"Its all right mates! WE'LL SEE EM AGAIN IN ELL! AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!"
or how about
"Bummer dude."
or maybe
'Goodbye girl we didn't really know and never really met, we hardly knew thee."
I think death notices should be spontaneous and should be written by those moved to do so. I don't think there should be a program or a programmed response, not ever. The text of a programmed response is entirely meaningless.
Well, curse those nasty yeller journalists! Seriously, I'm really sorry that DZ.com has been abused by the media. I can see why you're gun-shy. That sucks.
But to answer my other question, has this happened on rc.com? Not that I know of, in the 4.5 years I've been here. For example, we (and by we I mean the paper that I work for) have reported on serious climbing accidents without referencing rc.com. Climbing accidents are not unheard of in Northern AZ since we have so much rock up here.
So I believe you that this has happened on DZ, and I sympathize with your indignation. I really do. But applying the rule to rc.com, especially when nothing like that has ever happened here to warrant it ("yet?" but still, it hasn't) and then putting the policy into place without even an announcement is... a bit of a fumble. Letting users just stumble upon it and then draw their own conclusions about your motivations and style is not something you should want.
I don't think you had Net Nazi intentions but I think the whole thing could have been handled better. Even if you don't plan on reversing the decision, at least tell your users at the outset about a change and explain why.
Dec 7, 2006, 8:14 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] In memoriam: TO READ, PLEASE REGISTER!!!
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climbsomething wrote:
So I believe you that this has happened on DZ, and I sympathize with your indignation. I really do. But applying the rule to rc.com, especially when nothing like that has ever happened here to warrant it ("yet?" but still, it hasn't) and then putting the policy into place without even an announcement is... a bit of a fumble. Letting users just stumble upon it and then draw their own conclusions about your motivations and style is not something you should want.
Granted. We certainly could have done a better job informing users up front as to why this decision was made. People die and loose friends climbing (as we've unfortunately just seen again) and this is a simple precaution to help protect those who are most impacted by these events when they do occur. I believe you when you say this has never happened on RC.com, but we do think that in this case prevention is better than cure.
You have to register and log in to post a photo or make a post. To us, this is a bigger deal.
Dec 7, 2006, 8:21 PM
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Re: [coldclimb] In memoriam: TO READ, PLEASE REGISTER!!!
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coldclimb wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
SANGIRO. THIS IS A ROCKCLIMBING SITE. NOT A SKYDIVING SITE.
I was going to say the same thing. Looks like both you and Hillary beat me to it.
There are some parallels to be sure, but our community is NOT dz.com.
Of course not. But we can agree that it is the same media which covers incidents in both activities right? I used that as a simple example. I could have grabbed an example from any "risky" sport or activity where fatalities occur which often get reported in a sensational way in the media. It's not the nature of the site or community that's the issue or under discussion, it's the behavior of the media.
(This post was edited by sangiro on Dec 7, 2006, 8:23 PM)
The difference, however, is that we don't lose people once a week, and therefore we draw very little media attention. In my five years being here, I can remember two users who have died. One was hit by a car and the other was indeed a climbing accident. Maybe someone else can recall more than me. I understand you may not be aware of this, having not been a user here very long.
Climbers don't die all that much more often than non climbers. We don't have the same issue that DZ.com has, why should we suffer through the same precautions?
Then there's the fact that all it takes is free registration. What media sleeze is going to be stopped by that, when they push through so many other obstacles to get their story.
(This post was edited by coldclimb on Dec 7, 2006, 8:29 PM)
Well then let me say that I think it was really foolish to make that forum private, and make community, soap box, and campground public.
but I suppose that's the sort of site we've got now. Minimal user imput, decisions made by people who don't climb, but can readily tell us all how climbing is just like skydiving.
I don't give a shit about your little skydiving analogy. I don't skydive. I'm not interested in reading about skydiving. I am somewhat resentful that you guys think it's the same thing.
I have to back up managements decision on this one (as much as it kills to do so). It has happened in the climbing community up here in NS, once for sure and I think twice. Not from RC.com but from a forum that we use for eastern Canada climbing (climbeasterncanada.com). It sucked big time when we discussed the death and then found out from one of the survivors that the family did not want us to get into specifics just yet. Sure enough the media came out with quotes directly from our forum. I agree with adding a little difficulty with accessing these posts and not having a search engine running all over them.
Dec 7, 2006, 8:54 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] In memoriam: TO READ, PLEASE REGISTER!!!
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caughtinside wrote:
Well then let me say that I think it was really foolish to make that forum private, and make community, soap box, and campground public.
but I suppose that's the sort of site we've got now. Minimal user imput, decisions made by people who don't climb, but can readily tell us all how climbing is just like skydiving.
I don't give a shit about your little skydiving analogy. I don't skydive. I'm not interested in reading about skydiving. I am somewhat resentful that you guys think it's the same thing.
"you're doing a hell of a job, brownie"
It was a pleasant, civilized, and respectful conversation up until this point.
Dec 7, 2006, 10:59 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] In memoriam: TO READ, PLEASE REGISTER!!!
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I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad one, I don't know if Brent was contacted or not, I don't know how faithful to the original version the mag was, I don't even know if this is truly relevant, but this kinda stuck out at me (despite the fact that GG (happily) didn't die)...
I would guess that Brent voluntarily submitted the letter. From the sounds of Brent's post, though, he did mean to send them something, he's just surprised thatit was picked for publication. Climbing, R&I and newspapers publish letters that are purposefully sent to them so I can't imagine Gripped being different (?). Although, some publications tell letter-writers beforehand that their letter has been selected for publication, but some don't.
I should check out that copy (yes, we get Gripped in Arizona).
Regarding the requirement to be logged in to view the Accidents and Injuries forum:
It was not done on a whim. The rationale for this requirement was to prevent (or at least make it harder) for the general media to converge on the forum like vultures every time there is an accident or fatality. As soon as the contents of this forum shows up in Google's search results, they'll come. They will directly quote users, even out of context, all in the name of a sensational story.
On the basis of what experience are you making this claim? We have had many accidents and a handful of fatalities in the years that I have been associated with this site, and, to the best of my knowledge, the media have paid no attention to any of them. Quite the contrary, we have rarely, if ever, been able to find information in the media about the details of climbing accidents; climbing accidents just don't seem to be that newsworthy.
In reply to:
And unfortunately, in our sport there all too frequently is something to manufacture a sensational story about.
Since that essentially never happens with respect to rock climbing accidents, I have to assume that by "our" sport you are referring to your and Sangiro's sport -- skydiving.
The general public should be allowed to freely view the Injuries and Accidents forum. On the one hand, your claim about inappropriate media converge of climbing accidents is simply untrue; the claim is either entirely baseless, or it relies on the incorrect assumption that the media cover climbing accidents with the same lurid interest that they do skydiving accidents.
On the other hand, every time that a member of this site has died, whether while climbing or not, non-climbing surviving family and friends have taken comfort in the thoughts about the deceased posted in the Accidents and Injuries forum. We know this because some surviving loved ones have join the site just to express their gratitude. We have no idea how many others have not join the site, but have been comforted by reading the threads. Nor do we know how many would never have seen these threads had they not been able to view them as non-members.
I implore you to open the A & I thread to the general public. No harm has ever come to any climber, dead or alive, as a result of this forum's long history of being available to non-members. And we have done immeasurable good by allowing survivors of the deceased to view threads remembering their loved ones. Closing the forum does way more harm than good. Please open it back up.
While I ultimately appreciate your reasoning, I think this is a pretty silly assumption and an insult to responsible media- which is actually the vast majority. If you could supply me with one or two or three examples of a reporter at the Podunk Daily Star quoting an rc.com accident thread out of context, I'd stand corrected (and actually be quite peeved at my brethren for doing such a thing). Did you have a nasty experience like this over on DZ?
Hillary,
Like Reno I too think it's great that you're standing up for your profession. Unfortunately your claims above are simply not a reflection of reality at all. While we will reach out to anyone who makes a bona fide attempt to find the facts and report on an incident, our responsibility on this site is first and foremost to the climbing community and the families of those involved, not to the media.
DURRR! Then let them view the Injuries and Accidents forum.
In reply to:
On Dropzone.com, due to the nature of our sport, it is not uncommon to say "good bye" to a friend every weekend. Our experience with the media for more than ten years has shown us that while there are responsible journalists like those at the Podunk Daily Star out there, they are unfortunately outnumbered by those looking to put a body to a story with a headline like:
"Skydiver plummets to death in front of family" "Skydivers living in fear for the killer in their midst" "Father of 3 dies in final death leap."
I have no doubt that happens with skydiving accidents. I can assure you it does not with climbing accidents. Unless a party of 10 dies in an avalanche on Everest, the media takes no interest. Routine climbing accidents just aren't that newsworthy. Probably because they're not sensational enough, but for whatever reason, your extrapolation of skydiving news coverage to climbing is not valid.
So I believe you that this has happened on DZ, and I sympathize with your indignation. I really do. But applying the rule to rc.com, especially when nothing like that has ever happened here to warrant it ("yet?" but still, it hasn't) and then putting the policy into place without even an announcement is... a bit of a fumble. Letting users just stumble upon it and then draw their own conclusions about your motivations and style is not something you should want.
Granted. We certainly could have done a better job informing users up front as to why this decision was made. People die and loose friends climbing (as we've unfortunately just seen again) and this is a simple precaution to help protect those who are most impacted by these events when they do occur. I believe you when you say this has never happened on RC.com, but we do think that in this case prevention is better than cure.
You have to register and log in to post a photo or make a post. To us, this is a bigger deal.
Thanks for the good spirit of your reply.
No, to the real "us" it is not a bigger deal. Stop protecting "us" from things we don't want to be protected from. The only thing you are doing is hindering the family and friends of accident victims from reading the outpourings of the hearts of their friends on this site.
I for my part wonder what is the real interest of this forum. Posts are either of people looking for an online diagnosis, or people complaining about their tendonitis (people, warm up and stop climbing when you start feeling a pain!!!), or people looking for blood and death. So locked or open, go see a doctor, watch ER, or go climb.
Well then let me say that I think it was really foolish to make that forum private, and make community, soap box, and campground public.
but I suppose that's the sort of site we've got now. Minimal user imput, decisions made by people who don't climb, but can readily tell us all how climbing is just like skydiving.
I don't give a shit about your little skydiving analogy. I don't skydive. I'm not interested in reading about skydiving. I am somewhat resentful that you guys think it's the same thing.
"you're doing a hell of a job, brownie"
It was a pleasant, civilized, and respectful conversation up until this point.
One in every crowd.
Damn Reno your feathers ruffle in the slightest breeze these days. Caughtin The Barbarian, how dare you Sir, HOW DARE YOU....
(I have no idea if these simple tags work anymore)
The forum in question is 100% open to public viewing. For many of the people who posted to that thread, that is the first and likely only time they were moved to post to a climbing thread.
I'm perfectly serious, if you really want to know the answer of why an A&I forum should be open to the you should read that thread. I won't presume to tell you what you should think of it - just read it. DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 8, 2006, 3:05 PM)
Of course this thread is moving and many posts are definitely interesting, either coming from the family or from the community. But such a thread could be posted in a General forum as well. I go through I&A forums in french as well, and they are not more interesting. Always the same questions with so little medical and physiological knowledge that it can become ridiculous. But this is my opinion, and some exceptional threads can arise sometimes.
Dec 8, 2006, 6:06 PM
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Re: [thomasribiere] In memoriam: TO READ, PLEASE REGISTER!!!
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thomasribiere wrote:
Of course this thread is moving and many posts are definitely interesting, either coming from the family or from the community. But such a thread could be posted in a General forum as well. I go through I&A forums in french as well, and they are not more interesting. Always the same questions with so little medical and physiological knowledge that it can become ridiculous. But this is my opinion, and some exceptional threads can arise sometimes.
Well, in the "technical" climbing forum you can't go but a few posts before spotting some patently ridiculous bumbling n00b nugget. It's the norm, not the exception, in pretty much all forums.
18 /
60%
). It has happened in the climbing community up here in NS, once for sure and I think twice. Not from RC.com but from a forum that we use for eastern Canada climbing (climbeasterncanada.com). It sucked big time when we discussed the death and then found out from one of the survivors that the family did not want us to get into specifics just yet. Sure enough the media came out with quotes directly from our forum. I agree with adding a little difficulty with accessing these posts and not having a search engine running all over them. 
