehill. Believe me when I say this, Rufus; I really am not saying this to be rude or hurtful....but are you capable of simply clarifying yourself and/or giving an apology without always having an excuse to chase it with?
Newbie,
I owe you no apology. I was talking to Dano, not you. My diatribe? Now you are the one tossing insults. I don't mean to sound short with you, but you are making something your business, when it has nothing to do with you.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Nov 17, 2005, 5:49 AM
Post #85 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: Rufusandcompany: In reply to: Who the f--- are you to call people creeps, because their views about this war differ from yours. I don’t toss such terms about on this or any other board in a casual fashion. Anyone that likens paying taxes to “serving one’s country” deserves far worse than what I provided for the creep in question. You wish to disagree with the war? Fine. You wish to disparage those that are giving their lives and their limbs with flippant comments like the one huge made? You get an the intellectual black eye you deserve on this or most other boards and you’ll get worse if you have the balls to say the same in the company of those that have served. In reply to: Questioning our government's actions is part of our Constitutional responsibilities, as citizens. If you don't like it, too f---ing bad. You may question what you wish. You may not so easily disparage those that have served this country to give you that privilege of questioning. In reply to: I get so sick of blindly patriotic war mongers like you…blah, blah, blah Warmonger? If you’d ever served, you’d realize that the last thing any soldier, sailor, or airmen wants is war. But again, you’re obviously trying to puff up your chest and bolster your image by “taking on” danooguy. You’ll have to do better than chest beating and flimsy posturing, Spanky. In reply to: BTW - The first stupid remark out of your mouth, about me being some tree hugging liberal, will get you a big f--- OFF. I am a Republican, and I am ashamed of this administration. I’ve read about a half dozen of your posts on this board. You’re not impressive; in fact, you’re rather unimpressive, so I could really care less about you or your politics or what you do or do not call yourself or consider yourself. The above captioned quote proves you’re a lightweight. In reply to: I was born in this country. I studied, work, pay taxes, and would stand against anyone who landed on these shores and tried to hurt my loved ones. I would f---ing die defending this turf Really? You studied, worked, and paid taxes? Good grief, you must be what, 14 years old? Talk is cheap, kid. Come see me after you served this nation day and night for four years or more. Understand what the word “serve” really means. Than we’ll see how you feel when some asshole like hugepedro left-handedly mocks those that gave their time, their blood, their limbs, or even their lives so that you could have the right to blow hard as you did in your response to me. In reply to: As for the soldiers, they are the pawns, because they believe in their corrupt commander in chief, but, unlike Vietnam, these soldiers weren't drafted. They volunteered. What a perfectly idiotic, slanderous, comment. No wonder you so quickly begin frothing and screeching to aid hugepedro. Clearly you are cut from the same cloth. I would love to see you walk up to any one of those “pawns” that provide you with your freedoms and watch you say that to his or her face. It would be interesting to see just how many teeth you have left when you regain consciousness. But then, you’re not a complete asshole. You actually "serve" more than hugepedro. You study, work, and pay taxes, right?
Dano,
You are an even bigger disappointment than I originally thought you were. You know absolutely nothing about me, my background, associations to soldiers, etc. As for the kid comment, I was born the fifties. Don't talk to me about intellectual black eyes, either. It takes integrity in conjunction with sound logic to inflict such a thing, and I have yet to encounter the combination from anyone on this site. The only person that I know to have real integrity is BOBD. As for anyone else, so far, none of you has yet earned my respect. That isn't so much an insult to many seemingly descent people on board. I am simply saying that I have the better sense not to ever judge a person by some words on a website, unlike you, who in one post, made several ignorant assumptions. You, my friend, are anything but impressive.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Nov 17, 2005, 5:51 AM
Post #86 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: vivalargo: In reply to: At some time we'd also have to decide on some criteria to determine what the mission is worth in terms of human lives and hard cash. A simple cost analysis. You've got to be kidding.
In my opinion, JL has got it right. Soon, GWB and company will be directly responsible for the deaths of more Americans than Osama Bin-Laden. That isn't to say that sacrifices aren't necessary to protect our interests, but it is something to consider. Is the mission worth the price we are paying, particularly if that mission is not being accomplished?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
newbierockstar
Nov 17, 2005, 6:19 AM
Post #87 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 1010
|
In reply to: My diatribe? Now you are the one tossing insults.
In reply to: I don't mean to sound short with you, but you are making something your business, when it has nothing to do with you.
When the country's borders need protecting by vigilant, studious, law-abiding taxpayers, we'll be sure and give you a call.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Nov 17, 2005, 6:33 AM
Post #88 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: In reply to: My diatribe? Now you are the one tossing insults. Wow...I didn't realize that using the word diatribe constituted an "insult"...I'll be sure and use smaller words next time so as not to further "offend". My sincerest apologies to your sensitive eyes. In reply to: I don't mean to sound short with you, but you are making something your business, when it has nothing to do with you. Your statements regarding military personnel have *everything* to do with me, more than they even apply to you, so you can spare me the sanctimonious psuedo-intellectual bullsh!t. When the country's borders need protecting by vigilant, studious, law-abiding taxpayers, we'll be sure and give you a call.
Do you feel better now that you have gotten that off your chest, Newbie? How is it that things regarding military personnel have more to do with you than me? Are you even aware of how presumptuous you sound right now?
|
|
|
|
|
newbierockstar
Nov 17, 2005, 6:44 AM
Post #89 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 1010
|
In reply to: How is it that things regarding military personnel have more to do with you than me? Are you even aware of how presumptuous you sound right now?
Until then, feel free to continue to speak for others who you do not know and do not appear to respect. After all, they are the ones who help secure your right to be such a self-righteous prig.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_reality
Nov 17, 2005, 2:45 PM
Post #90 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 2073
|
In reply to: Soon, GWB and company will be directly responsible for the deaths of more Americans than Osama Bin-Laden.
Worth repeating.
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Nov 17, 2005, 4:17 PM
Post #91 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: In reply to: How is it that things regarding military personnel have more to do with you than me? Are you even aware of how presumptuous you sound right now? Well, tell you what, Ken...when you get back from carrying around a semi-automatic rifle 24 hours a day, sleeping with a flak vest across your chest and being mortared while you sleep, then you can debate me on the merits and particulars of military service. Until then, feel free to continue to speak for others who you do not know and do not appear to respect. After all, they are the ones who help secure your right to be such a self-righteous prig.
You're still not telling me anything, Newbie. What is it that you are trying to say? Please be specific. I do not consider my suggesting that you qualify your statements and my being a self-righteous prig. Are you trying to tell me that you were in the war? If so, then say it.
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Nov 17, 2005, 5:07 PM
Post #92 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
In reply to: As for anyone else, so far, none of you has yet earned my respect.
Well, damn.
Maybe that's why I haven't been sleeping well at night.
:roll:
|
|
|
|
|
iltripp
Nov 17, 2005, 5:16 PM
Post #93 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1607
|
In reply to: In reply to: As for anyone else, so far, none of you has yet earned my respect. Well, damn. Maybe that's why I haven't been sleeping well at night. :roll:
I am also rather disappointed...
:cry:
|
|
|
|
|
thorne
Deleted
Nov 17, 2005, 5:31 PM
Post #95 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: The only person that I know to have real integrity is BOBD.
Yeah. That Bobd is a real standup guy. Never one to take the low road in an effort to save face. You're a funny guy.
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Nov 17, 2005, 5:39 PM
Post #96 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
In reply to: Until then, feel free to continue to speak for others who you do not know and do not appear to respect. After all, they are the ones who help secure your right to be such a self-righteous prig.
This is a perspective that I often see and I think it's worth investigating. The underlying claim--if I have this right--is that anyone fighting for the US is catagorically fighting for the freedom of all Americans, and in fact that freedom is a direct result of the fighing. In other words, without the fighting, we wouldn't be free.
I don't at all wonder if I value my freedom--I do. Nor am I so idealistic as to believe that fighting is not sometimes required to maintain our freedom. That's "fighting the good fight" that we so often hear about. Likewise, to some managable degree, I think we should always go after those who attack us--i.e., 9/11.
I also believe that by and large, unless our freedom is actually and directly threatened, we are betraying those in uniform by making them fight for reasons ranging from specious political shite to outright lies, reasons that have nothing to do with our freedom, or addressing injuries done us by others. I also believe it is partiotic to keep probing into a situation to discover if the military is being used or misused for reason having nothing to do with either our freedom or true interests. That's why I have been pressing for a comprehensive definition of our mission in Iraq. Once we know that, we can talk about the appropriatness of having, or not having, thousands of young men and women getting blown away on the ground in a foreign country.
Questioning whether soldiers are dying for valid or sketchy reasons is not disrespectful of the soldiers, rather it's simply making sure we agree these folks are dying for noble, essential and defensible reasons.
JL
|
|
|
|
|
rufusandcompany
Nov 17, 2005, 5:58 PM
Post #97 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2005
Posts: 2618
|
In reply to: In reply to: The only person that I know to have real integrity is BOBD. Yeah. That Bobd is a real standup guy. Never one to take the low road in an effort to save face. You're a funny guy.
Thorne,
Unlike you, about whom I know nothing except that you take pleasure in gratuitously harrassing and disparaging people online, I do know Bob. We lived in the same town, knew the same people, talked in person about real life, and he has COMPLETELY proven himself to be a stand-up guy in his community. You aren't even willing to post a photo of yourself.
Unless you know him on that level, then you are doing nothing more than you ever do in here - shooting your mouth off.
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Nov 17, 2005, 6:18 PM
Post #98 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: Yeah. That Bobd is a real standup guy. Never one to take the low road in an effort to save face. You're a funny guy.
That's the difference between you and me Thorne...I am the same person on the internet as I am in person.
Good or bad.
What you see is what you get.
No fake name (Bumblie), I have no need too. What I say I stand by.
I would never in my life worry about saving face to you or 99-per-cent of the wankers on this site. You are not that important in my life.
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Nov 17, 2005, 6:24 PM
Post #99 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
Good post Largo. Blind patriotism is a very scary and dangerous shield of armor to stand behind.
It lacks insight, planning and vision. It relies on emotion...not logic.
|
|
|
|
|
thorne
Deleted
Nov 17, 2005, 6:27 PM
Post #100 of 481
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
From what I've heard from people who know him, Bob is a good man. The point here (at least from my POV) is that holding Bob up as the lone example of character of all the users of this site, despite the fact that he occasionally stoops to lowbrow behavior and the fact that there are a number of good and decent users here, your post smacked of the arrogant elitism that you sometimes display.
To put it another way, saying "all of you are beneath consideration.... except my pal Bob", comes across poorly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
