Iceman, since when is it your responsibility to make routes accessible to anyone?

Every single FA i've ever done, was because I wanted to climb that particular line. It wasn't for anyone, making the route accessible wasn't really the point. I saw a beautiful line and I went up. I've also seen ugly lines and gone up (I'm an equal opportunity employer).

2 fa's in particular would have taken on the order of 7 or so big bro's. Each line would take at least 2 of the giant gold big bro. I could have bolted the chimneys because no-one would argue that to carry so many big bro's plus offwidth size cams is inconvenient. I wonder why I didn't?

i have been climbing for about two years. one year spent in a gym. now outisde climbing for about a year. so i am hardly experienced. as of right now i have stuck to bolts (never placed a cam or pro yet). When I see a kick ass crack I dont think "gee i wish someone would bolt that thing." It just makes me want to start climbing trad even more.

Well you mentioned that the the beautiful splitter was in an entirely sport crag... What reason can you provide for not bolting it? If it's a sport crag, it's not going to be used by trad climbers anyway.

Please provide me with a reason other than convenience that you use cams instead of machine nuts with a piece of cordalette threaded through?

As stated before, bolting makes climbs more accessible to more climbers. Bolts don't prevent the route from being trad climbed. The lack thereof, however, prevents the route from being sport climbed. That's also the difference between bolting and chopping. One is making the route more accessible, the other is making it less. Can you figure out which one is selfish? This is not to say that chopping is never appropriate, that would be as ignorant as saying bolting isn't appropriate.

If we're really all about protecting the feelings, and respecting other's "'Ethics". then we should never set foot anywhere near Devil's Tower, let alone climb it. After all, it's against the ethics of the guys who were there first. But we not only go there, we climb it! Why? Because there's no good reason not to. Aside from a bunch of dogmatic indians who think the great spirit lives there, or whatever it is that makes them think it's such a holy place.

But it could be argued that we shouldn't be around there, cause they liked it how it was before we got there, and therefore, we should let that beautiful landmark go to waste... Sorry, I ain't subscribing, although I'll make an effort not to plan any trips there in June.

I would go back to the try to leave as little mark of your passage as possible argument. Reasons for this argument are that only by leaving as little trace as possible can we preserve our world as long as possible and not f--- it up. ... You just keep squirming around from one "counter argument" to the next, hoping somehow to serve the community or something, never once addressing the LNT argument in any way.

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Well, perhaps they like it better than nothing, but you gotta take what you can get. I doubt that if they had their way that that's how it would be. Also, it's a completely voluntary closure. I don't think the Tribes had any kind of counsel about it.

The LNT argument does not apply to a single crack climb at a sport crag. Say the crag has 200 8-bolt routes. 1600 bolts have been placed at the crag. That's one hell of a "trace," and adding 8 more bolts to protect the crack isn't going to make an iota of difference wrt to the "trace" that climbers have left there. There might be valid reasons not to bolt the only crack at a sport crag, but LNT isn't one of them.

*I would like to note here that I am not attacking your bolting of that flake.* The only reason I can see for bolting a crack in such a circumstance is out of lazyness, not wanting people to have to bring up their trad rack. Convenience, as you say, which is weak. Your other argument is weak too;

Thoughts?

Respecting local styles and ethics, to my way of thinking, is far more important for our climbing tribe than the false god LNT. LNT is the god that enbles folks 3000 miles away to threaten to chop a bolt they will most likely never see in their lifetimes. They are sadly misguided by macho s---, LNT blinders and the Slippery Slope Prophets of Doom.

Respect local styles, or stay the hell out.

Well, I see nothing further of note has occured other than Jay saying he threw out a dubious strawman...

...and for the record, if it can't take a fall on gear it's too unstable for your average sport climber to be on it. They shouldn't be encouraged to climb such a structure and bolting a line up it is all the more stupid by that argument.

I would disagree with you here. As discussed earlier, you can always come closer to leaving no trace, but you can never actually leave no trace. Nonetheless, a key concept here is leaving as little trace as possible.

Not bolting the crack works in this direction , and therefore is logically fluid.

*I would like to note here that I am not attacking your bolting of that flake.* The only reason I can see for bolting a crack in such a circumstance is out of lazyness, not wanting people to have to bring up their trad rack.

The only bolts we should have/leave are the ones that serve a necessary purpose, and bolts next to splitter cracks and by this rationale even protectable features, should not exist. Thats where we draw the line. Why? Minimizing impact as much as possible, which makes sense from a conservationist standpoint. The line you draw is arbitrary. The only justification being that there are bolts everywhere else, why not here.

Applying this reasoning to your above scenario the 200 bolts on the bolted lines at this crag are necessary bolts because no natural protection is available, but the bolts on the crack are unneccesary and either shouldn't be there or should be removed.

I know of a crag, no an AREA, that closely fits the description of your hypothetical area in fact. It's called City of Rocks, Idaho. The place has entirely bolted lines, splitter cracks, and mixed lines.

LNT as an overriding principle flowered in the 70's, got old in the 80's and died in the 90's. Most climbers will sacrifice LNT to convenience. Now WHAT exactly we are willing to sacrifice varies from person to person and situation to situation. I rebel against folks who insist that LNT is an absolute rule etched into the very stone we climb.

I make a huge distinction between wilderness areas where a leave little trace style is best employed, vs. frequently used crags where trails and other traces are necessary to prevent use erosion.

Lastly, if there is room for a wilderness wall sans bolts in this country then there is also room for consumer oriented cragsters. I do both. I'm not going to stop either, unless this old body of mine requires it.

Respecting local styles and ethics, to my way of thinking, is far more important for our climbing tribe than the false god LNT. LNT is the god that enbles folks 3000 miles away to threaten to chop a bolt they will most likely never see in their lifetimes. They are sadly misguided by macho s---, LNT blinders and the Slippery Slope Prophets of Doom.

Respect local styles, or stay the hell out.

LOL, no attacking THERE!

Respecting local styles and ethics, to my way of thinking, is far more important for our climbing tribe than the false god LNT. LNT is the god that enbles folks 3000 miles away to threaten to chop a bolt they will most likely never see in their lifetimes. They are sadly misguided by macho s---, LNT blinders and the Slippery Slope Prophets of Doom.

Respect local styles, or stay the hell out.

DMT

And here I thought you were an experienced trad climber. A fall onto a cam places more outward force on a flake that Chris Sharma could on steriods. Joshua Tree is full of flakes that are too fragile to be protected by cams but have survived conga lines of n00bs.

-Jay

What you say here is that we as humans just aren't going to get along, so we shouldn't really try.

What you're really saying is a few of you that actually know your way around rock want to climb it and so you bolted it.

For starters, I personally would go and climb it, especially if it was a beautiful hard splitter in granite, as these are rare. I would go back to the try to leave as little mark of your passage as possible argument. Reasons for this argument are that only by leaving as little trace as possible can we preserve our world as long as possible and not f--- it up. Now provide for me an argument against this reasoning, if you can come up with one. So far none of you "devils advocates" have been able to do this. You just keep squirming around from one "counter argument" to the next, hoping somehow to serve the community or something, never once addressing the LNT argument in any way.

None necessary. We are not the ones putting holes in the rock effecting the rock for lifetimes to come. We use cams because they are better and safer than slung machine nuts. This is not the issue though. We are talking about when it is and is not appropriate to sink holes in the rock, not what type of clean protection is best.

Makes climbs more accessible? So would building a road to the base. So would chipping the route so anyone could do it. So would building an elevator up the side of the cliff, then ANYONE could "do the route". See where your line of reasoning leads us? See whats wrong with it? f--- I hope so. But I suppose you will now argue that non-chippers are elitist. BTW, the presence of bolts ups our impact on the rock, thereby jeopardizing future access and......oh wait, this has already been addressed, my bad.

And what does this statement have to do with this thread? Explain if you wish.

You never answered ANY of my questions from my last post. Spit em out, "devils advocate". At this point I'm convinced your less trying to play the "devils advocate" and more trying to piss everyone off. Good job, if that's your goal.

Hey angry, I'm all about helping you c--- punch him. Yes, you have graduated from a punch in the face to a c--- punch, much worse IMO. Donations for this service can be sent directly to angry, by way of PMing him to get his pay pal account address. :D

There were were more white people than black people in america in the days of slavery, but thank god that vile practice still got abolished because people were willing to listen and change their minds.

'You're wrong about Devils Tower'

Lets examine what the forest service does. The service roads are there for various purposes, to access the forest for fire control and what not. As an additional effect, people camp and recreate down these roads. The roads they cut off are the ones that serve no purpose to the forest service, and they do cut off their own roads when they stop serving a purpose, or when the land begins to be abused because of their existence. So lets review this. The only roads they leave are the ones that serve a necessary purpose.

I agree. The argument is valid. However, being based on an incorrect assumption, it is unsound. Sport climbing inherently violates the "Leave No Trace" principle. But that's really beside the point. The fact is that the incremental impact of adding a few more bolts to an area covered with 1600 of them is negligible.

Try reading the whole thread then. The reason for bolting the flake has been explained.

You can apply your reasoning until your fingers a crippled with arthritis. You'll continue to come to the same flawed conclusions, because of the underlying hypocrisy of your pseudo-LNT philosophy: You can bolt a rock if it lets you climb an essentially unprotectable route. It places climbing above the environment. You can leave a "trace" when it suits your selfish purposes.

Pretty in line with the practical application of the LNT doctrine as it applies to climbing, I think.

I actually laughed out loud at that. The reason slavery was abolished was that there was this little war, see, between The North and The South... Crazy thing, it was white people who freed the slaves, cause there were more white people who were against slavery than there were for it. Your logic is so completely flawed and off base it's almost sad.

If it's really about the rock, you can lay your fears to rest. Bolting a rock doesn't destroy it. I love how people try and push this off as being a conservation issue.