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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 12:36 AM
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For years I have heard people talk bad about clipping in on a figure eight rather than a figure 8 follow through to the harness. I am curious about people's feelings on this, since I have to admit the only time I do use a follow through is if I am on something that I think I will take hard lead falls on. I know have heard people say that clipping in on a bite should never be done, since it "adds another link in the chain that could break" and also since "it could tension on a crossload" but I have noticed that most climbing walls use a knot on a bite and big locker for topropes. Now, I am sure I will get flack for it, but when I got into climbing all the people I learned from clipped rather than tied. As I have taught people I always tell them what the industry standard is, but feel that I am a small hypocrite. So in short what are peoples feeling on this and are there any recorded instances of accidents related to this topic. Another reason I ask is because I see a lot of climbers tying in, and the knot is not tight or neat. I wonder how safe that know is compared to what seems like a insignificant chance of crossloading on a carabiner?
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wonderwoman
Nov 22, 2005, 12:43 AM
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I saw a friend clip in on a bite on top rope years ago. For some reason when she fell, she flipped upside down and backwards. I think the fat end of the locker sort of adjusted itself funny when she weighted it. It was weird. I don't know why she thought it would take too long to tie in, but she never did that again.
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veganboyjosh
Nov 22, 2005, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: what seems like a insignificant chance of crossloading on a carabiner?
it only takes once.
why risk it? to save 15 seconds?
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catbird_seat
Nov 22, 2005, 12:51 AM
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I would only do it if it was a backup when jugging a rope or for glacier travel when the forces tend to be much less. For leading you'd want to have two locking biners. It's easier to tie in with a follow through figure eight.
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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 12:56 AM
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Can't say that in any of my lead/toprope falls I have ever had a bad experience, with falling backwards.
In terms of the time remark, I don't do it so much because of time, it is much more convenient being able to tie people in midline when climbing on shorter routes, and also when setting up belay stations, or when climbing into a crowded hanging belay.
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rockguide
Nov 22, 2005, 1:25 AM
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Industry standard ... wow. There are so many different ways all claiming to be right. Local heros often state the standard and can be right or wrong. Though much maligned, national groups like the AAC and the AMGA can help gather excellent information from local areas and help do away with myths.
Most climbing gyms I have gone to (and all that I work at) require climbers to tie in (the exception is for the autobelayer) Many harness manufacturers are indicating that tieing in, not clipping in is the standard and Petzl insists on clipping in with two lockers, not one. Clipping in is down mostly for speed (birthday parties and portable walls) Although a good instructor can tie someone in directly in 20 or so seconds.
Clipping in does not save time if you are good. be good. At the risk of sounding like Napolean Dynamite, "I can tie in in 20 seconds".
Outdoor climbers around all the places I went over the last 23 years tie in, not clip in. I have seen perhaps a couple dozen parties using the clip in method for rock and I have never seen anyone clip in for a lead. Ever. Some speed climbers on in Yosemite apparently do it as part of setting speed climbing records but their skill level can lead to more precise balancing of risks. They have different goals than I have.
downsides to clipping in:
1) Chance of crossloading the biner in a fall. can happen belaying as well, but things are more stable/predictable there.
2) The carabiner can rub against the rock and turn the gate. Unlocking it.
3) It is bulky at the tie in, especially when clipping.
4) the fall gets loaded on a very small bit of metal making a very tight turn. It does at the belay end as well, but that load happens a lot of rope stretch away.
I am curious as to which gyms teach clipping in exclusively and definatly who is teaching clipping in for the lead. I am surprised that AZ gyms do ... they are close to alot of outdoor climbing.
Brian
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z_rock90
Nov 22, 2005, 1:27 AM
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The main reason that gym's have auto lockers on a bight and don't have people tie in directly. is people who are coming in for the fist time get fed up with trying to tie the correct knot and go up the wall with a huge massive knot of square knots. "I've seen it happen"
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antiqued
Nov 22, 2005, 1:46 AM
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There's some data floating around giving 500 lbs as a strength for cross-loading the gate ( mentioned in a rappelling death, recently re-discussed here). However, a look at the Petzl web site shows that all of their lockers are rated for 7kN or better. Certainly a poorly dressed figure 8 knot is much stronger than a cross-loaded carabiner gate of either strength.
However, a top rope setup should infrequently cause forces as high as 500lb (but it is certainly possible if you are even a little careless!) 7kN requires about a 0.5 Fall Factor, static belay plus a HEAVY climber. You could make that happen, but it would take some effort. (Gri-Gri, belayer tied down because outweighed by Goliath, failure to take in slack, Goliath dynoes for hold.....
However, cross-loading is not a really rare event, and will wear ropes on the gate, etc. The rate of rope wear is probably no less than that over the anchor (1/100 or less of falls crossloaded?) so a gym might judge it a faster, idiot resistant safe method of joining rope and climber, turning over crowded ropes more quickly.
An individual climber should reach the opposite conclusion. Fluency in tying in is part of the skill set, and leading requires tying in.
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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 1:46 AM
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Twasn't a gym where I learned to climb. 15 years ago or so I got some of the local area pioneers to teach me how to climb. They had been climbing in the area since the 60's and I know that being in the location that they were in changes to standards didn't come up very often. It seems such a trite subject to me considering the risk factors in other aspects of climbing that people are not concerned about, such as not using lockers on runners and the amount of absolutley pitiful knots I see that nobody seems to notice but me. Or some of the other things I see people doing that just doesn't seem very smart, such as wearing their harnesses around when they don't need to, causing unneccasary wear to it. I know to some these things seem obsurd, but some of them are more dangerous than this, and noone seems to make such a big deal about them. I was climbing with a kid the other day and noticed his tye in knot was so mangled that if he did take a lead fall I would bet on the knot breaking before my carabiner would, and he had done quite a bit of climbing up in boulder, so it wasn't like he was new to the sport and didn't know how to tye in, nobody had ever shown him that his knot needed to be tight and neat.
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omegaprime
Nov 22, 2005, 1:53 AM
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As mentioned by others, among the dangers of clipping in is cross loading and screw gate turning open, both could lead to a failure in our protection system. I won't go into the finer details of this problem, I'm no expert. Suffice to say that everyone would agree that this is a POSSIBILITY.
Having said that, to me a part of climbing is the game of risk. I climb and push myself to a certain point until I can't bear the risk. My whole protection system is set up to a level that I am comfortable with, and I can climb at a level where I can handle the risks involved. Having something in your system that could possibly lead to a failure is something that I am not comfortable with.
I've seen a number of people who clipped in instead of tying in, indoors and outdoors. I haven't seen anyone get injured because of it, or at the minimum experience some problems with their climbing experience. This is not definitive as I haven't been climbing that long. But I did notice that everyone who clipped in are normally a bit "loose" in their safety measures, and like to take shortcuts (e.g. climber-belayer communication, checks, etc). That's just my observation, anyway.
To sum it up, I'd rather tie in as I can't accept the risk of having my protection system fail due to clipping in. You shouldn't be climbing if you can't tie a knot correctly, and your belayer doesn't check your knot before you climb.
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statusfreejoy
Nov 22, 2005, 1:53 AM
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Seems like clipping in on a bight would be especially cumbersome for clipping pro while leading free climbs. It's cumbersome to grab below the knot sometimes, even with a boline or whatever, and clipping in would just extend the knot further.
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cracklover
Nov 22, 2005, 1:54 AM
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In reply to: but I have noticed that most climbing walls use a knot on a bite and big locker for topropes.
For topropes is the key phrase here. For topropes, the load should not get high enough to break a crossloaded biner, if the belayer is attentive.
No way in hell should anyone ever lead on a locking biner!
As for TRing on a locking biner - I personally feel that it's a bad idea, simply because it's easier not to notice an unlocked biner than it is to notice that the knot's not tied properly. Of course, this is already an issue on the belayer side. So for TRing, it's a matter of personal preference (IMHO), but for leading, I can't think of a single good reason to clip in with a single, locking, aluminum 'biner.
GO
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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 2:12 AM
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I have been surfing the internet and can't find one accident from a crossloaded tye in biner, but I have seen 3 now from people not tying knots correctly. I am curious if anyone has studied the physics behind the loading situations on a larger carabiner used for tying in? I mean it seems extremly unprobable that it would even crossload considering teh shape of the carabiner and the various other qualities of the situations.
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cracklover
Nov 22, 2005, 2:19 AM
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In reply to: Twasn't a gym where I learned to climb. 15 years ago or so I got some of the local area pioneers to teach me how to climb. They had been climbing in the area since the 60's and I know that being in the location that they were in changes to standards didn't come up very often. It seems such a trite subject to me considering the risk factors in other aspects of climbing that people are not concerned about, such as not using lockers on runners and the amount of absolutley pitiful knots I see that nobody seems to notice but me. Or some of the other things I see people doing that just doesn't seem very smart, such as wearing their harnesses around when they don't need to, causing unneccasary wear to it. I know to some these things seem obsurd, but some of them are more dangerous than this, and noone seems to make such a big deal about them. I was climbing with a kid the other day and noticed his tye in knot was so mangled that if he did take a lead fall I would bet on the knot breaking before my carabiner would, and he had done quite a bit of climbing up in boulder, so it wasn't like he was new to the sport and didn't know how to tye in, nobody had ever shown him that his knot needed to be tight and neat.
Okay, you had me hooked earlier, kudos for that, but I'm spitting out this bait, it just tastes way too artificial.
Best of luck!
GO
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veganboyjosh
Nov 22, 2005, 2:21 AM
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what would be the benefit of doing it in a top rope situation?
i could see the merits of someone clipping in mid rope.
clipping as opposed to tying in at a multi pitch belay? how would this be more convenient? you mean in the context of block leading, or the like?
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jt512
Nov 22, 2005, 2:23 AM
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Clipping your rope to your harness by a single locking biner is idiotic, even for toproping. If you haven't experienced the mysterious phenomenon of the self-unlocking carabiner, you haven't been around long.
Jay
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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 2:25 AM
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Crackclimber, How very antagonistic of you! Sounds like you are very educated in your 7 years of climbing. I do realize what I am doing is out of standard, and that is why I started the topic. I am not looking for a fight, but it seems that you might be one of those who likes to try and belittle other people instead of help them understand things. One of the reasons I started this topic is because I have been leading on a clipped tie in since the early 90's and have never had any sort of problem with it, so I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on it and to see if there have ever been any accidents resulting from it. What I wasn't looking for was smite little comments that are meant to make me feel uncomfartable. I do appreciate your information preceeding the last comment though, so thank you.
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gavinshmavin
Nov 22, 2005, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: but I have noticed that most climbing walls use a knot on a bite and big locker for topropes. is the key phrase here. For topropes, the load should not get high enough to break a crossloaded biner, if the belayer is attentive.
There are also steel locking 'biners specifically designed to withstand crossloading to forces up to 50kn. Many gyms use these, and many of these 'biners also have a steel pin holding the bight in place to prevent cross-loading in the first place. These 'biners typically also have a compound locking sleeve that can't simply "untwist" as some have implied in this thread.
This seems to be a topic that gets revisited periodically (I recall it also got some play a couple years ago after a USCCA comp accident involving a single aluminum screwgate). While I don't think there really _is_ an industry standard in gyms (although tying in is probably more common than clipping in), I do think that it is perfectly safe to toprope in a gym while clipped in with a single locking 'biner, provided it is the right kind of locking 'biner (of the type I describe above).
Peace, and climb safe. When in doubt tie in. If a gym has fixed knots and cheesy biners, just bring your own backup biner and clip in with that too.
Gavin
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jt512
Nov 22, 2005, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: Crackclimber, How very antagonistic of you! Sounds like you are very educated in your 7 years of climbing. I do realize what I am doing is out of standard, and that is why I started the topic. I am not looking for a fight, but it seems that you might be one of those who likes to try and belittle other people instead of help them understand things. One of the reasons I started this topic is because I have been leading on a clipped tie in since the early 90's and have never had any sort of problem with it, so I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on it and to see if there have ever been any accidents resulting from it.
The first time and the last time you have a problem with it are going to be the same time.
Jay
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leapinlizard
Nov 22, 2005, 2:38 AM
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Gavin, thank you for your information. Although, I don't recall ever seeing one of those carabiners. Ultimately, I realize that it is safer to tie in rather to clip in. I think I have really just been arguing the quantitative reasoning for it. When it comes down to it, I will probably keep doing what I do. And while I am sure most disagree with my choice, it has kept me alive and uninjured in many different places on many different climbs. Maybe, this season I will start tying in more, but I do have to say after so long it will be a hard habit to quit.
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bryanboonern
Nov 22, 2005, 2:52 AM
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Are you at least untieing and retieing the knot between climbs/days of climbing? If you are leaving a knot in the rope at all times (especially if it has been weighted) this could severely weaken the rope.
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jt512
Nov 22, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: Are you at least untieing and retieing the knot between climbs/days of climbing? If you are leaving a knot in the rope at all times (especially if it has been weighted) this could severely weaken the rope.
And another myth is born.
Jay
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gavinshmavin
Nov 22, 2005, 2:54 AM
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A quick google (for "captive eye steel carabiners" turns up this and others).
http://patrollersupply.com/...eview.asp?itemID=188
You can see that this seems (at least to me) to avoid the cross-loading problem (and, if this 'biner is like the ones I've seen in gyms, it's rated to 40 or 50kn crossloaded anyway).
Peace,
Gavin
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