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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 6, 2006, 4:18 PM
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Registered: May 29, 2006
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It would be helpful to have a dedicated anchor forum, but here goes...
I've recently been setting my own TR's up, and i wanted to run a few things by everyone to make sure i'm being safe.
What i have:
~one 60m Edelweiss 10.3mm rope
~two 30' sections of Sterling 1" tubular
~one 21' cordellette (7mm Perlon)
~three 4' sewn 11/16 Sterling runners
~two 2' sewn 11/16 Sterling runners
~two locking Omega Pacific ovals
~four locking Trango biners
~one Foosball man which i stole from Slippery Rock University(His name is Foo Man...Chu, and yes he is good luck. He hangs from a prussik at the top of my climbs)(don't worry, the table was getting scrapped)
http://www.foosballcentral.com/...atalog/53205zoom.jpg
I mainly got the 11/16 runners for sport climbing in the NRG, but i take em along, just in case.
The easiest and most common method i was taught is to use water-knotted 30' sections of webbing, girth hitched around solid trees or directionally sound rock placements. Assuming that the trees are sufficiently close to the edge, i find it easiest to girth hitch these two 30' sections and equalize them with a figure eight over the edge.
I have never had to, but if i needed a third placement on account of sketchy anchors, i would either
~use the cordellete in the same girth-hitched manner, and tie it
into the figure eight along with the webbing
~use shortened and girth hitched 30' sections and a few 9/16 sewn pieces on the smaller placements, and equalize with my cordellete
For any of these setups, i use my 2 locking ovals, with gates opposed.
I have seen/heard of people tying a bowline in the very end of their webbing, running the rest around the tree and back through, and having only the one strand go to their power point...is this legit? If so, what would be the best knot to tie in the powerpoint of this setup? if not, is there any way to safely rig a setup using such a single strand technique, since some trees are farther away than others?
Does anyone have any beta on taking some inexperienced friends belaying safely with only one ATC? I'm trying to work out the logistics...as in, i need to be at the top to make sure they clip in right...but i also need to be at the bottom to do a fireman's belay, as a prussik may confuse them more.
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dingus
Jun 6, 2006, 4:30 PM
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A quick glance at your methods - sound fine to me.
Buy a 2nd belay device. Put both on the rap rope at the top. You rap after showing your noob how to clip the other one. when you leave he clips in, locks the biner and proceeds to bounce and grind down his first rappel?
You can't be in two places at once though.
Another option is to select your best pleeb prospect, and take that person out as a 3rd of a day of cragging, and get that person up to basic belay and rap speed, then use that person as "My man Friday" when you do your 'friends' training.
DMT
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slacklinejoe
Jun 6, 2006, 4:45 PM
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Pardon me if my post is overly basic than what you were shooting for - it sounds like you know what your doing but just lack experience doing it.
To clarify, you should never have the whole enchilada on 1 peice of web going over an edge - it ain't redudnant. However using webbing end to end to form 1 part of your anchor system in top rope is considered fine by most. Looped is stronger but the loads in a TR are not that high.
There are many ways of using web for anchors and ways of making master points or sliding X's and such.
My suggestion to you is to find another local experienced in setting stuff to take you the first few times you rig to double check what you are doing. It already sounds like your on the right track but the internet is a place to learn pick up tips and techniques but it doesn't replace experienced mentors to keep your butt alive.
Girth hitching slings around trees is fine, learning the "no knot" or friction hitch can be useful too. Once anchored to the tree in whatever preference you can equalize multiple strands of webbing using lots of different methods. Clove hitches, 8 on a bight, using a cordolette, webolette or limited extension sliding x all work but they are subtle reasons for picking some over others. A lot of those methods are simply personal prefences (as long as they meet SERNE anyway). I suggest you go out to the park, find some trees and practice a lot of different ways, ideally with someone with rigging experience to get a feel for the options.
You might find some useful info on This Page.
For the ATC thing - Lowering IS an option. You can lower them, then rap yourself. If they want to rap then buy a 2nd for them; they ain't that high.
If you want to be stubborn you can learn to use a munter hitch and let them use the ATC. Do as already suggested and pre-rig the ATC for them, then you rap down using the other ATC or munter that way they only need to clip in and go. *Note - munter hitches can twist the bejeesus out of your rope unless you keep the ropes perfectly parrellel and even a little bit then.
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gunkiemike
Jun 6, 2006, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: Does anyone have any beta on taking some inexperienced friends belaying safely with only one ATC? I'm trying to work out the logistics...as in, i need to be at the top to make sure they clip in right...but i also need to be at the bottom to do a fireman's belay, as a prussik may confuse them more.
Well, since you don't seem to know the difference between BELAYING and RAPPELING...
I think you need to spend some time with a more experienced person who can mentor you through these common early questions. And therefore, I recommend that you DO NOT take your even-more-inexperienced friends out to the crag to share your newfound sport.
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elron
Jun 6, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Buy a second belay device. Then, watch your friend attach it to the rope while you are still at the top. In this way, you will both be "on rappel" technically, though only one will actually rappel at a time. It can be difficult/uncomfortable to have two people attached to the rope at one time, so what i have done in the past is to not have the partner clip the biner/device directly to the harness, but rather use a couple (for redundancy) double-length slings through the belay loop/tie-in point (depending on harness type) and then clip the biner/belay device to those. This give a foot or so of slack, so the person can be ready to go, but not getting bounced around as you descend. There are other reasons for doing this as well, including the fact that its tougher to get clothing caught in the device this way, and (maybe not for novices), it provides more room to set up an autoblock.
If any of this is sounds confusing, please get instruction rather than experiment with your lives :)
kevin
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 7, 2006, 2:40 AM
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Thank you guys for your advice and concern...i mispoke on the belay, of course i meant rapell. I feel very confident setting up simple TR systems on my own and i have sought instruction from an experienced friend at school. I believe after a certain point you will only learn if you do things of your own accord, and i feel that i am at that point. I work at the climbing gym out at Slippery Rock, so i have been surrounded with such experience for some time now.
Rock on...
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rockguide
Jun 7, 2006, 4:24 AM
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A word on Natural Anchors (trees and boulders)
First and foremost, ensure that they are good.
For trees:
Go with bigger trees, sometimes refered to as "BFTs". At least thigh size.
Alive. Cuz you become the tree you rap from.
Good rootbase. give it a shake.
Tie low on the tree, when possible.
For boulders (AKA rocks) , go with bigger rocks, sometimes refered to as "BFRs".
Stable - preferably buried in the ground. preferably on a level slope or a slope away from the edge. Boulders on a slope towards the edge ... seek the freedom of flight.
check for sharp edges where the webbing goes. Pad if need be.
In both cases redundancy is good - but think of the consequence of one BFR or BFT failing. If one bolt in a two bolt anchor fails, it hangs in the air. If one of two boulders (or trees) close by an edge fails, then the belayer and climber both need an ACME(TM) Wiley Coyote umbrella. Yeah, you know the one. Eyes look up, nose droops down, shadow grows. Help sign comes up. Meep Meep.
Tie slings around the object with a water knot. Girth hitches are not as strong as there is a pulley system involved.
DO DO DO ensure there is webbing redundancy all the way to where the rope is clipped.
Brian
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 11, 2006, 8:42 PM
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Took a trip out to White Rocks (Mechanicsburg/Carlise area) yesterday with some friends. Beauuutiful day, took some muffins and fruit snacks, made some tea at the base of the climb. I setup a few different top ropes, and they worked really well, just using two 30' girth hitched loops of webbing. In some cases, i wasn't able to get the equalized point exactly where i wanted it, due to having only 15 feet to work with, because of the doubled webbing.
For some reason, using a single side of the webbing sketches me out, probably because i am not as familiar with that kind of setup. I've heard of using a friction knot with a single strand, but what type of knot do you tie in the equalized point if you only have 2 or 3 single ends of webbing? what other types of knots would you use in such a setup?
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billcoe_
Jun 11, 2006, 11:45 PM
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Old school would entail hammering those F*cking wooden dudes into the crack, and running 5mm perlon through them.
They'd be solid. Hell, we'd have killed to have that kind of crap back in the day.
We use to have to make it ourselves......... :cry:
Yup, walked uphill both ways to school, ...... :cry: ..in 40 feet of snow........... :cry:
J.Christ, I just noticed this - is that an effigy of Hitler? :?:
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Better hammer the holy F*ck out of em.
BTW, not to sound coase, but often, the worst way to figure this kind of thing out is via books and internet. Grab an expeienced local and dog them around till you have it down pat. Safest way IMO.
Good luck! :)
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slacklinejoe
Jun 12, 2006, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: I've heard of using a friction knot with a single strand, but what type of knot do you tie in the equalized point if you only have 2 or 3 single ends of webbing? what other types of knots would you use in such a setup?
Lots of ways of doing this. I'm sure many will argue the fine points or make other recommendations. I won't pretend there is 1 superior way of doing this. Matter of fact some of these are a PITA to do but they do work.
With two trees with 2 pieces:
Tie a clove hitch to each biner coming from the trees
Tie an 8 on a bight on 1 and a clove on the other (a clove on one or the other makes for easier equalization)
Tie an 8 on a bight on each one and hope you can get it equalized perfectly
With two trees with 1 long peice
Attach to 1 tree, Tie two eight on a bights next to each other in the right location, clip your biners through both, Clip something with some weight to hold it in place such as a nalgene or your shoes, run the other end back to the 2nd tree and pull it equalized then run the web around it for a no knot.
With three trees & 1 very long piece of webbing
Look up the webolette instructions but skip the "V" part - tie each end to the outter trees but have the mid point going behind the middle tree, equalize it out to a giant W and tie an overhand or 8 on a bight.
With three trees & other gear:
Hybrid any of the above steps for 2 trees or methods for 1 tree alone and use a cordolette or webolette (damn fast if you have it down and use slings around the trees but can be gear intensive)
Notes:
Any time you have the option, throwing a sling around a tree and clipping a biner to it is faster than a friction hitch.
There are 10001 ways of doing the same thing - play with as many as you can, find what you like.
For top roping use, webolettes often make more sense than cordolettes - no need to even consider cutting them up for leaver slings & threads or using them as ascending.
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cracklover
Jun 12, 2006, 3:28 PM
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First a question: You said you girth hitch both trees and also girth hitch the two loops together. This is impossible. Did you just have a memory slip from what you recall having done, or had you not really set up TRs before? Assuming it was just an honest mistake, what do you really do? Better we give advice to that than to some theoretical scenario!
In reply to: In some cases, i wasn't able to get the equalized point exactly where i wanted it, due to having only 15 feet to work with, because of the doubled webbing. For some reason, using a single side of the webbing sketches me out, probably because i am not as familiar with that kind of setup. I've heard of using a friction knot with a single strand, but what type of knot do you tie in the equalized point if you only have 2 or 3 single ends of webbing? what other types of knots would you use in such a setup?
Here's a quick, easy, and very effective way to set up your TR anchors with single-strand one-inch tubular military spec (or higher) webbing.
1 Select two trees that pretty well bracket the top of the climb.
2 Tie one end to first tree.
3 Run webbing over edge, tie a loose fig-8 on a bight where you want the anchor to be, and then bring the other end up to the other tree.
4 Tie this end to the other tree.
5 Adjust your knot so it's centered perfectly.
To get a long enough strand of webbing, just put water knots in your webbing to attach one strand to another until it's long enough to reach.
Make sense? If not, I can post a pic. It's very quick and easy because you don't have to fuss with lengths of two different strands, and getting them just right. You already have them right, because instead of having two strands come together, you only have one strand. Of course it's redundant because there are two strands equalized at the knot.
One final note - better to have good trees further back from the ledge with my single-strand method than crappy trees closer to the ledge.
GO
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mrcoolshoes1105
Jun 12, 2006, 4:15 PM
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I think you misunderstood what i was talking about. I had two bomber trees pretty much bracketing the climb. I had two 30' loops of webbing that i had tied with water knots. I girth hitched each one of these to the two trees respectively, and then tied them at an equalized point with an overhand, clipping my opposed biners into one of each of the strands above the knot.
Your method sounds pretty easy though. How do you secure the ends to the trees? What type of knot do you use? I would just use a sling around the tree and clip the webbing into a carabiner with a figure 8 on a bight, but alot of trees are too big to allow this with only 4' slings.
Keep it coming, this is helping out alot.
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