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angry
Feb 27, 2006, 3:20 PM
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I've seen a huge increase in climber caused vandalism.
I'm not talking about sport routes, retro-bolting or squeeze jobs.
I'm not talking about wads of tape left lying around.
I'm not talking about dogs and people trampling every bit of soil in the desert.
I'm not talking about HUGE tick-marks under roofs that will never clean off.
I'm not talking about people putting climbing stickers on signs.
I'm not even talking people who can't seem to bury their do-do.
I'm talking about straight up, no excuse, rock vandalism. The roof under Incredible Hand Crack now has chalk art handprints. You'll only be able to smudge them with a brush, they need hosed off. The rock next to Coyne Crack say "(I forgot the name) sucks" then sucks is crossed out and "kicks ass" is written under it. At the first belay of Primrose Dihedral, someone scratched YETI on the rock. At the same belay someone wrote 2 other names in chalk.
This sort of thing is without question coming from climbers. I can't even express the anger and sadness I feel at this. The sport I feel most connected with and the people who are closest in soul to me, are willfully vandalizing what it's all about. The rock.
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cchildre
Feb 27, 2006, 4:15 PM
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Ditto!
My precious, unpublished, home crag has started suffering someof the ill effects of elevated exposure and traffic. Excessive ticking has become commonplace these days. I personally discourage ticking, as in my eyes it takes away from the purity of the climb. I hate it even more when jags tic the wrong holds. For my ultimate bane, I went over to the Solstice Cave and got on the 'warm-up' route an 11a, and some tool was so thoughtful to tic the hell out of the route. Climbing the route for the first time, following the tics, the beta sucked bawls. Second try it went ignoring many of the tics, and the climbing was nice. A good rain and the bad tic are gone right? No, this trouser tent used a can of white spray paint for ticking it up! ASSE HOE!
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dingus
Feb 27, 2006, 4:19 PM
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There's a top rated bouldering pic on this site with vandalism right next to the climber. Behold the brave new world.
DMT
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billcoe_
Feb 27, 2006, 4:23 PM
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We're all going to sound like old people saying "remember when"? .
Damn, it's true though.
Pepole don't get the education like they use to when we all started I feel. We would head for the hills out of love of the outdoors and learn from mentors who felt the same. Now it seems like 1 day you're in the gym for a birthday party to have fun, and the next day that group is all at the crag.
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woodse
Feb 27, 2006, 5:10 PM
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Other than the IHC roof (the chalk will wash with spring rain) it's more likely non-climbers that are etching names and writing crap in the rock. On nearly every trip I've taken to the creek there has been groups of people that were obviously not climbers wandering and hiking around the base of climbs. Of course all we can do is speculate about who did what and why but I personally am quicker to blame the RVing, ATV driving, campsite littering tourists than actual climbers.
woodsE
BTW: In no way do I support the "chalk art" on IHC but wanted to mention it was less permanent than the other graffiti
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jackflash
Feb 27, 2006, 5:24 PM
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As people wholly dependent on a natural resource for our recreation, we usually like to think of ourselves as being greatly concerned with the environment and our effects upon it. However, not every climber takes this view, and they aren't as much of a minority as some might like them to be. We like to think that the more involved in climbing one is, the more respect they have for nature. The beginners and gym climbers are often blamed for the desecration. However, research has shown that a greater degree of involvement (e.g. feeling that climbing is central to life) in climbing was negatively correlated to preference for naturalness (Ewert & Hollenhorst 1994). Perhaps we care about getting an ascent or developing an area more than we care about the impacts done in order to climb. Another study found no significant difference between those who started indoors vs. outdoor and concern for trail erosion. In fact, those who started indoors were much more likely to be uncomfortable climbing around Native American artifacts (Borrie & Harding 2002).
Our problems run deeper than just getting the word out to the new folks and the transplanted gym rats. In directing our education, we can certainly target these groups, who are often regarded as non-climbers, but we shouldn't ignore the problem in our own midst, that some of those most deserving of the name climber are also our problems. We should all be vigilant, if not for intrinsic reasons, then for extrinsic ones; impacts on the environment do more than just ruin a good picture or the experience of a climb, they also put access at risk.
Borrie, William T. and Harding, James A. (2002). Effective recreation visitor communication strategies: Rock climbers in the Bitterroot Valley, Montana. USDA Forest Service RMRS-RN-15.
Ewert, Alan & Hollenhorst, Steve. (1994). Individual and setting attributes of the adventure recreation experience. Leisure Sciences 16, 177-191.
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jsoper
Feb 27, 2006, 5:51 PM
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just like any other group, some people are just donkeys, and its not right to generalise and say that all climbers are vandals as it not right to say that everyone who grew up in the sixties in a pot-smoking, tree hugging hippie. i agree that the vandalism is wrong, but for you to call those of us who pick up trash at the crags and practice sound LNT priciples vandals, i take offense.
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j_ung
Feb 27, 2006, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: Other than the IHC roof (the chalk will wash with spring rain) it's more likely non-climbers that are etching names and writing crap in the rock. On nearly every trip I've taken to the creek there has been groups of people that were obviously not climbers wandering and hiking around the base of climbs. Of course all we can do is speculate about who did what and why but I personally am quicker to blame the RVing, ATV driving, campsite littering tourists than actual climbers. woodsE BTW: In no way do I support the "chalk art" on IHC but wanted to mention it was less permanent than the other graffiti
In reply to: At the first belay of Primrose Dihedral, someone scratched YETI on the rock.
woodsE, unless I misunderstood what angry meant by "first belay," I think climbers are the culprits on the yeti thing.
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dingus
Feb 27, 2006, 5:55 PM
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In reply to: but we shouldn't ignore the problem in our own midst, that some of those most deserving of the name climber are also our problems.
I totally concur. It was experienced climbers who started the precedent of etching or painting route names first on plaques and ultimately on the cliff faces. Others come along and monkey see, monkey do.
A huge stain of shame on anyone who has ever done this, right back to the forefathers.
DMT
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woodse
Feb 27, 2006, 5:57 PM
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:oops:
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rockguide
Feb 27, 2006, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: When I caught them doing it I went up and told them that was unacceptable and to clean them off. The dad apologized and went and got a brush. Gezz, what are these people thinking??!!
It sounds like he listened, took it well, and learned.
Wow. Usually when you criticise someone's style (esp the father/son or boyfriend/girlfriend combos) they counter attack.
This post shows hope! Somebody listened!
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tagaustatoppen
Feb 27, 2006, 6:21 PM
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I know that you are talking about the rock and how not to vandalize it I completely agree with not waisting what we have. I want my Children to grow up and enjoy the same beauty that I have been blessed with. I however want to ask what do you do when you see people doing stupid things while climbing?
In reply to: These are shots of some thumb width tick marks that some knuckle dragging kid and his soccer dad were putting on every hold they could find at Big Bend. When I caught them doing it I went up and told them that was unacceptable and to clean them off. The dad apologized and went and got a brush. Gezz, what are these people thinking??!! jackflash
Is this the most acceptable way of telling people what they are doing is either unacceptable or unsafe?
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waterman
Feb 27, 2006, 6:33 PM
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First off I think every thing listed in this post is fucked up, i can however see why someone would want to put their name or the routes name on the rock (again i don't agree with the action, just under stand a possible motivation at some level). What i don't get is marking hold... is there a reason people do it? The father and son really confuse me. I could see a-hole climbers marking bad holds to screw everyone else or somthing but what were they doing?
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jackflash
Feb 27, 2006, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: These are shots of some thumb width tick marks that some knuckle dragging kid and his soccer dad were putting on every hold they could find at Big Bend. When I caught them doing it I went up and told them that was unacceptable and to clean them off. The dad apologized and went and got a brush. Gezz, what are these people thinking??!! jackflash Is this the most acceptable way of telling people what they are doing is either unacceptable or unsafe?
I didn't write the quotation that you attribute to me. However, I do think that politely correcting someone is better than hoping that they figure it out on their own.
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jakedatc
Feb 27, 2006, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: What i don't get is marking hold... is there a reason people do it? The father and son really confuse me. I could see a-hole climbers marking bad holds to screw everyone else or somthing but what were they doing?
Tick marks help you see holds along the problem(generally bouldering).. this is useful especially when giong around corners or reaching around aretes. Ticking feet is helpful if the rock is dark or all the same color.. the white sticks out and catches your attention. while leading some people will tick footholds at face level so that when they get there with their feet they save energy by not looking around.
Personally i will tick small feet or blind hand hold with a small mark.. pea sized? that generally wear off before i'm done working the route or i'll brush it off.
the father.son thing seems to me they have seen it in magazines or on other problems and figure it's the thing to do on every problem. The large lines have no practical use.. and marking jugs is also rediculous unless it's a full all points dyno to a blind hold.. even then a small mark will do
some people need the chalk for visualiztion.. lucky for me i'm an obsessive brusher instead (helps me find the sweet spot, cleans the hold, makes me rest)
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jonstantine
Feb 28, 2006, 4:01 AM
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Wow, that sucks. You try to get away from the cities and their pollution and graffitti only to find more pollution and graffitti. It's sad.
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shanz
Feb 28, 2006, 4:22 AM
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Just plain unacceptable climb it free- id rather climb it free than tick mark it to friggin get the redpoint. Even if i cant climb a freaking 12.d as long as i climb a 10.a free its more rewarding in the long run cause i didnt draw it in crayon so i could make the redpoint !!! slack ass beotches!!!!!!!
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fishercrack
Feb 28, 2006, 4:47 AM
Post #19 of 93
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In reply to: I've seen a huge increase in climber caused vandalism. I'm not talking about sport routes, retro-bolting or squeeze jobs. I'm not talking about wads of tape left lying around. I'm not talking about dogs and people trampling every bit of soil in the desert. I'm not talking about HUGE tick-marks under roofs that will never clean off. I'm not talking about people putting climbing stickers on signs. I'm not even talking people who can't seem to bury their do-do. I'm talking about straight up, no excuse, rock vandalism. The roof under Incredible Hand Crack now has chalk art handprints. You'll only be able to smudge them with a brush, they need hosed off. The rock next to Coyne Crack say "(I forgot the name) sucks" then sucks is crossed out and "kicks ass" is written under it. At the first belay of Primrose Dihedral, someone scratched YETI on the rock. At the same belay someone wrote 2 other names in chalk. This sort of thing is without question coming from climbers. I can't even express the anger and sadness I feel at this. The sport I feel most connected with and the people who are closest in soul to me, are willfully vandalizing what it's all about. The rock. |
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lewisiarediviva
Feb 28, 2006, 4:56 AM
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The City of Rocks National Monument is a great example of vandalism. Infact, the rocks with the most vandalism are under historic protection- so you can't climb on them in fear that the vandalism will wear away.
Oh, and I take my children to those rocks and we oooo and aaahhhh and oooo and aaahhhh. We practically worship the vandalism. "Axial grease on Rock" the medium. 200 years old the work. About 20 bird flight miles west their are sandstone cliffs that those California bound folks carved their names into. Their was a big uproar a few years ago about everyone else carving their names. . . The Vandalism! Did the 21st century folks do anything different then the 19th? No, but the concern was that so and so's name from 1865 or what ever would be written over (I've touched it, trust me the wind and snow will destroy it first).
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organic
Feb 28, 2006, 5:19 AM
Post #21 of 93
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In reply to: Just plain unacceptable climb it free- id rather climb it free than tick mark it to friggin get the redpoint. Even if i cant climb a freaking 12.d as long as i climb a 10.a free its more rewarding in the long run cause i didnt draw it in crayon so i could make the redpoint !!! slack ass beotches!!!!!!!
Um' if you tic marked a 5.10a I would just laugh. Chalk art is pretty rediculous but tic marks have been the time honored argument. If you don't like them clean them off, if you do like them use them. Also there is always going to be this vandalism with teenagers climbing &c. So either ban teenagers from climbing or suck it up. I did some retarded things when I was a teenager for no reason and I am sure everyone else did, deal with it.
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mesomorf
Feb 28, 2006, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: A huge stain of shame on anyone who has ever done this, right back to the forefathers.
Is it known who pecked the cross at the base of the regular route on Higher Cathedral Spire? It's pretty well overgrown with lichen now.
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calii22
Feb 28, 2006, 7:09 AM
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yeah I agree ticks suck "IF you dont clean them off. But geez people you all dog to much--go climb inside! Or maybe if you dont like what the sport is becoming. QUIT! Not everyone is the same and you cant enforce rules everywhere just cause you dont like something. Just my two cents love the rock and even the beautiful chalk.
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coldclimb
Feb 28, 2006, 7:34 AM
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Chalk up another plus for Alaska. There's hardly any chalk on the rock here, and it rains so much it all washes away anyway. But I do sympathize with those of you not wanting chalk, I really don't like seeing it myself. The biggest damage I see around here though is trails carved by day hikers that branch off from the main trail, yet travel the same route and go to the same place. Especially the hills, where everyone has to cut their own switchbacks, and they all have to walk side-by-side. It gets ugly on the more popular trails at the places I climb. :(
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getsomeethics
Feb 28, 2006, 8:11 AM
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In reply to: I'm talking about straight up, no excuse, rock vandalism. The roof under Incredible Hand Crack now has chalk art handprints. You'll only be able to smudge them with a brush, they need hosed off. The rock next to Coyne Crack say "(I forgot the name) sucks" then sucks is crossed out and "kicks ass" is written under it. At the first belay of Primrose Dihedral, someone scratched YETI on the rock. At the same belay someone wrote 2 other names in chalk. This sort of thing is without question coming from climbers. I can't even express the anger and sadness I feel at this. The sport I feel most connected with and the people who are closest in soul to me, are willfully vandalizing what it's all about. The rock.
I think there is some deep down (and obviously at times uncontrollable) desire for people to leave something behind that tells other people "i was here".
look at well worn hiking trails that have cairns along them. They are not unsightley or destructive by any stretch, but why make one, or add to an existing one, if the trail is obvious? Might not be the best example, but to me it says that somebody wants to leave their mark. It happens everywhere though not just on climbs, by climbers. Even on the moon.
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