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jwood
Jul 24, 2006, 3:36 AM
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I have an ATC guide, and like using the auto lock feature to belay my second. My question is, do you need to use a locking biner for this function? It seems like a regular wire gate would suffice.
Also, why do people bitch out OP's when they ask a question that's been discussed before? It's not like anything new ever gets brought up anyway.
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vegastradguy
Jul 24, 2006, 4:01 AM
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i'd advise against it. i like my life saving systems to be bomber- and the second is depending on the belay device to save their life- it is their sole connection to the system when you're running an autoblock.
its easy enough to carry two lockers. if you're hell bent on using a smaller carabiner, pick up one of BD's positron lockers- small, light, and perfect to hang a belay device off of.
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jwood
Jul 24, 2006, 4:04 AM
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I would still hang the device from a locker, I would just have the rope going through a wire gate. I don't think that biner really gets much load.
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joshy8200
Jul 24, 2006, 4:16 AM
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It has nothing to do with the load on the carabiner. It's a matter of whether the biner is possibly going to: be in positions that could likely open a non-locking gate, the biner's gate opening could cause failure in the system...so on.
In my opinion (because I thought for a minute about this same question) both of the above are possible. So 'lock-it-up.'
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jwood
Jul 24, 2006, 4:30 AM
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I agree with you on that one. I think I'll continue to use the locker.
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jakedatc
Jul 24, 2006, 4:32 AM
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In reply to: It has nothing to do with the load on the carabiner. It's a matter of whether the biner is possibly going to: be in positions that could likely open a non-locking gate, the biner's gate opening could cause failure in the system...so on. In my opinion (because I thought for a minute about this same question) both of the above are possible. So 'lock-it-up.'
my thoughts exactly.. put a locker on the top and bottom and call it good. Why would you gain in having it be a non locker? you don't lead belay or belay from your harness with a non locker do you? (i seriously hope thats a no) If you're climbing with that few lockers.. invest in some more.
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phugganut
Jul 24, 2006, 4:34 AM
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You should always use a locker for both 'biners when using a reverso to belay off the anchor. That said, I have used a non-locker before in a pinch and just kept a close eye on it. This is the exception and not the rule however. Why take the chance if you don't need to?
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sustainedclimber
Jul 24, 2006, 4:47 AM
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I would agree with everyone here. Though you could do it, I don't understand why you would want to take the risk. The amount of weight you'd be saving from one wiregate versus one locker is inconsequential in the big picture. Lockers are made for a reason, not to mollify safety freaks. This happens to be one of their exact purposes.
-Josh
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pea_tear_griffin
Jul 24, 2006, 7:06 AM
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Even though I agree with the general decision in the forum thus far I feel compelled to post - must be because I like the sound of my own voice - so here it goes:
Coming from a strictly "book" perspective to answer the question the answer is yes, and here's why. Theoretically lockers are used at 'critical points', or any point where something rests solely on the one caribiner (eg: belay biners, master point, leaders connection point to the anchor via clove-hitch). The question then becomes is whether or not the biner in question is a critical point. If the the rope - or belay device, I'm not clear what biner is in question - were to somehow 'jump' from the open biner the the follower would be unprotected, therefore the point is critical and a locker is needed.
Throwing a dash of life into the recipe though the question of probability arises. If an event has such a low probability of happening, why worry about it? I'm not going to say the event in question is extremely likely to happen or extremely unlikely to happen as that's your own risk and therefore requires your own analysis and answer but I will say this: A lot of people still protect for unlikely risk. Example being clipping a quick-draw into a bolt while leading.
The common (maybe common?) theory for clipping the draw to the bolt pertains to the direction you will be climbing past it. If you're climbing left the the spine of the bottom biner needs to face left that way the action of falling causes the rope to run along the spine and not the gate. If the rope did run along the gate then the ropes action while falling has a small chance of opening the biner and the rope escaping.
To my knowledge the probability of this happening is almost absurd since I've never heard a story of this occurring and to my logic it seems almost impossible (if you have a story of this happening or a different view I would love to hear it, just pm me)
So there it is - sorry for novel, i really love hearing my own voice. basically it comes down to the point being a critical point and more importantly, is it a risk worth paying attention to or can it be ignored?(Remember someone's life is depending of it).
Major peaceage and enjoy the climbing everyone ~ Dustin
P.S. The manufacturer of your device recommends lockers be used, so I suppose that's another clue.
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trapdoor
Jul 24, 2006, 7:21 AM
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No you should not use anything but a locker in auto block mode with a reverso, doing otherwise is just flat out unessesary and dangerous. If you can't spare one then don't belay that way. People stress on using this belay method way too much. Re-direct or belay off the waist for christ's sake. Auto block is nice but i only use it less than 5 percent of the time.
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bill413
Jul 24, 2006, 1:22 PM
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As I read these replies, my mind is screaming wiregate!!!!!!
What happens if the biner rotates such that the load comes on that thin piece of wire? If this is the biner that is holding the rope in the device, loading across the gate of a normal or locking biner would still be ok - basically, it's just serving as a bar of metal there. But the rope running across two wires would not be my idea of a good belay setup.
If this is the anchor point for the entire belay apparatus - as the others have said - why?
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gunkiemike
Jul 24, 2006, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: Throwing a dash of life into the recipe though the question of probability arises. If an event has such a low probability of happening, why worry about it? I'm not going to say the event in question is extremely likely to happen or extremely unlikely to happen as that's your own risk and therefore requires your own analysis and answer...
Except the leader who opts to not use a locker is not doing it at "their own risk"; they are putting their partner at risk for their own convernience and/or ignorance. That's NOT an OK thing to do IMO.
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j_ung
Jul 24, 2006, 4:31 PM
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Just one exception: though I doubt it would work with a Reverso and definitely won't work with an ATC Guide, I've used two reversed and opposed non-lockers to hang my B-52 many times, with no worries. If I'm belaying two climbers with a B-52, I consider two biners a necessity. No reason they can't be non-lockers.
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antiqued
Jul 24, 2006, 8:52 PM
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Follow-on question:
If I shouldn't use a non-locker for the brake biner in an autoblock, then what are my choices for round stock lockers? My B52 seems to work much better with a round brake biner, and the gross, heavy Petzl Attache is the only one I see around. Lugging a dedicated 75gm locker around seems to defeat the light weight aspect of the B52.
Thanks
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ne_dan
Jul 24, 2006, 8:55 PM
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Dude, don't play the weight game. You're never going to win.
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gunkiemike
Jul 24, 2006, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: Follow-on question: If I shouldn't use a non-locker for the brake biner in an autoblock, then what are my choices for round stock lockers? My B52 seems to work much better with a round brake biner, and the gross, heavy Petzl Attache is the only one I see around. Lugging a dedicated 75gm locker around seems to defeat the light weight aspect of the B52. Thanks
Well, for that matter, what lightweight round-stock NON lockers are out there? Not many. I'll sell you my 1977 SMC oval if you really want light and round.
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vegastradguy
Jul 25, 2006, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: Follow-on question: If I shouldn't use a non-locker for the brake biner in an autoblock, then what are my choices for round stock lockers? My B52 seems to work much better with a round brake biner, and the gross, heavy Petzl Attache is the only one I see around. Lugging a dedicated 75gm locker around seems to defeat the light weight aspect of the B52. Thanks
the attache is pretty light and compact for a round stock locker...cant think of a smaller one off the top of my head.
that said, i switched from the Attache to the BD Rocklock about 6 months ago and havent looked back. course, i did that around the same time as I switched to the ATC-Guide....
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kricir
Jul 25, 2006, 3:22 AM
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Besides being safer, having two lockers on an auto-blocker has the benefit of a neat trick.
If you are swapping leads, there is no need for the second to safety into the anchor after cleaning the pitch. After swapping gear, clip the locker that holds the rope in the device to your belay loop, then unclip the one attaching it to the anchor and leave in there. Clip the rope going to the second (now leader) into the locker still attached to the anchor and lock it. now the other guy/gal is ready to lead the next pitch, is clipped through the anchor for pro, and you never had to rethread your device or take him/her off belay.
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aikibujin
Jul 25, 2006, 4:06 AM
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In reply to: Besides being safer, having two lockers on an auto-blocker has the benefit of a neat trick. If you are swapping leads, there is no need for the second to safety into the anchor after cleaning the pitch. After swapping gear, clip the locker that holds the rope in the device to your belay loop, then unclip the one attaching it to the anchor and leave in there.
Unless your belay loop is positioned right next to the anchor, chances are you will have to remove the belay device from the anchor BEFORE you're able to clip it into your belay loop. So for a very brief moment in time, your partner is neither anchored or on belay, they are connected only to the belay device that you held in your hands. When I switch the belay device from the anchor to my belay loop, I have my partner clip into the anchor first. It takes maybe an extra 5 seconds if they already have a sling or daisy ready to clip in with. The chance of your partner slips and falls at the moment of moving the belay device is very small, but I ask, is the 5 second time saving worth the risk?
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kricir
Jul 25, 2006, 4:20 AM
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aikibujin said
In reply to: Unless your belay loop is positioned right next to the anchor, chances are you will have to remove the belay device from the anchor BEFORE you're able to clip it into your belay loop. So for a very brief moment in time, your partner is neither anchored or on belay, they are connected only to the belay device that you held in your hands. When I switch the belay device from the anchor to my belay loop, I have my partner clip into the anchor first. It takes maybe an extra 5 seconds if they already have a sling or daisy ready to clip in with. The chance of your partner slips and falls at the moment of moving the belay device is very small, but I ask, is the 5 second time saving worth the risk?
Yes, this is why I said you want to clip the device to your belay loop before taking it off of the anchor. Please read something twice before posting a comment questioning it. The anchor is always either close enough to do this or I can climb the 1-2 feet up to it, so Its not a problem. I tell my partner before hand what I do at belays, and so far no one has had any problem with it, but if the second wants to safety in anyway Its not like Im going to stop them.
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aikibujin
Jul 25, 2006, 4:45 AM
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In reply to: Yes, this is why I said you want to clip the device to your belay loop before taking it off of the anchor. Please read something twice before posting a comment questioning it.
I understood your post perfectly, that's why I said "unless your belay loop is positioned right next to the anchor, chances are you will have to remove the belay device from the anchor BEFORE you're able to clip it into your belay loop." Maybe you should take your own advice about reading something twice.
In reply to: The anchor is always either close enough to do this or I can climb the 1-2 feet up to it, so Its not a problem.
Well I guess we have very different experiences. For me, when I use my belay device in the autoblocking mode, I try to build my anchor so the belay device hangs at head to chest high, that makes taking in slack much easier than if the device is hanging by my waist.
And now you mention that you actually climb up to your belay device to do this switch operation, which is new information, not in your first post. On easy terrain, that's certainly possible. But again, how much time are you really saving if you have to climb up and down to switch the belay device?
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