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jt512
Nov 18, 2005, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: Based on your posts, you may be one of the few people in the world who has a copy of this lying around...
No, I don't. In fact, I don't even have a decent exercise physiology text at the moment, unfortunately.
We know that the immediate effect of aerobic exercise on muscle is catabolic, but that, later, protein synthesis is stimulated, and I've seen several papers that showed that net total body protein balance is positive; however, none of those studies addressed protein balance at specific muscles. So, it seems possible that a runner, for instance, could develop leg muscles at the expense of muscle in the upper body. If that is the case, then a high volume of aerobic exercise might be detrimental to climbing strength. Intuitively, I don't think that it is a problem: I've met too many serious bicycle racers who climb 5.13. Even if their upper body muscle mass has sufferred due to their aerobic training, it is likely that this disadvantage has been offset by improvements in their strength-to-weight ratio. Nonetheless, out of scientific curiosity, I'd like to find a more rigorous answer.
Jay
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toeknee
Nov 18, 2005, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: While the closest rock gym is quite good, it is just too far away for me to become a regular member, so I ended up joining a traditional gym near the house.
Many good suggestions above, but don't forget to climb! Weights, yoga, running, swimming are all great exercises and have their purpose, but if you want to climb harder then get in more climbing.
Build a woodie in your basement, put a hang board in your apartment, find something in the neighborhood to boulder on. There are many posts, books, websites, and magazine articles to give you ideas on building a woodie and setting up a training schedule.
Took me a couple years to figure this out, guess it was just too obvious.
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crackboy
Nov 18, 2005, 10:42 PM
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jay
youre talking muscle remodeling. boils down to the muscle you use get bigger the ones you don't get smaller in order to allow for more resources to go to the used muscle. this is not an overnight occurance, so if you have a balenced workout you won't end up looking like t-rex.
i don't have time to dig up some papers, but if you are so inclined, look up AMPK ( amp dependent kinase) and PDK4 (pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase) both of these act to inhibit glycolysis when atp levels/glycogen stores get low resulting in a switch over to lipid metabolism.
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jt512
Nov 18, 2005, 11:09 PM
Post #29 of 38
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In reply to: jay youre talking muscle remodeling. boils down to the muscle you use get bigger the ones you don't get smaller in order to allow for more resources to go to the used muscle. this is not an overnight occurance, so if you have a balenced workout you won't end up looking like t-rex.
The point isn't how somebody is going to look. You're a scientist, right? Act like one and dump the hyperbole. Regardless of how long it takes, if a high volume of aerobic activity is catabolic to the upper body muscles, then the climber's training is going to be diverted to resynthesizing this muscle. The question is whether or not this is a significant disadvantage to the climber.
In reply to: ...look up AMPK ( amp dependent kinase) and PDK4 (pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase) both of these act to inhibit glycolysis when atp levels/glycogen stores get low resulting in a switch over to lipid metabolism.
Everybody knows that when glycogen stores run low, that muscles burn more fat, which isn't the point. They burn more amino acids, too.
Jay
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wyomingclimber
Nov 19, 2005, 6:46 PM
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Jay:
Is it possible that the protein that's consumed through long periods of aerobic exercise is from the muscle being used--i.e. part of a biker's leg muscle is consumed during riding to provide general energy and then is repaired to be stronger (the training effect) and that, say, the upper body of a biker would just atrophy at the same rate as that of a couch potato?
It's a subject that I've never really thought about. Doesn't really seem to have much of a bearing on creating a training schedule, but interesting in a purely academic sort of way...
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martinheynert
Nov 19, 2005, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: You really don't need to worry too much about aerobic activity canabalizing muscle mass. Very little of your energy comes from protein even in really long efforts. In your first 1/2 hour, you're burning primarily muscle glycogen and fat with virtually no contribution from protein. At 2.5 hours, glucose has increased its contribution but protein is probably still under 5%. At 5 hours, glucose has completely supplanted muscle glycogen, but protein still only contributes about 10-15%. As far as working out in the a.m. before you eat, it's always the Germans that bring this up. Is there a German language study out there that I don't know about? Or is it just an excuse for them to go straight to the cigarrettes :P |
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thrmaln
Nov 19, 2005, 7:58 PM
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Hello Everyone,
Thanks for all the great replies. I think I am going to stick with the Yoga and also work in some workouts on the assisted pullup bar. As for swimming, I plan to just swim laps at first to build up endurance and get my body use to swimming long distances, then after a bit I plan to do the interval training that was mentioned earlier in this post.
Thanks again everyone,
Marc Webster
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crackboy
Nov 21, 2005, 9:20 PM
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in order to get any muscle growth you need to have some breakdown of muscle protein as well. its just a matter of increasing the rate of protein synthesis more than the increase in the rate of protein degredation. That initial muscle breakdown is a source for AA as well as your diet. so no i don't think its going to be a disadvantage
you are not going to cannibilize your non exercised muscle in the timeframe of training unless you are starving yourself. cardio training is going to help with overal fitness. first. it will allow a better response to activity, so you get increased bloodflow with minimal effort, so you heart isn't workin as hard, saving energy for contracting muscles. secondly, with cardio type training (assuming endurance) you increase capilary density which is going to help keeping you from fatiguing by allowing more oxygen to the muscles.
all of that is going to help the climber maintain force output for longer amounts of time. besides running/endurance type things is not the best for muscle size since it leads to smaller fibers. thats why you need a balenced training regime
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thrmaln
Nov 21, 2005, 10:13 PM
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Hello again,
Well this thread ended up with some serious discussion about physiology and how it pertains to working out. So with that said, can someone in the know break all the medical related discussion into laymens terms sort to speak so we can all follow along.
I have decided to do the following since it works with my current schedule.
Monday Evenings - Yoga (1 hr), some pullups on machine after yoga
Tuesday Evenings - Swim Laps around 500-800m with breaks here and there. (intervals at a later date)
Wednesday Evenings - Pilates, spinning, racquetball or weights. Maybe switch it up!
Thursday and Friday - No workout
Saturday and Sunday - Climb at least one day per weekend. Both if possible.
Thanks again for all the great replies everyone.
Marc Webster
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chadnsc
Nov 21, 2005, 10:57 PM
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Before you go an base your training off of advice from this site I would recommend checking out Clyde Soles "Climbing: Training for Peak Performance". This book directly addresses the questions your asking. You may also want to look at Eric Horst's "Training for Climbing".
Good luck.
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wyomingclimber
Nov 22, 2005, 6:50 PM
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Okay, with no jargon at all:
Your training program looks great for overall fitness, but probably isn't going to do much for your climbing.
Yoga's nifty, but frankly flexibility in climbing is overrated. If your foot's above your head on a route, you probably read the sequence wrong. And I've never found balance tricks (ie Yoga, slacklining) to transfer to on the rock balance. Overall, the most transfer from Yoga would be mental calm, which can be very helpful in climbing.
Swimming is kind of the opposite of climbing in many ways. Gravity, by definition, isn't acting upon you.
Racquetball? Obviously no. Weights once every two or three weeks? Nope. Pilates? I used to think so, but most off-the-rock core training doesn't seem to transfer well.
Climbing on the weekends? Now you're getting somewhere. Honestly, many of the gains you make early in your climbing career come from technique and not fitness.
Obviously, a generally fit person is going to climb better than a couch potato, so it's not like you're wasting your time. But from the standpoint of really focusing on your climbing, this is not an ideal schedule...
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thrmaln
Nov 22, 2005, 7:56 PM
Post #37 of 38
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Hello wyomingclimber,
Thanks for the reply. My main goal with going to the gym is to increase endurance and lose weight. I am a big guy at 6'3" and 230 lbs. My strength to weight ratio really sucks right now and I would like to lower it as much as possible with as little a detriment to any climbing ability I already have. I wish I had a climbing gym nearby, but unfortunately I dont. As for climbig, the weekends is all I have since it gets dark before I get home and there is no bouldering in my area just to play around on. I am progressing in climbing at a good rate and I see results to new teqniques and my abilities are improving every time I get out. I climb in the 5.10 range on TR, lead in the 5.8-9 range sport and Trad around 5.5 now and am working on getting to the point where I can lead 5.10 sport by next spring and 5.9 trad. I am in no hurry to get there and if it takes longer then I am totaly cool with it.
In the meantime, I just want to make the best of the training facilities I have at my disposal to bring myself into better shape and build some core muscles. I am a design engineer by trade, so I spend a good deal of my day on my ass in front of a computer and I want to counteract the effects of sitting around all day. I do the Yoga for relaxation, and I have never been able to touch my toes and hope I can become flexible enough to one day do it. The swiming is for Cadio and endurance and the other stuff just to have fun. Once the days become long again, I will not need the gym as much and can climb twice a week after work on my way home like I did all summer.
Best regards,
Marc Webster
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eastvillage
Nov 22, 2005, 8:21 PM
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I think using gym time in the winter to increase your overall fitness is an excellent idea.
The higher your overall fitness, the better.
Spring comes soon enough and you can then get on rock more.
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