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tradman
Mar 6, 2006, 3:21 PM
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Yeah that reminds me:
if you think mixed climbing with spurs is so easy, why don't you go and do Musashi?
In fact, come over here to scotland and you can send Too Fast Too Furious, also M12. You can sleep in my spare room and I'll drive you to the cave where the route is and video it. I'm dead serious.
Any takers?
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talons05
Mar 6, 2006, 3:36 PM
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Scene: Enter the god of Supreme Style
[*Trumpets*]
I command thee to turn from thy sinful ways! Thou shalt not use any tools whatsoever in climbing the frozen falls! Only shalt thou climb using your bare hands. Thou shalt trim your fingernails because any length of nail shall be considered an affront to my name! I shall smite thee mightily should you ignore these pristine commandments!!!
Give me a break, y'all. It's ALL cheating unless you're climbing naked propelled only by flatulence and divine will.
Cheers,
A.W.
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microbarn
Mar 6, 2006, 3:59 PM
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Sorry, but with my flatulence, EVERYONE would consider me an aider. I have too much of an advantage.
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brent_e
Mar 6, 2006, 5:26 PM
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the mushashi vid is pretty good!
No one has mentioned this. You people climb to have fun, yes? Have you ever pulled a heel hook with a heel spur? It's freakin awesome!
Brent
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dru
Mar 6, 2006, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: Yeah that reminds me: if you think mixed climbing with spurs is so easy, why don't you go and do Musashi? In fact, come over here to scotland and you can send Too Fast Too Furious, also M12. You can sleep in my spare room and I'll drive you to the cave where the route is and video it. I'm dead serious. Any takers?
Actually Will did it in February and downrated it significantly. Here is the quote from his blog:
In reply to: Headed back ino the Quarry, and had some more fun including discussing grades. It's an interesting discussion--Fast and Furious is an M10+ bareback, spurs likely drop that grade only a bit, call it M10ish. The continuation of Fast and Furious is Too Fast and Furious, which is much steeper but still on bomber drilled hooks (no issue with that, we're talking a rather swampy hole in the ground totally created by man, there are old bore holes all over the routes anyhow). You can spur the drilled holes very easily on Too Fast, I don't see it being much harder than Fast if done Comp style, I'd guess a max of 10+. Bareback I'd say M11+, there are two no-hands rests and some good footcams when needed. There are no "hard" moves, just pulling along bomber pick holes. |
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devkrev
Mar 6, 2006, 9:33 PM
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When you do it, don't use spurs.
its that easy.
dev
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builttospill
Mar 7, 2006, 12:17 AM
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The way I see it, devkrev is pretty much right. I probably won't ever climb with heel spurs, and I'll also never climb at a very high level. This debate is easier to solve than the bolts on a trad line and/or bolts on an aid line, etc. That reduces the commitment for later parties, whereas this doesn't. I think it looks kind of crazy, but to each their own I suppose.
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adeptus
Mar 7, 2006, 8:39 AM
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I have done M10 with spurs. I can say that there is no way I could have done it without. It is bad style, because you can rest your way up any climb when you have a certan amount of stamina.
Anybody who has climbed hard mixed routes with and without spur will tell you that it is cheating.
Bare back is the only way to go...
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tradman
Mar 7, 2006, 9:38 AM
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In reply to: Actually Will did it in February and downrated it significantly
Yes, that was very funny!
What a shame it had already had the grade confirmed at M12 by better and stronger climbers than will gadd. Will's been a good sport and we've all had a good time laughing at him, especially when he "downgraded" Jedi Mind Tricks, which had just seen its first repeat by the guy who FA'd Too Fast Too Furious, without even climbing it!
:lol:
You know, we'd all just love to downgrade everything in the world when will gadd says so, but sadly he's just another over-hyped spraylord who thinks he has the right to tell us all how to climb, so we don't really pay very much attention to his boasting and whining.
Again, if it's so easy, why don't you get over here and flash it? While you're here you can show us all how heel spurs make it easy for you to climb the world's hardest trad mixed line, The Hurting, which is also here in Scotland.
:wink:
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dru
Mar 7, 2006, 11:55 PM
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:roll: Will never downrated Jedi Mind Tricks. You must be thinking of Alcatraz which dropped from "hyped M14" to M12.
The Hurting the hardest trad line? There's quite a few trad M10s out there, some of which are still unrepeated... and which were even done pre-spurs. Has Dave Mac ever tried to repeat Logical Progression?
Facts are facts - Scott Muir has never been able to do any of these hard mixed lines spurless. And spur ascents are just training for the bareback redpoint.
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tradman
Mar 8, 2006, 9:06 AM
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In reply to: Will never downrated Jedi Mind Tricks.
Wrong. He's been telling everyone who'll listen that it's not that hard, especially if you use spurs. Which is funny since he can't even touch the thing.
In reply to: The Hurting the hardest trad line? There's quite a few trad M10s out there, some of which are still unrepeated...
The Hurting is a trad M10/11 you pillock. It's not really technically the hardest by much, but has big ground fall potential from poor gear and a couple of very bad moves because the route is natural. It has the additional problem that it's in scotland, which means no sunny days, no easy walk-in and no drilled holds to rest on!
:lol:
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will_gadd
Mar 8, 2006, 8:20 PM
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tradman, I don't think I've ever met you. You seem pretty wound up about my views on spurs, yet you clearly don't actually know what I think.
For the record, I think using or not using spurs is about style, not ethics. If someone wants to climb with spurs or an extension laddeer, or even a lawn chair as Ben Firth once did, then in all seriousness right on. I helped a couple of friends build spurs while in Scotland two weeks ago--you have some very nice "home improvement" stores there. Kev's ascent of Fast and Furious was a rad effort--with spurs. I'm with Brent on spurs being fun, they are!
I have downrated routes when they deserved it, and upgraded routes for the same reasons. If someone puts a new hanging belay in the middle of an 8a (13b) pitch then it's likely not 8a anymore. If someone finds 20 new knee bars on an 8b roof pitch then it's not likely 8b anymore. Bolt-on spurs are far better than knee bars, and come close to a hanging belay whenever required to de-pump. Think of those "gravity boots" for hanging off pull-up bars. Good spurs are that good. Sitting on a stein chair is as good as a hanging belay for de-pumping. It's not complicated. Albert, Bubu, Dave Mac, Hari, Ines, a lot of people have figured this out on both sides of the Atlantic and rated climbs as they see 'em. Albert's got his grade chart up somewhere.
For me, climbing without spurs is more technical, pumpy and engaging. It's not more "ethical," it just feels like a reasonable compromise on gear and effort in a crazy sport. "Bareback" style is pretty close to old-school style (big boots, leashes) in terms of effort, and grades roughly measure effort required to send. You can get on Musashi bareback and it will take about the same amount of effort as climbing it old-school. I'd rate both ascents M12, and have. With spurs/trickery it's possible to climb up and down it repeatedly and still not fall off, it's been done. I'd call that a lot easier than M12. Spurs are a relatively new addition to the mixed game, and a lot of us have been climbing without spurs since the spring of 2004. This year every new hard route and repeat was done without spurs, with the exception of Scott's efforts. I email regularly with Scott, he's solid with me even if we don't see mixed climbing the same way (he says he's spur-free for next year).
Here's a challenge for you, tradman: Stop spraying and go climb Too Fast both with spurs/tool trickery and bareback, as Dave Mac did. I think you'll see the differences pretty quick, but have a ton of fun regardless.
As for the Hurting, if Dave Mac found it hard then it is. After climbing with him in Scotland it's dead obvious he can climb brilliantly (and he's got some solid ethics). Jedi, I have no idea how hard it would be bareback. Ryan Nelson found it harder than Alcatraz with spurs, but nobody has tried it bareback that I know of. Maybe I "can't touch it," but what are you basing that comment on? Might have to go do it now, thanks for the motivation.
So that's what I think about ethics and spurs. Winter climbing is crazy, it's fun, let's get amongst! I hope the cold conditions in Scotland continue, sounds like things are going OFF there!
wg
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devkrev
Mar 8, 2006, 8:59 PM
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be careful of what you say on the internet....you never know who is listening :D
dev
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brent_e
Mar 9, 2006, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: be careful of what you say on the internet....you never know who is listening :D dev
for sure! it's a suprise that Mr. Gadd actually posted up! good, too.
I wish, though, that making the statement that "heal hooking is fun" came from more experience on my part.
total number of ice climbing heel hooks: ~5
number of lies posted personally on RC.com: ~1000
new ice tools and crampons: 600
Having Will Gadd agree with you: priceless
some things money can't buy.
For everything else, there's rockclimbing.com
Brent
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chalkfree
Mar 9, 2006, 5:27 AM
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If anybody watched that bdel vid of will gadd climbing, there was one interesting thought that bears repeating,
"[In mixed climbing] there are no complicated rules, you can do whatever comes naturally, or unnaturally."
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builttospill
Mar 9, 2006, 8:58 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: be careful of what you say on the internet....you never know who is listening :D dev for sure! it's a suprise that Mr. Gadd actually posted up! good, too. I wish, though, that making the statement that "heal hooking is fun" came from more experience on my part. total number of ice climbing heel hooks: ~5 number of lies posted personally on RC.com: ~1000 new ice tools and crampons: 600 Having Will Gadd agree with you: priceless Brent
That's impressive. 931 posts and over 1000 lies! Nice ratio!
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tradman
Mar 9, 2006, 9:38 AM
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In reply to: Stop spraying and go climb Too Fast both with spurs/tool trickery and bareback
I did try it bareback for a laugh just before the winter season started. Can't say I got very far though! :lol:
The problem I have with what you've said is straightforward: ethics - whether climbing or otherwise - are not determined by one person. They're a consensus opinion on what's right and what's not.
When sticky boots first appeared, some climbers wanted them ruled as "cheating", and to be fair they did make climbing easier than before. However, the mass of climbers adopted them, and the general consensus came to be that they weren't cheating.
It does work the other way too: resin makes climbing on some stone much, much easier, but the consensus is that it's a cheat, so few people use it.
The same will be true of heel spurs: you or dumby or bubu may well not like them, and you are of course free to lecture the great unwashed on what they should or shouldn't do as your ego dictates. However, in the end it's not up to you, or me, or any individual - the mass of climbers will decide for themselves.
I appreciate your opinion, and your reply, and I apologise if I've quoted you out of context or got the wrong idea about what you think. However, I'm going to stand on my opinion just as you stand on yours: I don't think it's up to you to tell the community how to climb. Individuals may pay attention to you or even follow your guidelines according to their own needs, but ultimately the issue will be decided by the endless crowd of fumbling wassnames of which I am so very happy to be a part.
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brent_e
Mar 9, 2006, 2:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: be careful of what you say on the internet....you never know who is listening :D dev for sure! it's a suprise that Mr. Gadd actually posted up! good, too. I wish, though, that making the statement that "heal hooking is fun" came from more experience on my part. total number of ice climbing heel hooks: ~5 number of lies posted personally on RC.com: ~1000 new ice tools and crampons: 600 Having Will Gadd agree with you: priceless Brent That's impressive. 931 posts and over 1000 lies! Nice ratio!
I'm a busy little bee! :D
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kubi
Mar 9, 2006, 3:03 PM
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In reply to: However, I'm going to stand on my opinion just as you stand on yours: I don't think it's up to you to tell the community how to climb. Individuals may pay attention to you or even follow your guidelines according to their own needs, but ultimately the issue will be decided by the endless crowd of fumbling wassnames of which I am so very happy to be a part.
I don't belive Will Gadd is telling anyone how to climb, he's simply saying that if you use heel spurs or go bareback, you need to let people know. It's a style issue. Nobody cares what style you did the route in, you just need to be honest about how you did it.
btw, someone needs to come up with a term besides "bareback." I keep wanting to tell people it's not safe, wear a condom.
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tradman
Mar 9, 2006, 4:07 PM
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:lol:
Bareback with crampons on?
Risky.
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brent_e
Mar 9, 2006, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: :lol: Bareback with crampons on? Risky.
WHILE heel hooking!!!
:shock:
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will_gadd
Mar 9, 2006, 6:11 PM
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:D that's funny. I liked the name "bareback" because of the non-saddle, non-spur connotation with horses, and also 'cause I got completely and totally soaked on the send of Game Reloaded and had to strip in the cave. My partner thought that was pretty funny, and suggested bareback-style for no clothes... There were some people at the time who wanted to call climbing without spurs "Free" and "Pure," I thought the whole thing was a bit pretentious and wanted to poke a bit of fun at ourselves, so using the term with its horses/humor/sex/drug/ references seemed appropriate... Maybe it wasn't, sometimes humor is like that.
tradman wrote, "The same will be true of heel spurs: you or dumby or bubu may well not like them, and you are of course free to lecture the great unwashed on what they should or shouldn't do as your ego dictates. "
When have I ever told anyone that spurs are evil, or that I don't like them and so "the masses" shouldn't? I've told a lot of people how to climb--but only while teaching clinics, and they asked for it. Where have I told anyone how to climb as far as style goes? I'm not trying to dictate "the rules" to anyone, I'm not so good with rules myself. For me bareback is more fun and puts the pump clock back into mixed climbing, others can and should do whatever works for them at the end of the day.
Give 'er!
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lambone
Mar 9, 2006, 9:59 PM
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Jeeze Will you are so freakin' pretentious...
STFU nOOb! :lol:
Just kidding man, we love you, thanks for posting here.
I saw some photos of one of your latest projects in that monster cave up there, looks gnar. good luck, have fun!
http://www.ascensionist.com/...25&an=0&page=0#14125
~bone
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secretninja
Jan 7, 2007, 10:00 PM
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Dumb question, but are spurs allowed in comps?
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