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tagaustatoppen
Feb 27, 2006, 5:50 AM
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How many times have we done something silly handling the rope and lived and thought wow I really screwed up? Maybe something simple that would not kill you yet that is still unsafe. We have all made little mistakes but we have caught them before they multiplied other wise we would be injured or worse dead. Even thought at times I have wanted to tell people that they need to stop there bad habits I ask if I can give advise if they want it I'll give it. I however did not chase them out of the canyon because they were doing something unsafe. They will learn just as the rest of us. Unfortunate things happen and life goes on. Just because CHH wants to fix the problem now doesn't mean that we need to badger them and bring them down. If you didn't think it was quality stuff then why did you buy it in the first place?
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tagaustatoppen
Feb 27, 2006, 5:52 AM
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How many times have we done something silly handling the rope and lived and thought wow I really screwed up? Maybe something simple that would not kill you yet that is still unsafe. We have all made little mistakes but we have caught them before they multiplied other wise we would be injured or worse dead. Even thought at times I have wanted to tell people that they need to stop there bad habits I ask if I can give advise if they want it I'll give it. I however did not chase them out of the canyon because they were doing something unsafe. They will learn just as the rest of us. Unfortunate things happen and life goes on. Just because CHH wants to fix the problem now doesn't mean that we need to badger them and bring them down. If you didn't think it was quality stuff then why did you buy it in the first place?
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the_mitt
Feb 27, 2006, 7:03 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 14, 2006, 8:48 PM)
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 7:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Aliens are fairly delicate affairs compared to Metolius cams which are just far and away the burliest cams out there. I'd also say since their inception I've alway cast a dubious eye on Camalots as well. I'm still unconvinced their original U-stem Camalots were as safe as originally billed. Interestingly enough, there is plenty of evidence to support that assertion about the camalots. Goran Kropp died due to 4 pieces failing. 3 - I believe - were older U-stem Camalots. He fell, 1st Camalot, #3 pulled (possibly too small for that 3" placement) His 2nd from the top piece was a Metolius Cam, which held and would have saved his life, except that the wired carabiner on the draw for that piece broke, thus resulting on the zipper ripping the next 2 Camalots resulting in a groundfall fatality. Later, BD changed to a softer aluminum. I think the Metolius products have always given up a little expansion range to get exceptional holding power as well. Gorans fatality sure flushes out and fulfills in reality what you are thinking. . Wow - I'm looking for the accident report right now but there seems to be A LOT of here-say and rumor in that statement. ANAM report doesn't state that any cams other than the #3 ripped (I can't remember the more detailed report and am looking to find it now) and the BD changed to softer aluminum claim is iffy as well. This is how internet rumors cause big problems - please clarify.
I don't find it heresay or rumor. As I said, I found the original Camalot double stem design and manufacture extremely suspect and still do. I have never seen pull tests on them but would still love to see a reasonable sample of them pull tested to failure. I do not know which model Camalots Goran placed, but the outcome does not necessarily surprise me. I personally still don't have faith in newer Camalots to be more than adequate.
Below was part of description of the events by his belayer:
In reply to: ... Goran started climbing, and I belayed him using a Petzl Reverso. He placed a small nut then what seemed like a #2 yellow TCU. The other gear that I could identify after we left the scene included a #3 red TCU, a #1 red Camalot, and a #3 blue Camalot. I am not certain if he placed any more gear. Just before I looked down to my feet while belaying, I saw him near the top, with a piece of protection by his foot. He had to have been about 20 meters up on the climb. We were using a 60-meter rope and earlier in the day, had plenty of extra rope when we rappelled from the anchors of the climbs that we were doing. Then I heard a commotion above me. Goran was falling. He was falling and I saw his first piece pull. His rope went slack. My instinct was to duck and I crouched low into the corner to take up the slack. I think I pulled some rope through the belay device, but I am not sure. I did throw my left arm into the lead line to press it closer to the ground as I did crouch. It wrapped my arm once, caught my left biceps and cinched it. I was not wearing a shirt. It appeared after the fact that the belay action was delivered by the one loop around my arm that resulted in a full circle rope burn with trauma and I did not feel much pull on my belay device. I heard him impact just behind me on the 2-3 meter wide shelf, and then there was silence. It all happened very quickly. I looked up and there was only one piece left on the climb, the #2 TCU. All other gear had pulled in sequence as he came down. The rope went from me to the TCU, and then down to Goran who was now laying on his back on the climber’s trail below the King Pins. ... |
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lemon_boy
Feb 27, 2006, 8:33 AM
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yeah, the statements about goran kropp's accident don't seem correct with what i remember either. first of all, it happened WAY after BD had redesigned to thicker cam lobes, so obviously it wasn't a factor in the redesign. if i remember correctly, one piece pulled (the rock inside the crack on that route isn't the best, so i can see this possibly happening), and one or two biners broke. when i climbed the route a while later there was an old (u-stem, thin lobes) #2 camalot inside the crack that was destroyed. some elderly gal that supposedly climbs there a bunch told us that he busted it in his fall. who knows? the real mystery is how on earth a talented dude such as cropp fell on that route? again, who knows.
in other news, ran into a group of kids today, one of the gals was about to head up and had a bunch of aliens on her harness. i asked them if they had found any dimpled aliens and they didn't know what i was talking about. i was showing them where the dimple would be, sure enough the first one she hands me (orange) has the dimple. i think they were a bit freaked out about this, and rightfully so.
i honestly think that the best thing for dave, climbers, etc, would be to sell it to trango (if malcolm were interested). he is in over his head at this point.
"gotta know when to hold 'em
know when to fold 'em
know when to walk away
know when to run"
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 8:49 AM
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In reply to: yeah, the statements about goran kropp's accident don't seem correct with what i remember either. first of all, it happened WAY after BD had redesigned to thicker cam lobes, so obviously it wasn't a factor in the redesign. if i remember correctly, one piece pulled (the rock inside the crack on that route isn't the best, so i can see this possibly happening), and one or two biners broke. when i climbed the route a while later there was an old (u-stem, thin lobes) #2 camalot inside the crack that was destroyed. some elderly gal that supposedly climbs there a bunch told us that he busted it in his fall. who knows? the real mystery is how on earth a talented dude such as cropp fell on that route? again, who knows.
For all his alpine accomplishments Kropp wasn't that experienced a trad climber and also wanted to go to the Valley to "become an expert crack climber". That and the fact that he came off the climb suggests he was actually at or near his limit. Again, that text is verbatim from his belayer.
In reply to: in other news, ran into a group of kids today, one of the gals was about to head up and had a bunch of aliens on her harness. i asked them if they had found any dimpled aliens and they didn't know what i was talking about. i was showing them where the dimple would be, sure enough the first one she hands me (orange) has the dimple. i think they were a bit freaked out about this, and rightfully so.
Good for you. Numerous posts on these threads have asked folks to check out other's racks for dimpled Aliens when they see folks with them for exactly this reason. This shows that's still a good idea and will be for the immediate future. Everyone should be looking out for one another when there is a recall of any of the gear we use.
In reply to: I honestly think that the best thing for dave, climbers, etc, would be to sell it to trango (if malcolm were interested). he is in over his head at this point."
I can't really argue with that one...
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swede
Feb 27, 2006, 12:36 PM
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Here you will find the official report from Goran Kropps accident.
http://www.klatterforbundet.com//pdf/VantageReport20040530.pdf
From this you can see that the second piece from top, Camalot #2, held but carabiner broke. Camalot #1 and TCU #3 ripped. TCU #2 was never loaded.
The broken Camolot #2 does not belong to this accident.
Regarding CCH. I don´t know about how much flame you give car manufacturers in the US, but a lot more severe accidents do happen every year with cars. And their designs are not 100% safe (and never will be) and they also do manufacturing mistakes sometimes. I will continue to drive my Volvo and I will continue to climb on my Aliens. I just choose good equipment manufacturers who learn from mistakes and tries to improve - and tries to drive safe and climb safe.
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 12:52 PM
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Swede,
Thanks for the commentary on the accident and the link to the report...
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tgreene
Feb 27, 2006, 2:36 PM
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I happen to recall a total failure w/ a Gri-Gri a few years ago, where the cam broke and chopped a rope, resulting in a fatality. There was an extensive investigation and the report was even published.
What I don't remember ever seeing however, was a boycott or lynching of Petzl... In fact, you actually had to hunt down the details, because it seemed that nobody really cared to be bothered by it.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...order=asc&highlight=
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flamer
Feb 27, 2006, 3:12 PM
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Still use them and I'll still buy them.
I think the new problem involving the cam that was not swaged was bourne from the previous problem with the dimpled cams.
So CCH gets themselves into hot water, not entirely due to the fault in the manufacturing process. But also because they publicly mishandled the situation. Without knowing all the information they put their foot into their mouth.
So then they begin a new testing process, and a full recall/replacement of the effected cams.
Then along comes buddy, who, after 2 years, finally decide's to give them a call about the cam he'd set in. So CCH in their hurry to "make the customer happy" and not get anymore bad press, makes a very human mistake. They grabbed a cam out of the wrong bin.
Is that a a problem? Yes. Is it an obvious mistake absolutly!
CCH has my business.
josh
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cchildre
Feb 27, 2006, 3:48 PM
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LMFAO.... Please, stop with the complaining about how you misread the question and answered incorrectly! You sound like all those foolish blue haired fossils down in Florida that 'voted' back in 2000! Get yourself down to the local community center and get yourself enrolled in that 'reading comprehension class"!
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billcoe_
Feb 27, 2006, 4:17 PM
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Thank you Swede (and Matt). I should know better than to trust from memory what I thought Erden had described over 2 years ago. Sequence was Blue Camalot pulled , Yellow Camalot held- carabiner failure) Red Camalot and #3tcu pulled. My bad, I'll leave my initial post, instead of editing it, so as to remind people not to trust everything they read on the internet.
Didn't mean to have the thread take a left turn.
bill
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 27, 2006, 4:55 PM
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Shouldn't we all start a crusade to drive the company that made the broken carabiner out of business?
Never mind....they have better PR....that's what counts :wink:
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cchildre
Feb 27, 2006, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: As a side note: to all the people on HealyJ's or Tgreens ass for trying to help CHH: please, I understand the complaining and being angry at CCH, (I had to go back myself and edit a bunch of bad words like coc**uckers and Motherf**kers in my descriptions of CCH's handling of this), but why not stay off of the good samaritans for trying to help and assist. If there are any heros out there in this pile of excessive excrement and noise, it is the good samarations helping out.
Can't rate today....so I would like to ditto this one. An excellent point that I did not consider till your post. I think someday a few of us will look back and regret some of the things said here..... I know that I already do.
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mattm
Feb 28, 2006, 8:32 AM
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In reply to: Thank you Swede (and Matt). I should know better than to trust from memory what I thought Erden had described over 2 years ago. Sequence was Blue Camalot pulled , Yellow Camalot held- carabiner failure) Red Camalot and #3tcu pulled. My bad, I'll leave my initial post, instead of editing it, so as to remind people not to trust everything they read on the internet. Didn't mean to have the thread take a left turn. bill
Hey - no worries - I had to look it up too before comments. That swede report is an interesting read - MY buddy and I discussed the accident on a long drive to Vantage one time and he was convinced a static rope was involved. It wasn't but the report suggest it wasn't overly dynamic either. This same buddy also shared a story of blowing out a .75 (or was it .5) camalot on Zodiac (cabled ripped out of the head). Interestingly, it was a "zipper" fall on the nipple pitch. Pulled some pins and other gear before he hit the cam. Buddy theorized that the rope lost elasticity as each piece help and then blew, subsequently stretching the rope a little and removing some of it's dynamic capabilities. This is also what he thought could have happen to Kropp. Interesting stuff. Bottom line at the Coulee? Sew it up!!
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swede
Feb 28, 2006, 10:29 AM
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Happy to be of some help. Please notify me when my memory isn´t correct next time.
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cchildre
Feb 28, 2006, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: Interestingly, it was a "zipper" fall on the nipple pitch. Pulled some pins and other gear before he hit the cam. Buddy theorized that the rope lost elasticity as each piece help and then blew, subsequently stretching the rope a little and removing some of it's dynamic capabilities. This is also what he thought could have happen to Kropp. Interesting stuff. Bottom line at the Coulee? Sew it up!!
From some research that I have read (can't source it sorry). It can take up to two hours before a dynamic rope can fully recover from holding a big fall. So the 'zipper' situation you describe, your buddy is dead on. Thus just another reason to consider the use of twins. Two pieces of floss to absorb the fall at different points should a piece blow. I am not sure if the impact force is higher using twins though?
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jt512
Feb 28, 2006, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: I happen to recall a total failure w/ a Gri-Gri a few years ago, where the cam broke and chopped a rope, resulting in a fatality. There was an extensive investigation and the report was even published. What I don't remember ever seeing however, was a boycott or lynching of Petzl... In fact, you actually had to hunt down the details, because it seemed that nobody really cared to be bothered by it. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...order=asc&highlight=
You don't recall it correctly. The cam did not fail. The investigation was inconclusive, but suggested that the most likely cause was that debris caught in the grigri cut the rope.
You might also recall that nobody "lynched" CCH when the first few reports of flawed or failed Aliens came out.
Jay
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tgreene
Feb 28, 2006, 5:09 PM
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Debris or no debris, the cut rope and death was directly related to the Gri-gri via binding and cutting... This would not happen with a standard belay device such as an ATC, B52 or Reverso.
The fact that it was deemed inconclusive, would be more in keeping with the initial report of a failed Alien last February, since it was never sent back to to CCH for evaluation. As inconclusive as that claim was, it is forever being brought up, is it not..? :wink:
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jt512
Feb 28, 2006, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: The fact that it was deemed inconclusive, would be more in keeping with the initial report of a failed Alien last February, since it was never sent back to to CCH for evaluation. As inconclusive as that claim was, it is forever being brought up, is it not..? :wink:
I don't follow you. There were several reported failures or flaws of Aliens that were inititally written off as trolls or isolated incidents. It wasn't until there was a clear pattern of quality control mismanagement that public opinion turned against CCH.
Jay
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swede
Mar 1, 2006, 7:53 AM
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I am myself a quality manager. I have forgotten how many times someone wanted a refund for materials “impossible” to use – and when you ask for them to return the material at our expense – there is not even a single piece left as proof of the “unusable” material. Everything has been used up or “destroyed” before they made the call to me.
So many times you know the customer is pulling your leg. BUT my thinking is that you should not state that it is a hoax, but as inconclusive evidence. In my view CCH did a mistake.
But as tgreene points out, companies has made mistakes before, they sure has called claims hoaxes. But we do still buys their products and (keeping in mind I am a foreigner), I have not seen flaming like this before. I guess you have seen the pictures from Dingus car accident – I have not seen him calling on climbers to stay clear of that car manufacturer.
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dingus
Mar 1, 2006, 12:27 PM
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In reply to: I guess you have seen the pictures from Dingus car accident – I have not seen him calling on climbers to stay clear of that car manufacturer.
Jeez, I would never in a million years have imagined my car accident would find itself in the alien thread. A most unusual connection.
But let me just say this about that... don't buy a jeep cherokee! My 2nd one is just as prone to roll overs as the one I wrecked, lol!
True. I bought another one. Replaced the alien I left on Arrowhead when I broke my ankle too.
Humans are funny.
DMT
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moondog
Mar 1, 2006, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: I happen to recall a total failure w/ a Gri-Gri a few years ago, where the cam broke and chopped a rope, resulting in a fatality. There was an extensive investigation and the report was even published.
This is incorrect. The cam did not break, but the rope was cut. Find the report and appendix here:
http://www.esssar.org/Publications/index.asp
In reply to: you actually had to hunt down the details, because it seemed that nobody really cared to be bothered by it.
While I cannot fault anyone for declining to read the entire 47-page report and 24-page appendix, it is irresponsible of you to make statements about the incident without knowledge of the details. Please take the time to read the report before posting more incorrect information.
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davidji
Mar 1, 2006, 6:42 PM
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Interesting, thanks!!
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