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jonescd
Oct 12, 2006, 10:16 PM
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In looking at posts from another thread about an accident at Table Rock, two questions need to be asked. And yes moderator, this is important for climbers to consider as it is not uncommon or well educated to the climbing community about how these types of incidents might occur as to save lives. However, I ask in this thread that we educate and do not look for fault.
Was the addition of the third biner above the main anchor or below, if above it could pull the opposing strand across the other two gates and then put all of the force on the third which somehow failed. My other thought, and the more probable statistically, is that one strand was locked in the rappel device and the other was not, essentially allowing one strand to zip through (did they inspect to see if the ends were still even?). This type of accident could occur with even a more experienced climber. Another possibility is that the other rope had a much greater stretch elongation than or the other was of a much smaller diameter allowing a stretch effect through the device. For the knot to make a popping sound makes me think it simply popped through the biners (the pop could also cause a loss of hand control) rather then coming out of the gates (caused by by one strand zipping past the other)- thus it really needs to be determined whether the ends were without a doubt, even, post-accident. My two cents without criticism of the climber (she sounds very safety conscious) - could happen to the best of them and many of you (and not commonly taught). In my personal opinion the old style eight rings are safer than most devices for rappeling because they don't tend to lock one strand and not the other- which can happen even with a similar diameter. Hopefully we all work to educate each other as safety in climbing is not on a know or not know basis but a process of sharing information between climbers over a very long period of time. It never becomes perfected - that is why the game is a game of risk.
Chris
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clmbsfe
Oct 13, 2006, 2:21 AM
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Please don't add anything without doing your homework first.
If you read through the thread, you will find the answers to your questions.
This accident was thoroughly investigated by knowledgeable climbers, and all possibilities were evaluated prior to the posting of the final analysis.
Nothing was overlooked.
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jimdavis
Oct 22, 2006, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: In my personal opinion the old style eight rings are safer than most devices for rappeling because they don't tend to lock one strand and not the other- which can happen even with a similar diameter.
Your joking....right?
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tradrenn
Oct 22, 2006, 9:41 PM
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That looks good for caving.
Good luck to you trying to use this set up when you have too rap the roof.
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clarki
Oct 22, 2006, 9:49 PM
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C'mon man, this incident has been worked over by people who (no offence intended, really!) have a combined experience much greater than your existance on this planet. Have you read the thread completely? Do so and get back to me eh?
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billl7
Oct 22, 2006, 11:33 PM
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In reply to: And yes moderator, this is important for climbers to consider as it is not uncommon or well educated to the climbing community about how these types of incidents might occur as to save lives. However, I ask in this thread that we educate and do not look for fault.
I have to give you credit as you have picked up the scent. However, many old dogs are already wwaaayyy down the trail and passed by what you are bringing up and for good reason. If it truely is "... important for climbers to consider ..." then you owe it to yourself (being a climber I presume) to read the whole thread.
Rock on.
Bill L
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Yeah,
I read the whole thread and then tried to repost a correction the same day but was timed out on RC.com trying to send the post. The final analysis was given well done. I am giving this not to critique others critiques but just to give food for thought on accident prevention. If I've stepped on Gen Y climber toes then sorry but I still find ATC devices to be much more prone to problems with rappelling (for a multitude of reasons) than eight rings and their weight that others so despise. And if that causes a pissing match then, well, keep it on yourself.
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davidji
Oct 23, 2006, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: In my personal opinion the old style eight rings are safer than most devices for rappeling because they don't tend to lock one strand and not the other- which can happen even with a similar diameter. |
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scrapedape
Oct 23, 2006, 1:36 AM
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Because he's wearing a helmet, right?
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clmbsfe
Oct 23, 2006, 1:46 AM
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In reply to: I am giving this not to critique others critiques but just to give food for thought on accident prevention.
It seemed to me, when I read your 1st post, that you were bringing up other possible reasons for the accident. That may not have been what you intended, but that is how I interpreted it (mostly because that is how you wrote it).
Please, peeing is not necessary. There are pros and cons to all gear choices and rope techniques. IMHO the best choice depends on the climber, the route, the partner, and maybe even the weather. It is all situation dependent. For instance, Majid's rap choice might be great for me on a nice slab, after I accidentally dropped my belay device. I can rappel on a figure 8, ATC, stitch plate, munter, or whatever......and I am equally safe on them all......because I know what I am doing. I think that is the key here. You want to point out something you have noticed about rappelling on an ATC (but not an 8) and wonder if anyone else has noticed this as well. I personally have not noticed this, and find it an interesting thing to consider.
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 2:19 AM
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If anyone wants to test the general theory out about ATCs locking one rope and not the other then try this. Tie together two ropes on a TR above some very deep water with no rocks at the bottom. One rope is an 11mm and one is an 8mm thread your ATC and rappel very quickly and suddenly try to stop above the water. Post back here if you stay dry. Warning: this is a joke do not try this at home as it may result in an accident.
Sure figure eights might open biner gates if you allow the gate to be in contact with the small eye of the figure eight - which is a major operator error already. I will agree that when rappelling on two smaller diameter ropes (8.5mm) and especially a single smaller diameter rope that an ATC is preferred as it provides more friction than the figure eight. However, on long rappels where heat is being generated, a figure-eight tends to disperse heat much better than does the ATC (larger surface area). Figure eights do not tend to lock up unless you allow the rope strands to cross inside the figure eight. When used properly they will run much more smoothly and are essential for long multi-pitch rappels). I do and have rappelled on ATCs but I still have a preference to rappel on figure-eights when given a choice.
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 3:34 AM
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In reply to: If anyone wants to test the general theory out about ATCs locking one rope and not the other then try this. Tie together two ropes on a TR above some very deep water with no rocks at the bottom. One rope is an 11mm and one is an 8mm thread your ATC and rappel very quickly and suddenly try to stop above the water. Post back here if you stay dry. Warning: this is a joke do not try this at home as it may result in an accident. Sure figure eights might open biner gates if you allow the gate to be in contact with the small eye of the figure eight - which is a major operator error already. I will agree that when rappelling on two smaller diameter ropes (8.5mm) and especially a single smaller diameter rope that an ATC is preferred as it provides more friction than the figure eight. However, on long rappels where heat is being generated, a figure-eight tends to disperse heat much better than does the ATC (larger surface area). Figure eights do not tend to lock up unless you allow the rope strands to cross inside the figure eight. When used properly they will run much more smoothly and are essential for long multi-pitch rappels). I do and have rappelled on ATCs but I still have a preference to rappel on figure-eights when given a choice.
I still think your getting waaaaaaaay to hung up on 1 possible issue with a device, that's prooven to be safer, provide more friction, not kink your ropes, have multiple uses, etc.
The 8 is an outdated piece of equipment good for 2 things. Rappeling on 12mm rescue ropes, and rappeling on frozen ropes that won't bend into a tube style device.
You say an 8 deals with heat better? I'll call BS on that...if your worried about heat dissipation, get a Trango Pyramid.
Now, for your test you want someone to get going faster than they're comfortable with...then try and stop suddenly? And you call a figure 8 breaking a biner "user error"??? Your asking people to rap quickly on an uneven set of ropes...without a backup? THAT is user error.
1) If I'm rapping on different diameter ropes, the junction knot will be on the skinny rope side...so you could let go of the skinny line, and just rap on the fatter rope anyway. Problem solved.
2) I'd have a backup friction hitch around both ropes, so I could stop whenever I want. Problem also solved.
And further more, you go to say you can stop much more suddenly on a device with lesser friction (8) than with an ATC? Saying that your test works with an 8 and not an ATC? The ATC has more friction; not being able to stop on it is user error and nothing else.
So, you defend the figure 8 as a "Safer" belay device?
1) there have been numerous accidents associated with 8's breaking or opening biners. Biners break frequently....more than any other piece of gear, cause they're meant to be loaded along their axis, and that's it. When they're loaded over an edge, or torqued on from their side....they break. This is exactly what a Figure 8 can do. Break biners. The same is not true of an ATC.
2) people frequently get out of control when rapping....so you think people using a device with less friction is a safer?
Also, "figures 8's run more smoothly on multipitch rappels"? Oh, so kinking your rope up when you need to do a bunch more rappels is an "essential", and makes things go more "smoothly"? The last thing I'm carrying up on a long multipitch climb is a large, heavy, loud, single purpose, inferior device like a Fig 8.
Lastly...you recommend using an ATC to rap on a single rope of less than 8.5mm??? One, there isn't a certified single rope in that diameter...two, I'm pretty sure that's outside of its diameter usage recommendation from BD...and if it isn't, then it should be. ATC's are not meant for use with half and twin rope diameters. A jaws, ATC-XP, Reversino, etc. are meant to be used with such rope diameters.
I haven't even looked at the Table Rocks incident...but if your using these types of arguments and "logic" to explain your thoughts....then I have to agree with what everyone else has said.
Jim
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: If anyone wants to test the general theory out about ATCs locking one rope and not the other then try this. Tie together two ropes on a TR above some very deep water with no rocks at the bottom. One rope is an 11mm and one is an 8mm thread your ATC and rappel very quickly and suddenly try to stop above the water. Post back here if you stay dry. Warning: this is a joke do not try this at home as it may result in an accident. Sure figure eights might open biner gates if you allow the gate to be in contact with the small eye of the figure eight - which is a major operator error already. I will agree that when rappelling on two smaller diameter ropes (8.5mm) and especially a single smaller diameter rope that an ATC is preferred as it provides more friction than the figure eight. However, on long rappels where heat is being generated, a figure-eight tends to disperse heat much better than does the ATC (larger surface area). Figure eights do not tend to lock up unless you allow the rope strands to cross inside the figure eight. When used properly they will run much more smoothly and are essential for long multi-pitch rappels). I do and have rappelled on ATCs but I still have a preference to rappel on figure-eights when given a choice.
I still think your getting waaaaaaaay to hung up on 1 possible issue with a device, that's prooven to be safer, provide more friction, not kink your ropes, have multiple uses, etc.
The 8 is an outdated piece of equipment good for 2 things. Rappeling on 12mm rescue ropes, and rappeling on frozen ropes that won't bend into a tube style device.
You say an 8 deals with heat better? I'll call BS on that...if your worried about heat dissipation, get a Trango Pyramid.
Now, for your test you want someone to get going faster than they're comfortable with...then try and stop suddenly? And you call a figure 8 breaking a biner "user error"??? Your asking people to rap quickly on an uneven set of ropes...without a backup? THAT is user error.
1) If I'm rapping on different diameter ropes, the junction knot will be on the skinny rope side...so you could let go of the skinny line, and just rap on the fatter rope anyway. Problem solved.
2) I'd have a backup friction hitch around both ropes, so I could stop whenever I want. Problem also solved.
And further more, you go to say you can stop much more suddenly on a device with lesser friction (8) than with an ATC? Saying that your test works with an 8 and not an ATC? The ATC has more friction; not being able to stop on it is user error and nothing else.
So, you defend the figure 8 as a "Safer" belay device?
1) there have been numerous accidents associated with 8's breaking or opening biners. Biners break frequently....more than any other piece of gear, cause they're meant to be loaded along their axis, and that's it. When they're loaded over an edge, or torqued on from their side....they break. This is exactly what a Figure 8 can do. Break biners. The same is not true of an ATC.
2) people frequently get out of control when rapping....so you think people using a device with less friction is a safer?
Also, "figures 8's run more smoothly on multipitch rappels"? Oh, so kinking your rope up when you need to do a bunch more rappels is an "essential", and makes things go more "smoothly"? The last thing I'm carrying up on a long multipitch climb is a large, heavy, loud, single purpose, inferior device like a Fig 8.
Lastly...you recommend using an ATC to rap on a single rope of less than 8.5mm??? One, there isn't a certified single rope in that diameter...two, I'm pretty sure that's outside of its diameter usage recommendation from BD...and if it isn't, then it should be. ATC's are not meant for use with half and twin rope diameters. A jaws, ATC-XP, Reversino, etc. are meant to be used with such rope diameters.
I haven't even looked at the Table Rocks incident...but if your using these types of arguments and "logic" to explain your thoughts....then I have to agree with what everyone else has said.
Jim
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 5:48 AM
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[quote="jimdavis"]In reply to: Lastly...you recommend using an ATC to rap on a single rope of less than 8.5mm??? One, there isn't a certified single rope in that diameter...two, I'm pretty sure that's outside of its diameter usage recommendation from BD...and if it isn't, then it should be. ATC's are not meant for use with half and twin rope diameters. A jaws, ATC-XP, Reversino, etc. are meant to be used with such rope diameters. Jim
Jimboy
are you 100% sure, if not you may want to change this
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 7:03 AM
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Jimboy
Slow down, not all devices are bad, each have their own limitation. Some work better than other and at the end, the end user should know what is good for their job. ATC is great device but not for heavy climber with load and or to be used with a wrong size rope ( in shit out of luck situation where low diameter size rope is all you got). 8 does handle things differently, one thing for sure, it can handle any size rope even 6 mm but you need to know how to rig it otherwise you kill yourself.
Rack is the ultimate device, it can handle any size rope, it is made to do long rap like no other devices and you can increase or lower frication as you rap but at the end ,it is heavy and expensive.
Fig 8 by all standard is still the only device (beside rack) to be approved for both military and fire rescue use however, it is hard on rope and it takes practice to be good at it.
At the end and based on my experiences with such devices, almost all rappelling accident are caused by the operator and in every case, their limited familiarity with the device itself was the leading cause of their accidents.
Ps
I own every device but this baby goes with me on evey big wall
http://img86.imageshack.us/.../7836/veo0002jf0.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/.../7079/veo0005lf5.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/.../5701/veo0009ym6.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/.../4532/veo0010bc7.jpg
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 7:41 AM
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considering your defense of the dulfersitz as your "rappel method of choice", and your blatent off-color remarks in the "kidnapped climber" thread...I really don't consider you the expert on this.
you cite it being a device certified for use by fire/ military? yeah, cause they're the experts on vertical rope technique....you ever watched the fire department try and do a roped rescue? You could take a nap in the time it takes them to get their shit together. I wouldn't wanna model any of my techniques upon the recomendation of either of these institutions.
You talk about being a heavy climber on a thin rope, or having to deal with thinner ropes than you planned on....ever hear of a super-munter? If I'm packing my bag, and I know what rope I'm using, what I weight, and how it works for me....saying that the figure 8 allows you to rap on thinner ropes is a poor reason for calling it a good device. Climbers need to belay as well as rappel on the rope they use....try using a high friction mode on a figure 8 to belay with.....you can't. SO...it makes sence to use a Jaws, or Reversino, etc. You know what rope diameter you'll be using, and you can belay with the same device.
And just for kicks....tell me why a figure 8 is better to use than a super munter on thin cord? While your at it...why is the dulfersitz your rappel method of choice?
I'm still yet to see why a figure 8 is worth it's weight to any climber not using frozen 12mm lines.
Jim
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2006, 8:50 AM
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In reply to: considering your defense of the dulfersitz as your "rappel method of choice", and your blatent off-color remarks in the "kidnapped climber" thread...I really don't consider you the expert on this. you cite it being a device certified for use by fire/ military? yeah, cause they're the experts on vertical rope technique....you ever watched the fire department try and do a roped rescue? You could take a nap in the time it takes them to get their s--- together. I wouldn't wanna model any of my techniques upon the recomendation of either of these institutions. You talk about being a heavy climber on a thin rope, or having to deal with thinner ropes than you planned on....ever hear of a super-munter? If I'm packing my bag, and I know what rope I'm using, what I weight, and how it works for me....saying that the figure 8 allows you to rap on thinner ropes is a poor reason for calling it a good device. Climbers need to belay as well as rappel on the rope they use....try using a high friction mode on a figure 8 to belay with.....you can't. SO...it makes sence to use a Jaws, or Reversino, etc. You know what rope diameter you'll be using, and you can belay with the same device. And just for kicks....tell me why a figure 8 is better to use than a super munter on thin cord? While your at it...why is the dulfersitz your rappel method of choice? I'm still yet to see why a figure 8 is worth it's weight to any climber not using frozen 12mm lines. Jim
Jim
You only want to hear your voices in your head, you do not need to hear mine or any one elses, just do what you think is best for you.
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 2:52 PM
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Jim,
The ATC XP is a good choice for half ropes but not the only choice and when I said ATC I was not eliminating that option. Why get hung up on semantics? Also, how hot is your locking carbiner and ATC after a speedy 200 foot rappel using an ATC - ATCs are a fairly thin piece of metal to withstand multiple long free rappels. It is a proven fact that surface area helps to disperse the heat of the rappel device. How long have you climbed and taught climbing to say that the ATC is the best rappel device and why are rescue teams not employing the use of this device to do pick-offs of injured climbers (another limitation of an ATC vs a rescue 8). We could get hung up on semantics all day and neither one of us would be 100% right. Running smooth with less friction is exactly why I say that the eight ring is preferred for larger diameter ropes (and yes there are versions of eight rings providing more and smoother friction than the ATC). These ropes tend to get hung up in the device and then jump suddenly when unlocked. One must bring their hand above the device when it locks up just to loosen it essentially moving the safety of having the rope friction across the hip. Try rappelling with an 11mm with the ATC or ATC XP quickly and see if you don't get it to lock up on you and have this problem. Where did I say the eight was a better belay device? I don't agree with that statement other than it is easier on rope wear to belay through the small eye.
Have a good day,
Chris
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timm
Oct 23, 2006, 3:04 PM
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Hey All,
This thread has me a little confused. Can someone point me to the original post about the accident and it's analysis ??
Cheers.
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jimdavis
Oct 23, 2006, 3:05 PM
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In reply to: Jim, The ATC XP is a good choice for half ropes but not the only choice and when I said ATC I was not eliminating that option. Why get hung up on semantics? Also, how hot is your locking carbiner and ATC after a speedy 200 foot rappel using an ATC - ATCs are a fairly thin piece of metal to withstand multiple long free rappels. It is a proven fact that surface area helps to disperse the heat of the rappel device. In reply to: How long have you climbed and taught climbing to say that the ATC is the best rappel device and why are rescue teams not employing the use of this device to do pick-offs of injured climbers (another limitation of an ATC vs a rescue 8). We could get hung up on semantics all day and neither one of us would be 100% right. Running smooth with less friction is exactly why I say that the eight ring is preferred for larger diameter ropes (and yes there are versions of eight rings providing more and smoother friction than the ATC). These ropes tend to get hung up in the device and then jump suddenly when unlocked. One must bring their hand above the device when it locks up just to loosen it essentially moving the safety of having the rope friction across the hip. Try rappelling with an 11mm with the ATC or ATC XP quickly and see if you don't get it to lock up on you and have this problem. Where did I say the eight was a better belay device? I don't agree with that statement other than it is easier on rope wear to belay through the small eye. Have a good day, Chris
Rescue teams often use 12mm ropes....slot belay devices don't accept ropes this big. That's just a fact. I was on a high angle rescue team for two year, and trained with 2 other teams in the area. All use ATC for personal rappeling, except for the old army guys that still carry the 8's. Team lowers were performed with a 5 bar rack.
How hot is my device after a speedy 200 foot rappel? I dunno, I'm not a sport rappeler. Rappeling isn't meant to be done "speedily". I've yet to have a signifigant issue with heat dissipation....and I've rapped 300' on a single 11mm line before, and 200' on 10.4-9.7 lines, plenty.
Oh, and I've been teaching other climbers for about 4 years now. I've trained with rescue teams, sponcered climbers, and 2 of the top 3 guides in the northeast, and got my AMGA TRSM from one of them.
ATC's are not jerky. I've rapped on 11mm plenty of times on them. I've also used a Reverso on that diameter rope too.
One must bring their hands above the device to unlock it? Not really....how do you fix your 8 after it inverts into a girth hitch? hmm? and atc's have problems running smooth??? I dont think so.
Sorry,
Jim
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 3:19 PM
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Jim,
I've rappelled with eights for 20 years and taught with them at the college level for eight years. Never had one turn into a girth hitch yet but always have a prussik if it does happen. You sound like your AMGA course has taken you into overanalyzing things that work in the world of practice rather than in a textbook of a training course. Anyway, someday you may be faced with long multipitch rappels on Whitesides or another steep cliff and just remember what I am saying. You don't have to but at least you've been told up front. As for rescuers preferring ATCs for rappelling, that is probably correct in Maine for icy ropes as the ATC is nice for scraping the ice off - I also use the ATC for rappelling icy ropes - unless they are so thick with ice that it can't slide - in that case the eight works as you say. I've never seen rescues conducted with ATCs since you can't easily lock them off to get your hands free. I wouldn't want you to rescue me with an ATC= you'd probably heat the device to the point of it failing. Why would you eliminate that safety buffer for your personal rappelling or that of your partner. A nice thick figure eight can still work for a rescuse in a pinch while an ATC is worthless. We could go all day and you could even bring the AMGA onto the forum and it wouldn't make any difference. The ATC has limitations as does the eight. It is not outdated for its advantages over the ATC. What if you needed to get off a big wall quickly during a lightning storm are you going to wait for your ATC to cool on rappel? Send me your textbook quote on that one.
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fmd
Oct 23, 2006, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jim, The ATC XP is a good choice for half ropes but not the only choice and when I said ATC I was not eliminating that option. Why get hung up on semantics? Also, how hot is your locking carbiner and ATC after a speedy 200 foot rappel using an ATC - ATCs are a fairly thin piece of metal to withstand multiple long free rappels. It is a proven fact that surface area helps to disperse the heat of the rappel device. In reply to: How long have you climbed and taught climbing to say that the ATC is the best rappel device and why are rescue teams not employing the use of this device to do pick-offs of injured climbers (another limitation of an ATC vs a rescue 8). We could get hung up on semantics all day and neither one of us would be 100% right. Running smooth with less friction is exactly why I say that the eight ring is preferred for larger diameter ropes (and yes there are versions of eight rings providing more and smoother friction than the ATC). These ropes tend to get hung up in the device and then jump suddenly when unlocked. One must bring their hand above the device when it locks up just to loosen it essentially moving the safety of having the rope friction across the hip. Try rappelling with an 11mm with the ATC or ATC XP quickly and see if you don't get it to lock up on you and have this problem. Where did I say the eight was a better belay device? I don't agree with that statement other than it is easier on rope wear to belay through the small eye. Have a good day, Chris How hot is my device after a speedy 200 foot rappel? I dunno, I'm not a sport rappeler. Rappeling isn't meant to be done "speedily". I've yet to have a signifigant issue with heat dissipation....and I've rapped 300' on a single 11mm line before, and 200' on 10.4-9.7 lines, plenty. Oh, and I've been teaching other climbers for about 4 years now. I've trained with rescue teams, sponcered climbers, and 2 of the top 3 guides in the northeast, and got my AMGA TRSM from one of them. ATC's are not jerky. I've rapped on 11mm plenty of times on them. I've also used a Reverso on that diameter rope too. One must bring their hands above the device to unlock it? Not really....how do you fix your 8 after it inverts into a girth hitch? hmm? and atc's have problems running smooth??? I dont think so. Sorry, Jim
Most fire dept. use 15mm rope Jim. And they are a one time use. Also the ATC your friends are using may be for their personal escape system (personal choice if the oversite committe allows it), but they shouldnt be using ATC for any of the rescues. Rack bars are the NFPA recommended devices. It has been a couple of years since my training, but NFPA 1670 and 1006 should state resuce eights for bail out gear and rack bars for victim rescues. Each department should have an oversite committe to review the current NFPA standards.
NFPA standards are not the AMGA way of doing things, so they shouldnt be compared to each other...
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jonescd
Oct 23, 2006, 3:39 PM
Post #24 of 59
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Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30
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Another issue you bring up is the use of your ropes tied off with the knot as a stopper. Knots can and do stretch through carabiners and cause accidents when this happens. Didn't you read the accident report at table rock where the knot popped through the biners (although in that case they say that both ends were through all biners). Your recommendation that you could rappel on the fat rope and ignore the skinny is frightening and is of concern. You might could tie an enormous knot to try to avoid this problem but then it would get hung up 500 feet up a 1000 foot wall and you'd have to solo to retrieve it or get rescued. Your suggestion to let the knot work as a stopper is a good extra practice to follow as I do even when rappelling with a 9mm tied to a 10.5mm but to think you could take the 9mm out of your device and let the knot hold your weight against the opening of a carabiner hoping it won't stretch through is absurd.
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clmbsfe
Oct 23, 2006, 3:44 PM
Post #25 of 59
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Registered: Jun 3, 2006
Posts: 19
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For information which spurred this thread, see "Tragic Fatality at Table Rock this weekend" ...... info pages 1-7, analysis page 8, responses to analysis page 9.......
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