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thetroutscout
May 4, 2006, 8:51 PM
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I'm not complaining about a "walk off" and the ones that come to mind, a walk off isn't possible. The point is we can have everyone making their own additions, some not knowing what they are doing, when it could have been easily solved in the first place. You really want someone like the original poster making his contribution to the anchor? I've looked into the expensive of putting up routes and since I can't afford to do it properly, I don't. For the most part, things are great and when a rap is in order it is usually set so its possible. I don't see how people can call me an ass because I don't like a half done job. I so appreciate all the route setters that spend their time and money developing new routes. We all owe them alot But if someone was building you a house and they left out a wall, you'd be upset. I do my part to contribute the way I know how. I always pick up trash, cut off trashed webbing and practice "leave no trace." So am I supposed to hunt down all the route developers and give them a few bucks? Why should I leave a few biners just to have the bootied by the next dude. I hope to learn how to bolt and be able to afford it someday and with that great responsibility I want to do it properly. We have to be versatile as climbers and be able to handle all sorts of dilemmas. But there is enough to worry about though and small things like this can go along way insuring safety of others. Am I still an cheap ass? Why are all you bolters putting up new routes then? Perhaps you love this sport and have kindness towards others. My original point was its like a champion knot tier, quitting his knot tying in the middle of a knot tying championship. I didn't mean to get everyone so riled up. It's nice to get to the anchor, thread the rope and go. My lazy butt can make do if its not like that but not everyone else can, hense why this post started. If someone in the area is putting up a new route, and are tempted to cute corners, I will gladly spring for a proper anchor.
^^ike
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thetroutscout
May 4, 2006, 9:35 PM
Post #52 of 93
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I'm not complaining about a "walk off" and the ones that come to mind, a walk off isn't possible. The point is we can have everyone making their own additions, some not knowing what they are doing, when it could have been easily solved in the first place. You really want someone like the original poster making his contribution to the anchor? I've looked into the expensive of putting up routes and since I can't afford to do it properly, I don't. For the most part, things are great and when a rap is in order it is usually set so its possible. I don't see how people can call me an ass because I don't like a half done job. I so appreciate all the route setters that spend their time and money developing new routes. We all owe them alot But if someone was building you a house and they left out a wall, you'd be upset. I do my part to contribute the way I know how. I always pick up trash, cut off trashed webbing and practice "leave no trace." So am I supposed to hunt down all the route developers and give them a few bucks? Why should I leave a few biners just to have the bootied by the next dude. I hope to learn how to bolt and be able to afford it someday and with that great responsibility I want to do it properly. We have to be versatile as climbers and be able to handle all sorts of dilemmas. But there is enough to worry about though and small things like this can go along way insuring safety of others. Am I still an cheap ass? Why are all you bolters putting up new routes then? Perhaps you love this sport and have kindness towards others. My original point was its like a champion knot tier, quitting his knot tying in the middle of a knot tying championship. I didn't mean to get everyone so riled up. It's nice to get to the anchor, thread the rope and go. My lazy butt can make do if its not like that but not everyone else can, hense why this post started. If someone in the area is putting up a new route, and are tempted to cute corners, I will gladly spring for a proper anchor.
^^ike
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yazey
May 4, 2006, 10:23 PM
Post #53 of 93
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In reply to: The issue of whether I should have walked off isn't really relevant since I was operating under the assumption (albeit false) that the rap would be safe. Knowing what I know now, I would simply leave a biner on one of the anchors, and thread the rope through the chain on the other.
I understand your argument, but this is where your first critical mistake was made. Never assume any anchor is a "good" if you don't know the history of the anchor (bolt). Especially at Josh. A spot like the thin wall see's so much traffic, and over-abuse on the anchors from scores of noobs who don't know what to do when they see 2 bolts, and a chain that any fixed gear should be eyed with suspicion.
True story: Climbing at Dairy Queen Wall (Josh, for those that don't know) a couple of weeks ago. On top, there is ample room to build anchors with pro, and then towards the edge is a very old, rusty, and spinning 2 bolt repel station. Took one look at the anchor and it was clear that I would be down climbing. Another climber on top was looking for the repel anchors as I began to down climb, and I offered a warning that the bolts looked a little old, and were spinning. He said, "That's alright", in a German accent and started hooking in. We met at the base as he was finishing his repel, he looked a little scared and he said straight away. "I should have down climbed that, those bolts are crap."
Did the bolts fail on him? No
Could they? YES
Will they, eventually fail if not replaced? YES
It comes down to person responsibility to get yourself home after the day. Arm yourself with all the knowledge you can, it may be your only option one day.
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caughtinside
May 4, 2006, 10:38 PM
Post #54 of 93
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In reply to: True story: Climbing at Dairy Queen Wall (Josh, for those that don't know) a couple of weeks ago. On top, there is ample room to build anchors with pro, and then towards the edge is a very old, rusty, and spinning 2 bolt repel station. Took one look at the anchor and it was clear that I would be down climbing. Another climber on top was looking for the repel anchors as I began to down climb, and I offered a warning that the bolts looked a little old, and were spinning. He said, "That's alright", in a German accent and started hooking in. We met at the base as he was finishing his repel, he looked a little scared and he said straight away. "I should have down climbed that, those bolts are crap." Did the bolts fail on him? No Could they? YES Will they, eventually fail if not replaced? YES It comes down to person responsibility to get yourself home after the day. Arm yourself with all the knowledge you can, it may be your only option one day.
Dude! Those bolts are boooooomber! They were like that when I was there in 2002, and they were still like that when I was there this March. 8^)
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jt512
May 4, 2006, 10:46 PM
Post #55 of 93
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In reply to: In reply to: the chain that was dangling into space was put there for your conveniance to put your rope through in order to rap. The bolts were put there to serve as an anchor, eliminating the need to sling a rock w/ webbing. I'm so glad you can climb v4, but don't know how to setup a toprope or rappel. May the ghosts of climbing's legends haunt you until you get your priorities straight. boo. That chain dangling into space was attached to only one bolt. I may be a beginner, but I know that I should not be rapping off of a single piece of protection, unless it is an emergency. If I had to go back and do it again, faced with the choice between threading my new rope through two hangers or that chain, I would still pick the hangers.
If you have to do it again -- on the Thin Wall in J Tree -- walk off.
Jay
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caughtinside
May 4, 2006, 10:52 PM
Post #56 of 93
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: the chain that was dangling into space was put there for your conveniance to put your rope through in order to rap. The bolts were put there to serve as an anchor, eliminating the need to sling a rock w/ webbing. I'm so glad you can climb v4, but don't know how to setup a toprope or rappel. May the ghosts of climbing's legends haunt you until you get your priorities straight. boo. That chain dangling into space was attached to only one bolt. I may be a beginner, but I know that I should not be rapping off of a single piece of protection, unless it is an emergency. If I had to go back and do it again, faced with the choice between threading my new rope through two hangers or that chain, I would still pick the hangers. If you have to do it again -- on the Thin Wall in J Tree -- walk off. Jay
Geez Jay! That walk off is like 20 feet of 3rd class! What are you trying to do, get him ki... er, I mean help him get to the ground safely and under 2 minutes?
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yazey
May 4, 2006, 10:57 PM
Post #57 of 93
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In reply to: Dude! Those bolts are boooooomber! They were like that when I was there in 2002, and they were still like that when I was there this March. 8^)
They're all yours!
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cervicornis
May 5, 2006, 12:17 AM
Post #58 of 93
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In reply to: If you have to do it again -- on the Thin Wall in J Tree -- walk off. Jay
I appreciate all the comments and info. I am learning something.
Unless I missed the best approach/walk-off area from the Thin Wall, this doesn't make sense to me. Am I supposed to believe that it would be safer to walk off the wall (in approaching darkness) rather than rap from two bolts that appear to be in excellent condition (using bail gear)?
I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries.
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sbaclimber
May 5, 2006, 12:30 AM
Post #59 of 93
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In reply to: I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries. |
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cervicornis
May 5, 2006, 12:40 AM
Post #60 of 93
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[quote="yazey"]
I understand your argument, but this is where your first critical mistake was made. Never assume any anchor is a "good" if you don't know the history of the anchor (bolt). Especially at Josh. A spot like the thin wall see's so much traffic, and over-abuse on the anchors from scores of noobs who don't know what to do when they see 2 bolts, and a chain that any fixed gear should be eyed with suspicion.
quote]
I hear you man. I will definitely be sure to carefully assess any bolts or gear I come across.
I don't necessarily think I made a 'critical mistake' in assuming that the two bolts were good, however. I inspected them carefully. That wall sees a ton of traffic, and those bolts serve as the TR anchor for scores of climbers. If they are safe enough to comfortably TR from, where is the mistake in assuming that they are ok to rap from? Again, using bail gear.
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cervicornis
May 5, 2006, 12:43 AM
Post #61 of 93
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In reply to: In reply to: I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries. Ah, but one would involve personal error, the other mechanical. If you were to rappel 1,000 times in the dark, your chances of making a mistake are probably just as high as they would be if you walked 1,000 times, but the difference is that your error while rappeling could be deadly!
I should have clarified - I had friends on the ground who were giving me a fireman belay. The only way I could have fallen to my death is if the bolts failed, my rope got cut, or God himself reached down and unbuckled my harness.
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jimdavis
May 5, 2006, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries. Ah, but one would involve personal error, the other mechanical. If you were to rappel 1,000 times in the dark, your chances of making a mistake are probably just as high as they would be if you walked 1,000 times, but the difference is that your error while rappeling could be deadly!
I dunno man, rapping in the dark on an extablished route....use a headlamp and a backup, knot the ends, carry the ropes with you....sounds pretty safe to me.
Cheers,
Jim
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sbaclimber
May 5, 2006, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries. Ah, but one would involve personal error, the other mechanical. If you were to rappel 1,000 times in the dark, your chances of making a mistake are probably just as high as they would be if you walked 1,000 times, but the difference is that your error while rappeling could be deadly! I dunno man, rapping in the dark on an extablished route.... use a headlamp and a backup, knot the ends, carry the ropes with you....sounds pretty safe to me. Cheers, Jim
Edit, all I am saying is, too many fatal (or just plain bad) accidents happen while rapping, because of some stupid mistake, it happens.
Stack the odds in your favor if you can...
Disclaimer: I probably would have rapped as well, but that is because I am lazy.
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jimdavis
May 5, 2006, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I can see myself slipping and getting hurt if I were to do the walk-off 1,000 times, but I don't see those bolts failing in as many tries. Ah, but one would involve personal error, the other mechanical. If you were to rappel 1,000 times in the dark, your chances of making a mistake are probably just as high as they would be if you walked 1,000 times, but the difference is that your error while rappeling could be deadly! I dunno man, rapping in the dark on an extablished route.... use a headlamp and a backup, knot the ends, carry the ropes with you....sounds pretty safe to me. Cheers, Jim Those things to remember is exactly what I was referring to though. Yes, it is safe, as long as you adhere to all of those things (or as cervic pointed out, you have a fireman's belay), but eventually you *might* forget one of those things, and then it would have been safer to walk. Edit, all I am saying is, too many fatal (or just plain bad) accidents happen while rapping, because of some stupid mistake, it happens. Stack the odds in your favor if you can... Disclaimer: I probably would have rapped as well, but that is because I am lazy.
Me too. I'd stumble and eat shit SO many times on the hike down....I'd rather rap.
Every time I go ice climbing, I eat it on the approach. Once I'm on the ice I'm fine....but it hurts getting there. :oops:
Cheers,
Jim
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sbaclimber
May 5, 2006, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: Me too. I'd stumble and eat s--- SO many times on the hike down....I'd rather rap. Every time I go ice climbing, I eat it on the approach. Once I'm on the ice I'm fine....but it hurts getting there. :oops: |
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curt
May 5, 2006, 1:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Is there anything you can share with us about that day that you did right? Curt Funny how Curt likes to rip on people in the beginners forum for still learning, and having the courage to admit they don't know something. Guess we can let it go though, cause it's not like Curt has ever been there. Yeah, from what I've gathered... Curt is a royal prick. But a knowledgeable one, at least.
Naw--there's no royalty in my family line. I actually commend you for trying to learn something from your mistake. It takes some courage to post about a personal climbing screw-up on a public forum, such as this. Just don't be like jimdavis and remain a n00b for your entire climbing career--and you'll be fine.
Curt
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cervicornis
May 5, 2006, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: It takes some courage to post about a personal climbing screw-up on a public forum, such as this. Curt
Yeah, about as much courage as it takes to call someone a prick on a messageboard...
I don't mind posting questions, I'd like to avoid having my actions discussed ad nauseum in the injuries/accidents forum.
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curt
May 5, 2006, 4:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: It takes some courage to post about a personal climbing screw-up on a public forum, such as this. Curt Yeah, about as much courage as it takes to call someone a prick on a messageboard... I don't mind posting questions, I'd like to avoid having my actions discussed ad nauseum in the injuries/accidents forum.
If that's the case, please try posting your next life-or-death question before you fuck up next time, OK?
Curt
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sbaclimber
May 5, 2006, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: If that's the case, please try posting your next life-or-death question before you fuck up next time, OK?
cervicornis, I didn't find your question stupid
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marc801
May 5, 2006, 4:43 AM
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In reply to: I should have clarified - I had friends on the ground who were giving me a fireman belay. The only way I could have fallen to my death is if the bolts failed, my rope got cut, or God himself reached down and unbuckled my harness. |
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angry
May 5, 2006, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I should have clarified - I had friends on the ground who were giving me a fireman belay. The only way I could have fallen to my death is if the bolts failed, my rope got cut, or God himself reached down and unbuckled my harness. Or if you screwed up threading the anchor. Or if you screwed up putting the ropes through your rap device. Both have occured to far more experienced climbers than you. Don't you think a little less hubris is in order at this point?
One time, that wanker, God, reached down and tried to unbuckle my harness.
I was all like, bitch whateva!! Smacked his big fat ass finger pointing down from the clouds and finished my rap.
Dat bitch aint neva messin wit me again!!!
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miavzero
May 5, 2006, 5:04 AM
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hubris is the latest buzzword among wimpy liberals
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angry
May 5, 2006, 5:22 AM
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What the fuck is a bolter for bush?
Is that like a labial piercing specialist?
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cervicornis
May 5, 2006, 5:39 AM
Post #74 of 93
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In reply to: In reply to: I should have clarified - I had friends on the ground who were giving me a fireman belay. The only way I could have fallen to my death is if the bolts failed, my rope got cut, or God himself reached down and unbuckled my harness. Or if you screwed up threading the anchor. Or if you screwed up putting the ropes through your rap device. Both have occured to far more experienced climbers than you. Don't you think a little less hubris is in order at this point?
We've already established that I screwed up threading the anchor.
Reread my post within the context it was written... My point was that rapping was safer, IMO, than a walk-off.
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curt
May 5, 2006, 5:50 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I should have clarified - I had friends on the ground who were giving me a fireman belay. The only way I could have fallen to my death is if the bolts failed, my rope got cut, or God himself reached down and unbuckled my harness. Or if you screwed up threading the anchor. Or if you screwed up putting the ropes through your rap device. Both have occured to far more experienced climbers than you. Don't you think a little less hubris is in order at this point? We've already established that I screwed up threading the anchor. Reread my post within the context it was written... My point was that rapping was safer, IMO, than a walk-off.
Perhaps true, but only if you can't walk.
Curt
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