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nate_fordham
Oct 8, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Ive been slack lining for about a 3 months and i love it. i am using the carabeeners to tighten it up. it works for short distances like 15 to 25 feet but it wont tighten longer lines. so I'm looking into the pulley system. but i don't know how to set it up. i want to know how to set it up be fore i buy the pulleys. so i can buy the rite kind of pulleys. and if anyone has some pulleys that they don't use and are interested in selling them i would love to take a look at them. thanks
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veganboyjosh
Oct 8, 2005, 5:34 PM
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imho, pulleys are overrated.
learn how the 3:1 two biner system works. (check the threads below). once you've got the concept of the 3:1 down pat, take the end of the line--the one you're pulling on, and run it thru another 3:1 system. if that's not tight, repeat again with another 3:1 after that. that's(without friction) 27:1. you should be able to tighten that pretty tight, even with longer lines.
i have this set up in my backyard right now, the line's 40 feet from anchor to anchor. it's 3 feet off the ground unweighted, and when i step on it, it sags between two and three feet.
and that's tightening it by myself. with a little adjustment in the placing of the biners, and with a friend to help yard on the end, i'm sure i could get it even tighter.
check also the similar threads listed at the bottom of the page.
edit:
just retightened it, and it's now about 2 feet off the ground, when i'm bottoming it out in the middle of the line, using the above system.
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polarwid
Oct 8, 2005, 8:12 PM
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polarwid moved this thread from Suggestions, Questions & Feedback. to Slacklining.
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mr_lemons
Oct 8, 2005, 8:43 PM
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it's time to convert to the dark side... most people that hate pulleys haven't or don't know how to use them. i use the slackline bros. system, but if you use the self camming biner system with cheap pulleys ontop that works good too. also three feet of sag on a three foot high line is no good at all, alone i get a 50 foot line to sag about a foot(i like em tight)
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lewisiarediviva
Oct 8, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Try a Maasdam Power Pull.
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jeremy11
Oct 8, 2005, 10:06 PM
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I have tightened a 75 foot line (anchors at 7 feet) on a 4:1 minus friction biner setup by myself. (also tried a 90 footer like this but it was so loose I only made it 15 feet) the trick is use a hip belay to hold the webbing then get behind the anchor tree and push off with one foot as hard as you can, and throw your weight into it aggressively. I have played with the multiplier systems but without actual pulleys it seems they create more friction than they are worth. so you really shouldn't need pulleys until you are at least going over 50 feet, or really really tight (I can also tighten a good jump line this way). not that I am anti pulley, I just cannot justify the cost now.
Jeremy
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mr_lemons
Oct 8, 2005, 10:12 PM
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pulleys are like 8 bucks each... i love when people can't justify it... i just quit eating out and driving and paying money basicly... i can justify climbing and slacking gear :D
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crshbrn84
Oct 8, 2005, 11:38 PM
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i use a 6:1 system with biners, where the line wraps over itself, i use a method similar to what jeremy above metioned, i just clove hitch a biner to it and make a loop through the biner with the webbing. i put myself in that loop and bounce and push off of what i can to make the system tight. I just set up a 70 ft line the other day with this system and didnt have any problems. Line was 4 ft high, and sagged about 2 feet and i weight 200llbs.
gear,
100ft reinforced slackline,
2 twenty ft lengths of webbing i turned into loops to put around the trees
7 bd ovals,
thats it, the system works great and i can set it up in about 10 minutes
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 4, 2006, 7:11 PM
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I agree with coldclimb, the ratchet is my worst and never used option, and i have them all.
I own SBI pulleysand a ropeman, a slackjack with slackdog multiplier, a ratchet, a CMI BIG pulley highline setup, and of course biners for the simple minded.
I definitely do not like walking ratchet lines, especially, if the ratchet stays in the line (i.e. no soft pointing). It has a much larger impact on stiffening the natural side to side motion of the line, than softpointing, or even pulleys. I have been told of the teeth busting off of one by a big air on a lowline, by a mountaineering guide friend. The pulleys held up to coldclimb's huge airs in Moab, and several others, Seth 195 lbs landing airs. I have bent a ratchet bouncing a 60 footer in the park, I'm 260 lbs. Never hurt my pulleys though, the line "loads" the ratchet alot, and it bent pretty badly.
The slackjack is an interesting option, especially for a one man set up of 30-50 footers. I have one of these too, and it is light (for if you have to leave it in the line for walking), but the friction of the webbing running over itself makes it very inefficient in practical use and you don't get much of the benefit of its 6 to 1 ratio. I have rigged 70 footers, solo, with this and the slackdog to further multiply the mechanical advantage. But for that, i prefer to use pulleys.
If you pay ANY attention at all to the slackline pioneers and masters that have come before us, the way to rig is to use pulleys, with as much multiplication as necessary, to rig big lines, and highlines. Darrin Carter's 100 + foot lowlines (never walked less than a 90 footer, thought it was too easy!?!?).
I use SBI pulleys for lowlines, with a ropeman, for multiplication. I have rigged 100+ foot threaded (which take more power to tighten) lowlines with this setup. It is by far the easiest to change tension for bigger and smaller walkers, I am 260 lbs so my lines are usually too tight and too high for most, so we lax the tension perfectly in seconds with the pulleys. If i am leaving a big low line up, i use the pulleys, and then soft point the line and take my pulleys home with me. I have found the pulley setup to be the easiest to overtension( required for softpoint), and then loosen to remove the sytem from the line.
Maybe a ratchet or jack can be used for lowlines, but the pulleys are the most flexible( any line from 20 ft to 120 ft and threaded)and feel a good bit more natural if you have to leave the tightening system in( the pulleys can twist without twisting the line, whereas a jack ot ratchet rigidly holds flat to the line making the line in turn feel rigid).
If you care about getting your lowlines to be "highline tight" get the SBI pulleys(the brake setup alone is worth it), a threaded line, and a ropeman and get to it.
Most of my freestylers like super tight trick lines, or walk lowlines only to practice for the highlines, either way we use the pulleys with a multiplier to get em "highline" tight. And as for the WALKING FEEL of the line, softpointing is well worth the effort.
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slacklinejoe
Jan 4, 2006, 9:51 PM
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v_nuthin_ace,
I think a lot of what you are experiencing that you don't like about ratchets has a lot to do with how it is rigged. Some of it is the same for pulleys or other systems too. I'm going to spew a lot of stuff you probably already know a whole lot about just to put information out there for others to find through the search though.
By no means am I trying to convert anyone, but here's a couple tips most folks don't know to do. I do appologize for the long post though, most people who frequent this board realize I'm long winded.
Dealing with feedback/line weight:
Most folks who walk big lines worry a lot about the weight of the tensioning system that remains on the line. There are some good solutions for that, but one thing for pure simplicity is to ensure any weight on the line is as close to the anchors as humanly possible. While this can't always be done where equalization is reqired due to angles, moving the weight back as far as you can will reduce the amount of counterbalance you feel. By using steps to move the weight of the pulleys, ratchets or biners as close to the anchors as possible, you can nearly eliminate any feel at all on the line so softpointing becomes less imporant. Thats why I used a different sling design on my rigs to put the weight extremely close so I feel more counter balance using biners than I do with a ratchet, of course we also built a nifty and super easy system for softpointing out the ratchet for those who are uber sensitive to line weight/counter balance.
The worst line I ever tried walking had a pulley setup 10 foot from the anchors (friend over estimated by a long shot where to fix them). Even though it was those CMI ultra light pulleys it felt like there was 50 lbs or more counter balancing me.
Pivot Points
Another odd issue most people never notice is pivot points. What I mean is that if the vertical pivot point is in the mid point of the tree and the vertical pivot point is at best at the front of the tree, you'll notice a different feel to the line, especially when surfing. Bounce up and down and watch where the line stops moving, then move side to side and you'll notice the difference. The bigger the difference between the pivot points the more noticable the effect will be, depending on how your slings are arranged, this will feel just like someone is sitting on the end of the line or otherwise counter balancing one axis of your movement. By changing the way your sling your anchors, you can effect the pivot points. I've moved mine to both be at the front edge of the tree and I only get a couple inches difference due to webbing stretch at the worst. It's an interesting difference.
Build Quality
You mentioned seeing a ratchet break teeth as though this implied some dire weakness of ratchets specifically. Well, it depends on the gear, not the type - I have seen some people using stupidly weak rigs using ratchets, but then I've also seen people break biners and cheaply made pulleys. I think the real issue is that some ratchets are made in capacities far lower than what is needed and people see them as dirt cheap options. Without much information about what loads are in the system people blindly think it's safe to use woefully under rated gear.
The reality of the situation is choosing appropriately rated gear for the need. My suggestion is to pay close attention to gear ratings and if not present, seriously question whether it would be smart to place it in a situation where it could see 1,500 lbs or greater (medium to small lines) or far higher loads for large lines. I've never broke any of mine, but the ones I use are 10,000 lb test. Tensile testing is only part of the equation, even if it isn't going to fail on you doesn't mean it'll operate smoothly for years to come - that applies to all pulleys too. Biners usually fail when gates are left partially open or other user error from what I can tell, they test strong enough, but it seems easy to tri-load them or otherwise unknowingly muck up the setup unless you pay attention - usually not an issue, but John Q. Public may not always be very attentive.
I have seen a lot of people use cheap bunk successfully, it may hold, it may not. Personally even for 30 foot low line use I won't recommend anything less than 2,000 lb test, but whatever. People will always be cheap, and I suppose that is fine as long as they don't get themselves hurt. The second issue there is durability, i.e. how long the system will actually function correctly.
Durability testing is somtimes trail and error, but that isn't appealing on highlines or to the budget. During durability testing I was disturbingly suprised at which brands failed to hold up gracefully during testing. While they weren't failing in a way which would drop someone, I ran into wear and friction related issues. For ratchets I had to switch brands more than 5 times before I was happy - some of the US expensive makers were terrible quality (I had to hang my head with disgust on some of them). I've ran into the same issues with pulleys, some seem to gunk up the bearings/sheaves far faster although fortunately there good brands did seem to behave better. For pulleys wear seemed less the issue than keeping them clean and maintained (if appropriate).
Mechanical Advantage and System Throw
Picking your tensioning system depends a lot on how long of a line you are setting as well as desired tension. Mechanical advantage can be involved to figure out the specifics in a system, but basically the higher advantage the less effort you'll have to put out. If you have friends to help or are a veritable bull moose you can get away with far less MA than others will need. More MA usually implies more gear, more rigging, more expense and more time spent setting up, but not always thanks to commercial systems available on the market.
For a simple short lowline, you probably don't need much advantage so things like primitives using biners work just fine. For medium sized lines you might need a bit more pullinng power than a Z rig will accomodate so more advanced setups like piggy backing or more pulleys (biners) may be used to create a higher ideal MA. The problem with biners is friction, there is a lot of friction created at each turn, piggy backs attain the same advantage with less turns so they are more efficent, but they reduce system throw. The same theory pretty much applies to pulleys, they have far less friction so you can usually get away with far less of a MA since they loose less MA to friction.
System throw is not always an issue, but remember, you want to keep any system weight as close as possible to anchor to reduce counter balancing effects if you can. To do this piggy backed systems often need the throw "reset" to get full tension while keeping the gear close to the anchors. Sometimes that requires a bit of cumbersome work if your just wanting a line up, of course sometimes it's fun to play with rigging too.
One thing I will point out that is a major limitation of ratchets is limited throw - normally this is a fixed length of take up. With a 2" 10,000 lb unit, you will set a 40 foot line with almost no effort on your part due to it's high MA, but you'll fill up the intake spool on it thus limiting it's range. What I found is that with some quick use of cam buckles or other soft point rigging you can reset the system throw and keep going thus increasing your system range.
It took me a long time to get the reset system I use smoothed out, but once in place it resets the throw in just a couple seconds letting me retain the high MA of the ratchet without a limited system throw. While I won't say I can walk them with ease, I easily can rig 150+ foot low lines using this system, solo. It does take many resets to get a line of that length tight, but it doesn't require much effort, cost that much and it is rated for high tensile use if I plan on leaving it in the system when slacking. Either way, I've been quite happy with the results, even compared to the other alternatives. Your mileage may vary of course - it's all on someones needs.
I will disagree on one point, I never found threaded lines harder to tension, actually I found them to attain less stretch before holding desired tension - perhaps it's just peculiarity of the specific webbing we were using varying.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 4, 2006, 11:41 PM
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I've never seen a 100 plus footer done with a ratchet but i have seen a 120 ft and a 20 ft done with pulleys, probably a reason for that, that is why i say pulleys are easily the most flexible, accomodationg setup for a range of lines. Just speaking from experience here, but if i had to have just one tightening system for all lines, it would be SBI pulleys with the brake, and a ropeman. As for threaded, it takes more cranking power to tension, but it will hold you up the same hieght as a single line, with less tension. But to achieve the same line tension, ie stretch on the fibers in the 1 inch line, takes more effort on a threaded. Especially with tech tape threaded with 11/16, which is the highline combo i came up with that is the most bomber threaded you can put together, currently.
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slacklinejoe
Jan 5, 2006, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: As for threaded, it takes more cranking power to tension, but it will hold you up the same hieght as a single line, with less tension. But to achieve the same line tension, ie stretc on the fibers in the 1 inch line, takes more effort on a threaded.
I think your directly associating line tension with the amount (length) of line you are stretching. They won't be the same as the elasticity varies. Pretensioning length doesn't really matter, just tension when loaded.
Example:
Tie a piece of shock cord to a 5 lb weight and lift it off the floor;
you may have to pull 4 feet of slack out of it before you get > 5 lbs of tension to lift the weight.
Tie a peice of dynamic climbing rope to a 5 lb weight and lift it off the floor;
you'll only have a mm or so of slack to take out before it reaches > 5 lbs of tension and lifts the weight.
Regardless of if it was a bungy cord or chain, if you sag 4 feet in the middle of a 100 foot line the forces on the anchor and system tension will be the exact same (assuming you are standing still). Analysis of a Slackline
Worry about where you are standing height wise when the line is up, to achieve the same tension on a threaded line you do not need to have the pulley fixed to the main line as far from the anchor as it will stretch less before reaching the needed tension.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 5:20 PM
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sounds like for your argument you could fully interchange single 11/16 line. or any 1 inch line threaded with 11/16, as if the 1 inch around the 11/16 in a threaded line doesn't factor in at all. You did the same thing with the equations, they were too simple to be realistic. Those of us that have dealt with complex engineering equations, know there were way too many of the variables and factors left out of your doings, for it to be of much help. We aren't all idiots joe, and most of us have seen the same info online that you are basing your oversimplified arguments on.
Let me ask you a simple question. Does it take more effort to tension 2 1inch single slacklines that are taped together, or just 1 single line?
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slacklinejoe
Jan 5, 2006, 5:30 PM
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Defining "effort" is part of the problem. Basically the doubled / threaded lines will stretch less so you technically pull less slack out of the system before it's at the desired tension. The force you exert in pulling the line tight will be the same assuming you aren't using the main line as part of your tensioning system (biner systems).
Basically I've found threaded lines easier as I'll have to accomodate less system throw, in the end however it'll take the same X lbs of peak pull out of you assuming the same tensioning system.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 6:00 PM
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I think the problem is, when we rig a line things seem contrary to what you are saying. When i string a single line with pulleys, it is easier for me to tighten, by FAR, than when i have two tensioned 1 inch lines to tension, 1 on top of the other, with the same pulley system. And by tensioned the same i mean that either of the two "stacked lines" are as tight as the single line, with the other stacked line being tensioned also.. It takes more advantage, or just more effort with the same advantage. Your ideas don't make this seem possible, but it is how things are. With this being the case, real world, that 2 lines atop each other (both tensioned) is harder to pull to the same tension than a single, then this would apply to a threaded line as well, which is 2 lines tensioned, just 1 is 11/16 and the other is 1 inch.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 6:06 PM
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By the way the reason for the stacked 1 inch lines is that when you rig super long low lines, the anchors can quickly get high enough to scare most slackers, so if we get two tensioned lines stacked and taped, the same tension each, as a single line would be, then it keeps us off the ground still, but with lower anchors and therefore a lower line.
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slacklinejoe
Jan 5, 2006, 6:06 PM
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Threaded lines will be harder to pull per inch, they stretch less so of course it's going to resist differently. What I was trying to point out is that it'll take less slack removed from the system to equal the same line tension. If your shooting to yield xyz drop, it'll still work out to the same peak resistance, just less slack removed to get the job done.
So it just feels smoother during pulling but by the time you got them both equally set, you've still ended up pulling just as hard on the single to get it tight enough to have identical sag in the system.
What I'm trying to get at, is to acheive the same results, i.e. identical sag between the two systems, you'll do the same pulling. Just less system throw with threaded lines. Apples to Apples.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 6:09 PM
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The overall target, is for us to still have 150 foot low lines, but with 7 ft anchors intead of needing 11 foot anchors, so the more we tension the better off we are, as we don't whipper on low lines, and if it broke from overtension it is a short fall. But for us it is the tighter the better, and the lower, with still having ground clearance the better
Obviously identical sag is not what we want to achieve, joe, because if it is identical then we haven't accomplished anything, we have just changed it.
We want less sag than a single, so the anchors can be lower. Achieving identical sag only gets us right back to where we just were???????? and that is not very practical, though quite circular.
Your physics of a slackline soapbox GOT US A BIT OFF the tightening system discussion we started from, in which my conclusion was the pulleys are a much better (via the continious, infinitely incremental adjustments of tension, compared to the staccato step tensioning of a ratchet, and it is better for the RANGE of lines. It will do a 20 or a 150 footer. That was my conclusion, and whether your DETOUR was conscious or not, that is right where i still stand. No Bullying Joe, the other guy might be HUGE. Wink, Wink.:)
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slacklinejoe
Jan 5, 2006, 7:42 PM
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What confuses me about your concept is that you are wanting less sag than you have with the single line, but that can be done by just tightening the single line more. Assuming you aren't worrying about breaking it, you can get identical sag with 1 line as you can with 2 by just tightening it more - if you do that both systems end up with identical system tension.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 8:23 PM
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ever rigged a lowline over 100 ft, joe. you need every advantage to keep the anchors reasonably low and still stay off the ground in the middle, that is not hard to understand. go try to get a 100 ft single line up with anchors below 8 ft that can keep up to 250 lbs off the groud in the middle, pack a lunch too, you'll be there a while. With all your theoretics about slacking, you seem to lack practical rigging experience, or at least you come off that way. Since most highlines are multiple lines taped, or at least static taped underneath webbing, you have to get used to all the new weight and feel of the line, it is very different than a single low line. you seem stuck in the single line low line short line rut, what gives. There are alot of folks rigging alot of different lines. If you ever get into highlining, joe, you'll see the big benefit of stacked and super tight, even long lowlines require both.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 8:26 PM
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by the way,
above you just admitted that to achieve what i've got the stacked lines doing, requires more tensioning capability on the single line. that was my whole original point. you are very circular, joe, you just made my point for me, but it took you quite a while of struggling
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slacklinejoe
Jan 5, 2006, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: by the way, above you just admitted that to achieve what i've got the stacked lines doing, requires more tensioning capability on the single line.
But it doesn't require any more or less force to set - that doesn't change.
In a single line it just means taking in more slack (system throw) to do the job - i.e. my initial arugement.
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v_nuthin_ace
Jan 5, 2006, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: What confuses me about your concept is that you are wanting less sag than you have with the single line, but that can be done by just tightening the single line more. Assuming you aren't worrying about breaking it, you can get identical sag with 1 line as you can with 2 by just tightening it more - if you do that both systems end up with identical system tension.
Joe, figure it out man, if you can tighten the single more to get equal tensions, then i can tighten the stacked lines more and get even less sag, and as i said above, lots of slackers out there prefer as little sag as possible, for many and various reasons, including long low lines, highline feel for stacked lines, and even low short trick lines. Quit playing dumb, and posturing, that is an easy concept to get. Yeah you found a formula that tells you you can equal out tensions between different lines by tensioning then differently to make up for material differences in the lines, that is in no way helpful to actual slacklining, some thing require as little sag as you can achieve, for other normal stuff use your single line at whatever tension you like, and it doesn't matter a bit.
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