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Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorge
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jonqdoe


Mar 19, 2006, 11:50 AM
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Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorge
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Mark Meyer, the property owner of Torrent Falls at the RRG, is threatening to close the crag to the public. He posted this at redriverclimbing.com; the entire thread can be found here:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=6589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

In reply to:
For those of you who do not know me, my name is Mark Meyer. My wife, Kathy, and I own and operate Torrent Falls. This posting is to put a formal notice that Torrent Falls Climbing Crag is up for closure. This is under serious consideration.

I was going to close the crag until I brought the subject up to the RRGCC board members. Fortunately, they had their board meeting at Torrent this past weekend. Upon their recommendation, I am keeping the crag open until the enclosed rules are met. But if these rules are not strictly adhered to, the crag will close on May 1, 2006.

Prior to my dissertation, I would like to personally thank those who worked at trail day this past weekend. I have walked the trail, and the work completed exceeded my expectations. Thank you, thank you. These efforts, conducted by total volunteers, helped delay my actions.

My family lives by a simple rule, treat people as you want to be treated. So if you owned this beautiful piece of property, put yourself in my shoes. We are a “For Profit” business. This land was not free, the labor put into this land was not free, the parking area was not free, and tools used to develop this property were not free. I do not understand where climbers get off that “Climbing should be Free”. Before anyone says anything, how much donations have you put into the box? Then compare it with my costs. I am talking about what it costs me to allow climbers to climb on my property and the aggravation it continues to cause my family. Think about all these dogs coming onto a property that you owned disturbing your guests and defecating in your yard. Then think about all these climbers coming onto your property pissing in your and defecating in your yard. Think about all the wear and tear on your trails. Think about people coming onto your property and moving your chairs around without permission or putting them back. Think about people parking in spots that are reserved for your guests. Think about all the foul language disturbing your family and your guests by a bunch of inconsiderate, immature, little babies in an adult body. Yes, I am illustrating my frustration. But this is not the first time; these issues have been brought up. It is a privilege to climb here. Remember, this property used to be closed to climbing. This is private land and it has reached a point that enough is enough. I do not make money for the aggravation. It would be cheaper for me to close climbing. I do not need the aggravation and policing. Again, think about Torrent as if you owned it and operated a family run business from it. By letting climber’s climb here, I am demonstrating that I am really a nice guy.

With that preface, and a show of my frustration, these following rules shall be applied, or the crag will be closed by May 1, 2006. And if that day passes, and climbing is still allowed, if it gets out of hand again, climbing will be closed with no grace period. Climbing will remain open for cabin/room guests.

1. All pets must be on leashes, at all times that they are on the property. We have had a terrible time with dogs visiting our home, our guest’s cottages, and guest’s vehicles UNIVITED. Leash them or leave them at home.

Carry a bag with you and clean up after your pet.

Any dog or pet that has been known to fight or bite another pet must be muzzled. No exceptions.

Any dog or pet that has been known to bite a human being shall not be permitted at Torrent Falls. If a dog or pet bites and individual, that pet will be destroyed immediately. You can consider this a formal notice.

2. Do not release bodily fluids or defecate on Torrent grounds except in public bathrooms located at the BBQ. If donations pick up, a portable toilet will be supplied at Torrent Falls. I have seen on more than one occasion, climbers pissing in my front parking lot. I do not go to your home and piss in your front yard. How would you like it if all my friends and myself came to your back yard and defecated? Over time, it adds up.

On a side note, realize that the public restrooms are not free. It cost material and labor to build it. There are permit costs. Then there is the expense in maintaining, cleaning, and supplies. City water is not free. Sewage treatment is not free (installation was over $55,000). All we ask is to donate $2.00 per climber.

3. Do not ask to use the rest room at the B&B or main house. Think of it as if it were your home. Total strangers coming up to your home, muddy, sweaty, and asking “Can I use your rest room?”

4. Do not move the chairs from around the fire pit. These are for paying B&B guests.

5. No fires.

6. Do not use ropes or routes designated for Torrent Falls use. These are clearly marked and are for guided climbing and rappelling.

7. Park at the bottom parking lot and do not block parking designated for cabin use only. These parking spots are for paying customers.

8. Do not park in the paved parking lot at the Torrent Church.

9. A donation of $2.00 per person is strongly recommended.

10. Do not litter. This has become a real problem with climbers lately and it never used to be.

11. No foul language. My family and guests are sick and tired of the foul language being used on this property. It reminds me of why I closed rappelling. Rappelling has remained permanently closed. This is truly insulting public behavior. Buy your own crag and cuss all you want to. Do not trespass your potty mouth onto my family that lives here. You could consider continuing this behavior (or lack of self control) and disclose to the world how you want people to think of the climbing community. I will close the crag on this issue alone or the dog issue alone.

12. Be considerate to the owners of the property and it’s guests. Treat people, as you want to be treated. Do you want a friendly greeting or do you want to be ignored, abused, pissed on, and trespassed on? Remember, it is a privilege to climb on someone’s private property.

13. No rappelling with the exception of finishing a climbing route.

14. No night climbing.

15. Climbing ends at dusk. Climbers should be off the crag by dark.

16. No parking your car here and leaving the crag. You park here, you climb here. The parking lot is too small for a depository.

17. Use existing trails. It costs a great deal to put these trails in.

I am sorry that it has come to this. But with the increase in traffic to the area, something needs to be done. There may be additions to this policy as time moves on. I have a Kiosk at Torrent. Changes will be posted there.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Mark Meyer


misfits


Mar 19, 2006, 2:33 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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Thanks for posting this info. I haven't been on the Red site for a while. I've linked it to another forum for alot of the folks in Southern Ontario who spend alot of time in the Red.

Cheers,
JJ


overlord


Mar 20, 2006, 7:23 AM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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man, that sucks, but i cad definitely understand the owners. we had a similar case here at a really big crag, but thankfully an alternate acess was established so the landowner is no longer disturbed.


reg


Mar 20, 2006, 1:37 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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gotta go with mark on this one - man the foul language i hear everywhere is unpleasant esp. with my wife or daughter around. be what you want - just don't throw it in my face!
here we go with the dogs again - and again i agree with the land owners. leave um home! i take my labrador in the woods for walks (used to run with me but age has caught up) but i don't take him to the crag.
i've never climbed at the red (been to Miguel's though) but if i did i would gladly donate some duckets to help mark out - you RRG climbers should be dropin ah 5 in the bucket from time to time - look what your gettin!
hummmm,,,,,,,,,,cabins and climbing. might have to check torrent falls out!


jkarns


Mar 20, 2006, 2:05 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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Good luck with this one, RRG climbers. Mark has every right to be upset, and its a shame that we have not yet figured out how to act. I'm seeing a similar scene play out in my neck of the woods. WHy do climbers always think that they are above the rules?

My unfortunate prediction... Climbers temporarily get their act together, but the area gets closed by May 1, 2007.


fallingup


Mar 20, 2006, 3:40 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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After reading the post I am quite shocked. There is absolutely NO excuse climbers can give for any of the items Mark has raised. This is his PRIVATE PROPERTY, not some remote crag. The fact he has not shut it down and is willing to work with climbers speaks volumes for his generosity and we as climbers should respond in kind. It's not hard to not be an asshole.

fallingup (former KY resident, been going to the Gorge since I was 11)


keith_b00ne


Mar 20, 2006, 4:58 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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This is not just a problem at Torrent, but most crags I have been at. I was at Creature Feature on Fantasia Wall in RRG and someone made a fire pit at the base of the climb. BIG NO NO..... Think about the long term future of public and private land. There is only so much of it.


jkarns


Mar 21, 2006, 2:05 PM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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In reply to:
This is not just a problem at Torrent, but most crags I have been at. I was at Creature Feature on Fantasia Wall in RRG and someone made a fire pit at the base of the climb. BIG NO NO..... Think about the long term future of public and private land. There is only so much of it.

Agreed, but the big issue I think is that Mark's house is like 100 feet away from the crag. Climbers need to be on thier best behavior, something that they are notoriously bad at. I really hope rrgcc can get lots of signs up really warning people about this.


captainstatic


Mar 26, 2006, 3:01 AM
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Re: Potential Closure of Torrent Falls at the Red River Gorg [In reply to]
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After an incident this last week Torrent is implementing a NO DOGS policy:
Hello Everyone,

In reply to:
I feel one of the easiest ways to eliminate the problem at Torrent Falls is to implement a NO Pet Policy. No dogs, cats, ferrets, etc. Rule No. 1 will read as follows:

1. Absolutely No Pets at Torrent Falls Resort. That includes the BBQ. You can leave your pet in the car, but it is best to leave them at home. Strictly Enforced.

Just this past week, we had a dog barking all day long. Other climbers and my daughter, who is home schooling, were finally fed up. One of the climbers shouted "Shut the F_ _ _ up" from the cliff line. If I eliminate the dog problem then hopefully this potty mouth climber can shut the F_ _ _ up. I have a full house (as in lodging) all week and people still have a problem with courtesy. We will see if this helps in keeping Torrent Open or Not. What ever happend to just going up to someone and asking them to nicely keep their dog quiet? You should have heard my daughter, who does not say curse words, try to explain this to Kathy. I am glad my kids can control their use of the English language better than others who happen to be much older.

Mark Meyer


sonso45


Apr 28, 2006, 3:30 AM
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I've stayed at torrent falls B&B with Mark and his wonderful family. I enjoyed their company and the crag. I marveled that he let climbers come onto the grounds of his commercial and private property.

While I sat on the porch of the cabin I saw many climbers drive up and park, walk by the donation box and go climb. Every one of them will be pissed when they can't climb there anymore. Maybe they'll just have to pay to climb at their gym.


captainstatic


Apr 29, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to:
I am happy to announce Torrent Falls Sport Climbing will remain open. There has been a total turn around in the area of respect. I believe the No Dog policy was the single biggest and best decision. Also the Portolet on the property has helped. Although we occasionally still get the people pissing in my yard, it has greatly changed. The level of awareness by all those great people in "getting the word out", has also made a great difference. Thanks to all of you for helping.

The following rules still apply

1. No Dogs or Pets

2. Use the Portalets, not my yard.

3. Do not ask to use the rest room at the B&B or main house.

4. Do not move the chairs from around the fire pit.

5. No fires.

6. Do not use ropes or routes designated for Torrent Falls use.

7. Park at the bottom parking lot and do not block parking designated for cabin use only.

8. Do not park in the paved parking lot at the Torrent Church.

9. A donation of $2.00 per person is strongly recommended.

10. Do not litter.

11. No foul language.

12. Be considerate to the owners of the property and it’s guests.

13. No rappelling with the exception of finishing a climbing route.

14. No night climbing.

15. Climbing ends at dusk.

16. No parking your car here and leaving the crag.

17. Use existing trails.

18. Limit climbing groups to 6 or less. No swarming the crag.

Thanks for your cooperation and thanks to the RRGCC.
Mark Meyer


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