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taller_climber_dude
Mar 16, 2006, 8:43 PM
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i have been a rope instructor for about 3yrs and wondering if i got this training technique down.
for rappel and just rappel i start off with
1 knots i show them how to tie and which knots are best to use
2 the type devices they could use. and how to use them and how not to use them
3 method of rappel. i show them the method that the gear manufacture suggest, since there are many. and a few emergency methods(for emergency's only)
4 anchor building. to have min of 3 points for trad and at least one piece of passive gear or use of rap anchors
after all that i take them out to a small rock and have them put to use everything they learned.
most of the friends I'm teaching are going into the fire dept which may have different techniques for training, etc...
is there anything that i might have missed or could be useful to know that i did not talk about
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the_mitt
Mar 16, 2006, 10:10 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:31 PM)
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aaronbr86
Mar 16, 2006, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: Are you going to put them on belay for their first rap? If so, how? Fireman's, or second system? I can hear the conversation now. student: You sure you know what your doing? Jammer: Yup asked some people on the Internet and they said my system is safe. If the people you are teaching are dumb enough to follow you I say let them go maybe Darwin will help the climbing/rappelling community by weeding a few of the weak ones out. Just please make sure you are standing directly under the people you are instructing as that will eventually make it safer for everyone. Mitt Let the flames begin
Mitt,
I believe you have the user names confused. Jammer wasnt the one asking the questions. He was posting a reply.
-Aaron
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taller_climber_dude
Mar 16, 2006, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: Are you going to put them on belay for their first rap?
yes they will be on belay. yes they will be on a second system. and i will move down and pull fireman when i feel they can do it with out being on belay
no jammer i didn't take it hard. I was hoping to get more info on training technique,in other words better ways to teach the same thing.
the way i learn has been change a bit.
thanks
The stupid question is the question that is not asked. Better to look stupid then to do something stupid.
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the_mitt
Mar 16, 2006, 11:44 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:32 PM)
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the_mitt
Mar 16, 2006, 11:48 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:32 PM)
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buckyllama
Mar 20, 2006, 2:52 PM
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Personally I prefer an iterative approach to teaching. I feel that if you present all the information in a "classroom" setting and then have them try to remember it all at once, they won't. For teaching rappel, I do the following.
Get somewhere you can rappel. Set up everything using 1 type of device only. Do all the setup, and then just explain to them and demonstrate to them how to start and do the rappel. Have them do it. (belayed of course).
Next teach them how to rig their part of the system. They've used it once now so this usually goes pretty quick. It's no longer an abstract concept. Then have them rap again.
Tear down your anchor and rebuild it while explaining what you are doing. Tear it down again and have them build it. Inspect it, make them set up the rap and do it again.
If you are using a top-belayed system, teach them to set up and belay a fellow student. (provide a firemans or at least keep a hand on the safety rope).
At this point you can get into setting gear, more details of anchor building etc. They have done at least 4 rappels by this point, probably quite a bit more so the mechanics are all clear to them and details will sink in better.
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bill413
Mar 20, 2006, 3:51 PM
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The thing that I found missing in your description is the principles of how it works. Given that, I can (pretty much) figure out how to use any rap device. Without that, I'm stuck with what I've been shown.
In general, people do talk about the principles, but unless they are given a concious place in the instruction, they tend to get short shrift.
Don't misunderstand - it is really important to demonstrate how to use the device properly, and, especially for beginners, critical for them to have hands-on, supervised, belayed experience with it. But, it is important to reinforce how the device works, what it is doing - not just :thread the rope like this, hold it like this, keep your feet like this, and go down slow.
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j_ung
Mar 20, 2006, 4:23 PM
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I'm not familiar with the environment in which you work, but if it's at all possible to forego teaching them to anchor with trad gear, you really should go that route. Are there BFTs? Stable blocks or boulders?
Other tips:
Have them do a practice rappel down a small hill first.
Teach them how to perform the firemens belay themselves.
Extend clip-in points with a runner so you don't get clothes, hair and helmet chin straps caught in the device.
Learn to set up and operate the releasable rappel rig, so if things get caught in devices despite the long runner extension, you can fix the problem from the top of the cliff.
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taller_climber_dude
Mar 20, 2006, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: mitt worte:So if your a rope instructor, what exactly do you teach rope to do? Does rope learn quickly or is it pretty stupid. Or did you mean a climbing instructor?
sorry for the bad description of myself mitt, and everyone else
what i mean by ropes instructor is: i'm a rope instructor at a summer camp which contain many different climbing elements. where i often train other employes how to use them and safely belay/take campers safely on all the elements. most of training i've done was at the camp on the climbing wall and other elements.
i'm showing a firend of mine whom is working on getting a job in the fire dept as am i. i'm just trying to give him a head start on some of things he will be trained to do, and rappeling is one of the things. i won't be train him on trad placement unless he wants to get into climbing himself. i will take him(my friend) on a nice small which you can walk up. and work with him on how to use a figure8 and the rappel method and knots and what i will be doing to keep him self. he will be on belay on his first reppal and many after until i know hes ready to to do it off belay. then i will pull fireman. i don't if the fire dept trains belaying, on most of the engines they have hoist devies. al the same all will show how to belay.
thanks. sorry i confused some of you
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mhabicht
Mar 20, 2006, 9:37 PM
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I have a few qestions and tips.
We like this nmemonic-
ABCDE
Anchor
Buckles
Carabiner
Device (correctly threaded and clipped)
Ends of the rope! Dumb way to die
Ok- now you can lean back into the rope....
About rigging the belay device at the belay loop or extending it out...
If I were guiding a climb and needed to rap I would extend the clients rap point and pre rig them, not while teaching standard rapping. For this I would use a tension releasable rap line with a back up belay from the top. This allows you to take over the lowering at any point for any reason. I suggest this method over extending the belay because you want to teach them reality as best as possible, not guided rapping, rather teaching everyday standard rapping techniques.
If you do not understand what I am saying please take an AMGA TR course- it is currently the standard of practice required by National Parks
-michael
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veganboyjosh
Mar 20, 2006, 9:48 PM
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i like the idea of the practice rap on a hill. surely you can find something steep enough where the weight of the rapeller will pull them downt he rope, while should they fall or lose control of their rope/device, they won't careen to their death. it's also a good way to show them to keep their legs perpendicular to the wall/ground.
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gunkiemike
Mar 20, 2006, 9:49 PM
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A few comments.
A releasable anchor is important. A separate belay or a fireman's brake is not sufficient if they get hair or clothing sucked into the device.
If they are FD bound, find out what device and techniques the local stations use and teach that. It may not be what you use as a climber.
You said you'd show them how to do it and how NOT to do it. I wouldn't show them how not to do it. There's a chance that they'll remember what they saw and do it someday. Point out what to avoid, but everything that contributes to learning (seeing, doing, hearing) should reinforce only the correct behaviors.
Consider practicing your instruction on someone who can critique it before you "go live". There isn't a teacher out there who hasn't had a lesson plan backfire. And this isn't the time or place to find that out.
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healyje
Mar 20, 2006, 10:51 PM
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I'm actually no particular fan of formal instruction, certification, or the AMGA, but if any are these folks aren't close personal friends I'd say you probably shouldn't be teaching them unless you go get some instruction yourself. Given you seem to enjoy this consider talking to some of the following and get hooked up to instruct:
Ropes That Rescue, LIMITED / A private enterprise from Sedona, AZ. / 520.282.7299
CMC Rescue A private enterprise from Santa Barbara, CA. / 800.227.9281
.
NCRC (National Cave Rescue Commission) / a national nonprofit organization that provides multilevel seminars in different locations around the country / 909.387.0686
On Rope 1 / A private enterprise from Harrison, TN. / 423.344.4716
Rigging For Rescue / A private enterprise from Invermere, BC, Canada / 604.342.6042
SBSD Cave Rescue Team / A local team that provides local NCRC Seminars and other rope rescue classes / 909.387.0686
American Mountain Guides Association / a non-profit organization that seeks to represent the interests of American mountain guides by providing support, education, and standards / 303.271.0984
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taller_climber_dude
Mar 22, 2006, 1:47 AM
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rappel rappel rappel
thanks for all the info. it helped a lot, and showed me some better and safer ways to train others.
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