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carrieruth
Jan 27, 2006, 7:23 PM
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lambone
Jan 28, 2006, 8:26 PM
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I think it would be impossible to log the actual number of falls taken on a top-rope in the gym.
An equipment maintenence log is a critical part of every gym, and suggested by the Climbing Wall Association standards. You should be keeping track of the age, and condition of your ropes. Number each rope anchor so they can be uniquely identified. Do regular checks on the ropes to make sure they are in good condition, and change them out when necesary.
By keeping a log and documenting age and condition, and maintenence done on any of the gym equipment, you make it harder for a person to sue you for negligence, or more importantly, prevent someone from getting hurt (god forbid) due to an actual failure of your equipment.
Gym managment 101.
Lead climbing ropes should be scrutinized even more so and changed out more often, but I still think it would be difficult to record every fall.
cheers
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carrieruth
Jan 29, 2006, 1:57 AM
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Thanks so much for your reply. We actually log our falls now, but it is time consuming to mark it down after each belay. We also are not sure exactly what profit we are gaining from the data... so I'm trying to find support for either keeping track or not keeping track, so we can make a decision as to our policy of our rope logs. Your points are excellent and helpful!
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lambone
Jan 29, 2006, 6:38 AM
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carrieruth,
my philosophy is: don't collect data if you don't plan to do anything with it. It is time/energy better spent on other things.
I've never known any gym to log every fall, but would be interested to hear if some did.
I think it is very important however, to recognize the signs of a deteriorating rope. It is also especially important regading lead ropes since the age and condition will greatly affect the fall, or catch. Plus, leading is inherently more dangerous, so you would want someone to get hurt using a bad rope (for example: lacking elasticity or static), or a customer to be able to say they were injured due to a bad rope. This is the primary reason our gym does not supply lead climbing ropes.
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rockguide
Jan 29, 2006, 7:00 AM
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Yes - a rope log is a good idea, but you are tracking the wrong data. It does not really matter how many falls a rope takes in the gym. It matters how worn out it is. Wear on the wall surfaces, pinch from the top anchors or long squeegee from lowering with grigris are real, but not something that shows on paper.
Yes, track how long the rope has been on the wall. Inspect the rope once a week and document that you check it. Move lead ropes to the top top area and top ropes to the auxillary rope bin and then the trash.
You can learn more about a rope by running it through your hand than by going through pages of data about who fell how far and when. If you cannot learn by feel you are in the wrong business.
Just have notes that show that regular inspections of the ropes (and top anchors, and directional draws, and floor anchors, and rental gear) occur and that you retire stuff that is not "good for the game".
B
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anykineclimb
Jan 29, 2006, 7:31 AM
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Better information tracked would be:
date purchased/ start of use
lot number
was it cut from a spool?
STARTING length
date cut (if needed)
Date swithching ends (you ARE switching ends, right?)
damage found
date retired
Also, its a good idea to rotate your ropes around the gym. generally some areas are for harder routes and get more falls, whereas other areas would be high traffic due to easier routes. different stressors.
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wearyourtruth
Jan 29, 2006, 9:00 PM
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we have 13 TR bars at our gym, and our records are once every two weeks, rotating the ropes (belay end and climber end) and noting condition. we have 2 lead ropes and those who lead climb record the number of climbs and falls on the rope they used.
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keylay
Jan 30, 2006, 5:28 AM
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I read the first few posts and though about a college class. I go to Texas State and am studying Recreation Administration. One of my profs. is an avid outdoors women. She has been diagnosed with MS in the past few years. Anyways, she is working on a one of a kind software for ropes course. It's a on-line program, I believe, that will have rope logging capabilities to be put on-line and stored electronically. It will hold information like rope length, size, purchase date, times used, use, hard falls, retired date. It will be good for ropes courses regarding insurance purposes and will reduce rates of facilities by ten fold. I don't see why this would be bad for a rock gym...it could possibly be useful in the future.
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styndall
Jan 30, 2006, 6:07 AM
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In reply to: I read the first few posts and though about a college class. I go to Texas State and am studying Recreation Administration. One of my profs. is an avid outdoors women. She has been diagnosed with MS in the past few years. Anyways, she is working on a one of a kind software for ropes course. It's a on-line program, I believe, that will have rope logging capabilities to be put on-line and stored electronically. It will hold information like rope length, size, purchase date, times used, use, hard falls, retired date. It will be good for ropes courses regarding insurance purposes and will reduce rates of facilities by ten fold. I don't see why this would be bad for a rock gym...it could possibly be useful in the future.
I don't mean to be down on your prof, but what you're describing sounds suspiciously like an everyday spreadsheet.
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misanthropic_nihilist
Jan 30, 2006, 6:51 AM
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I think that fall forces and effects on rope are so EXTREMELY variable that recording every (or any) fall is pretty useless. Not to mention fall severity is also extremely subjective. Your time is probably much better spent inspecting the rope once a week instead. Even if you did log every fall, when would you retire it? Ask 100 experts when to retire a gym rope and you'll get 101 different answers.
Besides, I don't think there are any documented cases of ropes failing due to excessive loading or prolonged use. As long as you don't store your ropes in a cat kennel or a blender, they should be fine.
That being said, the NFPA does require rescue companies to keep rope logs. But there are a lot of differences between rescue work and lead climbing. Either way, those logs only supplement the NFPA's stringent guidelines on inspecting ropes.
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djlachelt
Jan 30, 2006, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: It will be good for ropes courses regarding insurance purposes and will reduce rates of facilities by ten fold. I don't see why this would be bad for a rock gym...it could possibly be useful in the future.
Reduce insurrance rates by ten fold? Really? I'm skeptical that any insurance company has committed to reducing the rates for facilities that use this procedure. I might believe a 10% reduction, but a ten fold reduction... inconceivable! Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure what a "ten fold" reduction means. Please clarify your statement. Thanks.
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lambone
Jan 30, 2006, 5:41 PM
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That's funny. Our insurance company didn't ask a single question about the ropes in our application. They base our rates on how much money we make.
I should ask them if a spreadsheet would get us a "ten fold" discount! Great idea!
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edge
Jan 30, 2006, 5:56 PM
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I am sorry, but I have to think this is an instance of an insurer, who is new to the climbing game, trying to cover their own asses with total disregard for the very sport they are insuring.
I have seen and heard of countless big walls being done with core shots covered in duct tape. No modern climbing rope is going to fail in a gym application unless the mantle is compromised or the anchor points/lead draws/finishing bar is not maintained and has developed a knife edge, and that doesn't just happen overnight.
Why not check those a couple of times a month in about 1/2 hour, as opposed to recording every friggen fall on a rope? I have never heard of another gym in the entire country who has such a policy.
Try "Googling" Stratus Insurance and Worldwide Outfitting; it is my understanding that they are the largest gym insurer in the country, and know their business.
Cheers,
Loran
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lambone
Jan 30, 2006, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: I am sorry, but I have to think this is an instance of an insurer, who is new to the climbing game, trying to cover their own asses with total disregard for the very sport they are insuring. Cheers, Loran
Hi Loran, is that comment directed to my last post?
If so, FYI- we are insured by Stratus. Their applications asks what the equipment maintenence policy is at the gym. That is all. That's all I was trying to say, they don't seem to be concerned if we track every fall, or how often the ropes are changed for that matter.
Bottom line is that if you say, "no we don't check our ropes or do anything"...then they probably wouldn't insure you. But you arn't going to get a reduced rate by logging every fall or having a fancy database.
The Climbing Wall Association standards (which Stratus goes by) suggest that ropes are checked and maintained, but as far as I know they never mention counting every fall on top-ropes. In a busy gym that could be hundreds of falls every night. And like the guy above mentioned, that data would be useless because there are so many variables that affect the impact forces and wear on the ropes. Like how much the climber and belayer weigh, for example.
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edge
Jan 30, 2006, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am sorry, but I have to think this is an instance of an insurer, who is new to the climbing game, trying to cover their own asses with total disregard for the very sport they are insuring. Cheers, Loran Hi Loran, is that comment directed to my last post?
Matt,
Not at all, it was meant for the OP; sorry for the confusion.
I recall you researching ideas for your gym in depth when you were setting it up a few years ago, correct?
Like I said, Stratus seems to be on top of their game, I just don't know who the original poster has and thought I would steer them towards Stratus.
I think safety is PARAMOUNT in climbing, whether indoors or out, but at some point unneccesary regulations can put a valid business out of business.
From what it sounds like, you are doing a fine job, but the OP is getting bullied by a clueless insurance company, and I do have alot of experience with those. Try getting home owners insurance for a wood shop with a pile of flammable solvents attached to your 125 year old antique house.
Cheers,
Loran
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lambone
Jan 30, 2006, 9:32 PM
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Thanks edge,
However, I don't see anything in carrieruth's posts to indicate that an insurance company is making them track falls.
Sounds like they do but aren't sure if it's worth it. General concensus is: NO. sofar...
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edge
Jan 30, 2006, 10:28 PM
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In reply to: However, I don't see anything in carrieruth's posts to indicate that an insurance company is making them track falls.
Whoops, note to self: reading comprehension sucks after 6+ hours of spraying lacquer.
Actually I already knew that lacquer applications rivalled climber gatherings in terms of brain cell lossage, but that is another case in point.
Still, I cannot imagine anyone keeping a rope log without "the man" requesting it. I have designed and built 4 walls at elementary schools, plus parts of one commercial gym, and the whole "rope log" thing is not even close to relevant. I guess that is my main point.
If I inferred wrong, then apologies to carrieruth. If not, then I DO think something needs to be addressed with the administration. I would much rather have a person on the floor monitoring useage than bean counting falls and rope useage. I mean, every top roper who climbs weights the rope eventually, right? And the lead climbers are probably 1/20th of the top ropers.
Major rope wear in gyms seems limited to the last 5 feet from tie in, with certain "hot spots" only if you never change your routes or alter their cruxes. That would be a routesetter issue.
I think a good, commercial gym should change ropes as soon as:
a) core shot develops,
b) severe fraying,
c) six months. (using the right rope, with none of the above appearing, then I do not know of a single global failure. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I only state these criteria because I cannot envision a gym related rope failure given any cord approaching this point.
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